Christians Know The Truth

[NotBlinded]

[Love is] wanting the greatest good for a person.

 

You certainly don't act like this is what you want for any of us.

 

If you did want this, your behavior would be very, very different from what it's actually been.

Yes, and he asks how his behavior bars the way to the "kingdom of heaven." Who the hell would want it if he is a representative of it?

[Shyone]

 

ANd then 12 of his apostles saved John were all killed for their faith as well.

This isn't in the Bible.

What extra-biblical source are you using to establish this as history?

Once again, hypocrisy comes a callin'.

 

"If it isn't Biblical, then it's not Christianity."

 

Not only isn't it biblical, it isn't even historical. Well, that's a bit redundant, but you get my point.

[Shyone]

 

And how about the references that say to do things that just aren't done very much? Like washing feet? That ritual never caught on.

 

John 13:12-15

12. So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13. Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15. For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you.

 

You aren't a True Christian unless you wash someones feet.

 

This will be the last post i make in this thread, I'm going to be making some threads about doctrines and such so that I can elaborate on what biblical salvation, what a true christian is etc, sin there seems to be a want to understand biblical doctrine.

 

1. My contention is if it isn't biblical it isn't true. Grafting on doctrine is the same as a false doctrine.

 

<snip>

 

5. Washed in the blood is definately biblical

 

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

there it is right there.

 

But like I said I'm going to get more active in making threads so I can as was suggested above elaborate on biblical doctrine.

First, I note you skipped over the Washing one's feet thing. The way it's written, it carries as much weight as "Take, Eat, for this is my body."

 

Second, being cleansed by blood is not being washed in the blood. Jesus bled, sins cleansed, is another way of saying that his death saved people from sin.

 

What does that mean anyway? How can killing one person save another person?

 

The Biblical use of sacrifice - of humans, animals or crops - is nonsensical. What exactly did Jephthah accomplish by sacrificing his daughter to Yahweh? Was Yahweh pleased?

 

The "sweet savor" of burning meat is pleasing to God? God likes things that are burned? Clearly the intent of the burned sacrifice was to send the essence into the "heavens" which we now know as the atmosphere.

 

20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

 

Personally, I prefer the version of the ancients:

 

[so Uta-Napishtim leaves his ship and on the top of a mountain makes sacrifice to propitiate the

gods (Gen 8:20), and the gods, hungry because their food had failed them since the drowning of

the temples,]

scented the sweet savour, (Gen 8:21)

And like flies the gods gathered above the sacrifice;

[and decided never again to risk the destruction of man (Gen 8:21 )

[NotBlinded]

 

Personally, I prefer the version of the ancients:

 

[so Uta-Napishtim leaves his ship and on the top of a mountain makes sacrifice to propitiate the

gods (Gen 8:20), and the gods, hungry because their food had failed them since the drowning of

the temples,]

scented the sweet savour, (Gen 8:21)

And like flies the gods gathered above the sacrifice;

[and decided never again to risk the destruction of man (Gen 8:21 )

No way! Do you mean that even the bible is extrabiblical?

 

 

 

[centauri]

 

ANd then 12 of his apostles saved John were all killed for their faith as well.

This isn't in the Bible.

What extra-biblical source are you using to establish this as history?

Once again, hypocrisy comes a callin'.

 

"If it isn't Biblical, then it's not Christianity."

 

Not only isn't it biblical, it isn't even historical. Well, that's a bit redundant, but you get my point.

The only major names I can recall being killed in the New Testament were John the Baptist, Stephen, and James the brother of John.

As far as I know, the nature of the deaths of the "12 apostles" isn't confirmed outside of the traditional stories of the Catholic Church.

[Shyone]

 

ANd then 12 of his apostles saved John were all killed for their faith as well.

This isn't in the Bible.

What extra-biblical source are you using to establish this as history?

Once again, hypocrisy comes a callin'.

 

"If it isn't Biblical, then it's not Christianity."

 

Not only isn't it biblical, it isn't even historical. Well, that's a bit redundant, but you get my point.

The only major names I can recall being killed in the New Testament were John the Baptist, Stephen, and James the brother of John.

As far as I know, the nature of the deaths of the "12 apostles" isn't confirmed outside of the traditional stories of the Catholic Church.

Well, there's Judas.

 

Was James, the brother of John an apostle; one of the "12"?

[Guest FaithDefender619]

my faith was not very deep.

 

.... ..... HOLY MOLY!

 

Now this is the first time i "heard" it. My faith is soooo deep that i STILL try to fit god back into your little box, just so i can talk down to your level.

 

For me leaveing chrisitanity was not a matter of god not doing much for me, God has prooven himself plenty for me. IN fact I found chrisitanity too small a place for US. It got to the point where to keep on NOT questioning theology and chruch doctrine in light of scripture was to begin to LIE to the LORD by being there.

 

IN christianity I was so concerned about having the right theology and seeing so many preversions and lies in denominations that I sat down one day and said "lord, I cant seem to know which truth is YOUR truth. And I am tired of the devil's lies." And so with pills in my and the intent to go ask god in person, I waited on my salvation.

 

Luckilly for me it came in the form of a concerned friend whom I had not spoken with in a long time calling me. This friend was christian and I strung my chrisitanity along a few more years. Untill I found that universalist theology was better than my baptist theology but still no agreement within god's church.

 

 

I wonder if that friend had been mormon woudl I be at the ex-mormon site?

 

MY faith was not so DEEP.... My practice of chrisitanity was to DIE dailly to sin and if the church was not going to help me succeed then maybe Buddha could.

 

I left christianity because it did not give me tools to obey and take hold of christianity's promises.

 

I belive god is truth. I was SOOOOOO fundimental, yet i was honest. I was so fundimental that I promised anyone that if they chould show me a contradiction that I cant refute then I would have to admit it could not BE GOD'S truth.

 

When I found acceptible contradictions I got on the floor, face down and sobbed... begging god to not make me quit the faith. But he did.

 

And I VOWED that if there is a true truth, I would find GOD in that truth.

 

DONT try to tell me about who's faith is so shallow!

 

IZM

 

1. If your church was following unbiblical doctrine then I think your gripe wasn't with the bible or even christianity but with your church. And I've already stated that a lot of churches follow unbiblical doctrine and I got basically called a hate monger for saying that.

 

2. Well killing yourself isn't going to get you to heaven. As far as their being so many false doctrine and false teachings was trying to kill yourself the most logical answer to the question? No. The bible says in Matthew 24:11-14

 

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And

because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

 

Jesus taught that plenty of perversions of His teaching would come (see the kingdom parable about the woman and the leaven) however there is only one true teaching, its found in the bible and following church doctrine and following your pastors doctrine and all this stuff is no substitute for reading scripture, meditating on scripture and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you scripture. Its not God's fault you tried committing suicide, its your fault.

 

3. And that's a good plan but since when is it the church's responsibility to "help" you die to sin daily? Indeed we are to encourage each other, we are to rebuke and exhort one another, pray for each other etc etc, but the church's job isn't to help you die to sin its yours. Especially in our day and age where sin isn't really seen as all that bad. Trying to die to sin daily doesn't prove you had a deep faith, it proves you were the seed that fell on stony ground and grew up and endured for a moment but after some questions and/or persecution came along you fell away.

 

4. You're telling me the Holy Spirit isn't enough? Did you really even have the Holy Spirit working in your life?

 

5. Which god do you believe is the truth? The demons believe in god and they tremble, so basically you have the devils faith which isn't really faith at all. So instead of searching these things out in scripture earnestly you fell on the ground crying and gave up? Again you didn't have a depth in faith. There were people in the early church and even today who actually get beat for believing and they fall away after that. You fell away after some supposed contradictions. I've been hit with the bible contradictions argument before and normally they aren't really contradictions but fallacies in understanding or using non-King James Bibles. But at any rate God didn't make you or let you fall away you did that yourself. You departed from the faith because you didn't have a deep faith in the first place. I don't mean to demean you but this is what the bible says. If you are fallen away or departed from the faith, the bible says your faith was in vain. You wasted your time. But its not God's fault, it yours. God doesn't keep you in the faith, its a synergistic relationship not one of monergism.

 

6. I have to tell you your faith wasn't deep because that is what the bible says about those who fall away. The parable of the seed sower says it. That faith had no depth of earth and when the sun (trouble or persecution) came you withered away. Its the same story. It was my story when I was a catholic and fell into atheism. I don't know why people are so unwilling to admit this you know it's true.

[bdp]

you can't tell ANYONE here about how deep their faith was.

 

and btw this is something I hate about Xtians that come here, that you think you know more about us from what 'the bible' says than you can learn from actually talking to us.

[insanezenmistress]

well it isn't a suprise that you have a neat little answer to make my whole struggle a romp in the kiddie pool.

 

In fact all the emotions that lead to my crying out and searching for truth must have been quite flimsy. Simply becasue you sit their on your side of the faith, untouched.

 

I will go on then.

 

After i got up from my crying and my flimsy vow making, i trusted god to lead me to truth. I prayed "lord if you are truth i trust you to lead me to truth." I think i was inspired by a psalm.

 

AH then my spiritaul world opened up, i did grow in faith. Not doctrine perhaps but i got down to the bisiness of finding out who god was, how he revealed himself to me. But my stiyign did not stop there. I explored psycology too.

 

And when my god lead me to understand that he was merely a subjective experience, and that many time what people call the devil is merely their own psychological shortcommings, i started to let go of my god cozy.

 

As for wanting to kill myself... well i suppsoe you think it was becasue i was sad.

 

izm

[Guest FaithDefender619]

 

And how about the references that say to do things that just aren't done very much? Like washing feet? That ritual never caught on.

 

John 13:12-15

12. So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13. Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15. For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you.

 

You aren't a True Christian unless you wash someones feet.

 

This will be the last post i make in this thread, I'm going to be making some threads about doctrines and such so that I can elaborate on what biblical salvation, what a true christian is etc, sin there seems to be a want to understand biblical doctrine.

 

1. My contention is if it isn't biblical it isn't true. Grafting on doctrine is the same as a false doctrine.

 

<snip>

 

5. Washed in the blood is definately biblical

 

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

there it is right there.

 

But like I said I'm going to get more active in making threads so I can as was suggested above elaborate on biblical doctrine.

First, I note you skipped over the Washing one's feet thing. The way it's written, it carries as much weight as "Take, Eat, for this is my body."

 

Second, being cleansed by blood is not being washed in the blood. Jesus bled, sins cleansed, is another way of saying that his death saved people from sin.

 

What does that mean anyway? How can killing one person save another person?

 

The Biblical use of sacrifice - of humans, animals or crops - is nonsensical. What exactly did Jephthah accomplish by sacrificing his daughter to Yahweh? Was Yahweh pleased?

 

The "sweet savor" of burning meat is pleasing to God? God likes things that are burned? Clearly the intent of the burned sacrifice was to send the essence into the "heavens" which we now know as the atmosphere.

 

20. And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21. And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

22. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

 

Personally, I prefer the version of the ancients:

 

[so Uta-Napishtim leaves his ship and on the top of a mountain makes sacrifice to propitiate the

gods (Gen 8:20), and the gods, hungry because their food had failed them since the drowning of

the temples,]

scented the sweet savour, (Gen 8:21)

And like flies the gods gathered above the sacrifice;

[and decided never again to risk the destruction of man (Gen 8:21 )

 

1. Was there a point in you talking about feet washing?

 

2. Cleanse and washed are the same thing. Our sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus but my sins are not separate from me. I committed my sin and I would be cast into hell not my sins. Pslam 5:5 says God hates ALL workers of iniquity. Does doesn't hate my iniquity He hates me too. So I am washed in the blood of Jesus not just my sins as we are inseparable.

 

3. Because the wrath and justice of God had to be appeased. He didn't get the exact punishment we deserved but He did receive a just substitute. And if He didn't take that on, we would never be reconciled to God.

 

4. Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter.

 

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html

 

 

5. No the point was to do as God said in the Law of Moses. The point of the burnt offering was to for a full explanation

 

http://bible.org/seriespage/law-burnt-offerings-leviticus-11-17

 

6. The old epic of gilgamesh one eh.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SU8BWgmtqCY

[bdp]

...'god' hates you?

[Guest FaithDefender619]

you can't tell ANYONE here about how deep their faith was.

 

and btw this is something I hate about Xtians that come here, that you think you know more about us from what 'the bible' says than you can learn from actually talking to us.

 

I sure can. The bible talks about people who fall away. You may have had faith but it had no REAL depth and your fallen away state is only proof of that.

 

And I do talk to you. And 100% of the time you confirm what the bible says without fail. Many of you may not want to admit it, many of you need to have been a deep Christian because it gives you street cred as an atheist but whatever your reason for not admitting that your faith wasn't really that deep it wasn't.

 

And what makes you think you are the only atheist I've talked to? I used to be an atheist for the 1st 6 years of my adult life. I talk to atheist on atleast 4 other forums, as well as in real life. And 100% of the time what the bible says is TRUE. Yes they did all these things (church, ministries, vowed to stay away from sin, "repent", ministries etc etc) but that is not indicative of a real faith. What is indicative, is the one thing you failed on, perseverance in the face of question and adversity. And in that you all failed at it. Remember the early church endured far worse than having than not being able to answer a few questions from the bible, questioning their faith or whatever. They were getting killed in some very ferocious ways. Crucified, burned, thrown to wild animals for entertainment, beaten, scourged etc. And they not only kept the faith many went to their deaths singing with joy in their hearts. So to tell me that you or others had real and deep faith when the biblical as well as historical christians faith was enough to keep them going even while facing death, whilst yours didn't even see you through a relative nudge, I'm sorry but you didn't have real faith. The bible says it was in vein.

 

Again I'm not trying to mock anybody but seriously the truth is the truth. In light of what biblical faith entails (perseverance and willingness to give everything up to and including your life) you didn't have it.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

...'god' hates you?

 

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

[Shyone]

 

1. Was there a point in you talking about feet washing?

 

You're not a True Christian. You don't wash feet. But you conveniently ignore Jesus's example.

 

4. Jephthah did not sacrifice his daughter.

 

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jepthah.html

Yes, he did.

 

30. And Jephthah vowed a vow unto Jehovah, and said, If thou wilt indeed deliver the children of Ammon into my hand,

31. then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, it shall be Jehovah's, and I will offer it up for a burnt-offering.

32. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and Jehovah delivered them into his hand.

33. And he smote them from Aroer until thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto Abelcheramim, with a very great slaughter. So the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34. And Jephthah came to Mizpah unto his house; and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; besides her he had neither son nor daughter.

35. And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me; for I have opened my mouth unto Jehovah, and I cannot go back.

36. And she said unto him, My father, thou hast opened thy mouth unto Jehovah; do unto me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth, forasmuch as Jehovah hath taken vengeance for thee on thine enemies, even on the children of Ammon.

37. And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may depart and go down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my companions.

38. And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew not man. And it was a custom in Israel,

40. that the daughters of Israel went yearly to celebrate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

 

They fucking celebrated it!

 

 

 

6. The old epic of gilgamesh one eh.

 

The story preceded the Biblical story, and had multiple gods instead of one.

 

So that story, which was in fact "plagiarized" by the Hebrews from an older culture, changed the wording to their theology.

 

The Flood never happened. It was a story! It's mythology!

 

Not only that, it's Pagan mythology. With multiple gods. You are worshipping the remnant of the pantheon of a civilization whose gods you don't even want to acknowledge, but unless they are real, the story of Noah isn't real.

 

"It is written."

[Ouroboros]

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

I don't get it. God hates us? Cool. Well, that shows his true nature now, doesn't it.

 

Besides, you were never a true atheist. You were an atheist by name only and not deep enough. Your agenda was always to try to pretend to be an atheist first and the convert to Christianity so you could claim that you had been an atheist.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

well it isn't a suprise that you have a neat little answer to make my whole struggle a romp in the kiddie pool.

 

In fact all the emotions that lead to my crying out and searching for truth must have been quite flimsy. Simply becasue you sit their on your side of the faith, untouched.

 

I will go on then.

 

After i got up from my crying and my flimsy vow making, i trusted god to lead me to truth. I prayed "lord if you are truth i trust you to lead me to truth." I think i was inspired by a psalm.

 

AH then my spiritaul world opened up, i did grow in faith. Not doctrine perhaps but i got down to the bisiness of finding out who god was, how he revealed himself to me. But my stiyign did not stop there. I explored psycology too.

 

And when my god lead me to understand that he was merely a subjective experience, and that many time what people call the devil is merely their own psychological shortcommings, i started to let go of my god cozy.

 

As for wanting to kill myself... well i suppsoe you think it was becasue i was sad.

 

izm

 

1. I'm not making it anything. I'm simply saying that you blaming it on christianity and God is simply illogical. If you had a real faith and your strength was really in the Lord then you wouldn't be trying to do something so foolish as to try to kill yourself. If your church followed unbiblical doctrine then leave, there are plenty of churches around and if not you can start your own fellowship its not that hard. But to blame the "church" for your condition is a copout.

 

2. I'm not saying the emotions weren't real, I mean if you tried killing yourself then obviously they were real, however the cause and object of those emotions are misplaced. Your issue isn't with the bible or christianity it was the church you attended. And like I said if they were teaching false hoods get up and leave and don't look back. I went to several churches when I first got saved and they were all teaching unbiblical non-sense. However that isn't God's fault nor is it a reason to try to kill myself.

 

3. So in essence you departed from the faith and then gave in to subjective feelings and so on and then let that be your guide. Well to each His own but my friend I warn you sternly that the wrath of God is upon you unless you turn back to the true God and worship Him in spirit and in truth and not in some churches false doctrine.

 

4. No I think it was because you were unstable as is normally the case with most suicide attempts.

[bdp]

you can't tell ANYONE here about how deep their faith was.

 

and btw this is something I hate about Xtians that come here, that you think you know more about us from what 'the bible' says than you can learn from actually talking to us.

 

I sure can. The bible talks about people who fall away. You may have had faith but it had no REAL depth and your fallen away state is only proof of that.

 

And I do talk to you. And 100% of the time you confirm what the bible says without fail. Many of you may not want to admit it, many of you need to have been a deep Christian because it gives you street cred as an atheist but whatever your reason for not admitting that your faith wasn't really that deep it wasn't.

 

And what makes you think you are the only atheist I've talked to? I used to be an atheist for the 1st 6 years of my adult life. I talk to atheist on atleast 4 other forums, as well as in real life. And 100% of the time what the bible says is TRUE. Yes they did all these things (church, ministries, vowed to stay away from sin, "repent", ministries etc etc) but that is not indicative of a real faith. What is indicative, is the one thing you failed on, perseverance in the face of question and adversity. And in that you all failed at it. Remember the early church endured far worse than having than not being able to answer a few questions from the bible, questioning their faith or whatever. They were getting killed in some very ferocious ways. Crucified, burned, thrown to wild animals for entertainment, beaten, scourged etc. And they not only kept the faith many went to their deaths singing with joy in their hearts. So to tell me that you or others had real and deep faith when the biblical as well as historical christians faith was enough to keep them going even while facing death, whilst yours didn't even see you through a relative nudge, I'm sorry but you didn't have real faith. The bible says it was in vein.

 

Again I'm not trying to mock anybody but seriously the truth is the truth. In light of what biblical faith entails (perseverance and willingness to give everything up to and including your life) you didn't have it.

 

 

Bullshit, purely and simply. And by the way I was an atheist before I was a Xtian too.

[bdp]

...'god' hates you?

 

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

 

Yeah, wonder why the fuck that is? You have no idea what having your 'faith' tested really is, but someday you will. Good goddam luck.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

I don't get it. God hates us? Cool. Well, that shows his true nature now, doesn't it.

 

Besides, you were never a true atheist. You were an atheist by name only and not deep enough. Your agenda was always to try to pretend to be an atheist first and the convert to Christianity so you could claim that you had been an atheist.

 

My point exactly if I said God hates you the emotions and angry responses would come flowing in. But does God hate you? Psalm 5:5 says God hates all workers of iniquity. Pslam 7:11 says God is angry with the wicked EVERYDAY. This isn't to say that God hates in terms of how humans hate, that once God hates you that's it He's done with you. But sinners do have wrath stored up with God. Does that show His true nature? Well if as a christian you were taught that God was this good ol' gandpappy in the sky, then yeah. God is love but God isn't JUST love. He is long suffering and compassionate, BUT He also has anger and wrath.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

...'god' hates you?

 

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

 

Yeah, wonder why the fuck that is?

 

I know for a bunch of people who claimed to have read the bible as much as they claimed to have, you would think they would already know what I'm talking about.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

...'god' hates you?

 

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

 

Yeah, wonder why the fuck that is? You have no idea what having your 'faith' tested really is, but someday you will. Good goddam luck.

 

What makes you think I don't know what having my faith tested is? The early church and christians in other nations where its illegal to even be a christian could say the same to you and me. So lets not act like we've had it so bad. Your test of faith compared to what it could have been, wasn't all that bad, however you still fell away.

[Shyone]

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

I don't get it. God hates us? Cool. Well, that shows his true nature now, doesn't it.

 

Besides, you were never a true atheist. You were an atheist by name only and not deep enough. Your agenda was always to try to pretend to be an atheist first and the convert to Christianity so you could claim that you had been an atheist.

 

My point exactly if I said God hates you the emotions and angry responses would come flowing in. But does God hate you? Psalm 5:5 says God hates all workers of iniquity. Pslam 7:11 says God is angry with the wicked EVERYDAY. This isn't to say that God hates in terms of how humans hate, that once God hates you that's it He's done with you. But sinners do have wrath stored up with God. Does that show His true nature? Well if as a christian you were taught that God was this good ol' gandpappy in the sky, then yeah. God is love but God isn't JUST love. He is long suffering and compassionate, BUT He also has anger and wrath.

God doesn't exist. It's at best a concept, at worst a delusion. A mish-mash of conflicting and irreconcilable doctrines.

 

Why didn't Jesus forgive the people that crucified him?

[insanezenmistress]

well it isn't a suprise that you have a neat little answer to make my whole struggle a romp in the kiddie pool.

 

(snip)

 

izm

 

1. I'm not making it anything. I'm simply saying that you blaming it on christianity and God is simply illogical. If you had a real faith and your strength was really in the Lord then you wouldn't be trying to do something so foolish as to try to kill yourself. If your church followed unbiblical doctrine then leave, there are plenty of churches around and if not you can start your own fellowship its not that hard. But to blame the "church" for your condition is a copout.

 

 

2. I'm not saying the emotions weren't real, I mean if you tried killing yourself then obviously they were real, however the cause and object of those emotions are misplaced. Your issue isn't with the bible or christianity it was the church you attended. And like I said if they were teaching false hoods get up and leave and don't look back. I went to several churches when I first got saved and they were all teaching unbiblical non-sense. However that isn't God's fault nor is it a reason to try to kill myself.

 

3. So in essence you departed from the faith and then gave in to subjective feelings and so on and then let that be your guide. Well to each His own but my friend I warn you sternly that the wrath of God is upon you unless you turn back to the true God and worship Him in spirit and in truth and not in some churches false doctrine.

 

4. No I think it was because you were unstable as is normally the case with most suicide attempts.

 

 

! wait a moment. how many times in my little testamonial did i mention being upset with god or church. I was prayerfull and seeking and beliveing that god would lead me. I TRUSTED his spirit even after i came agaisnt things i found illogical or untrue within the bible and the contradictions of doctrine.

 

2 you are assumning again. It was not church nor god that let me down but Finding the correct interpretations fo the bible that has me confused. SO many churches, which taught the truth. It was my Search for Truth that was frustrated in the church.

 

3. no your assumptions are messing you up again. I foudn out through study that the thing i was praying to is and always was subjective. the bible was made by men but the personal relationship is always subjective. For example when you pray, is it to your loving father, or lord (bible verse) i pray that (bible verse bible verse bible verse bible verse) and please let me know the path that you would have me take casue (bible verse) promises you will.? And when you get an answer in your heart THAT answer is your subjective personal idolatry you claim is Jehova god.

 

I should hope that your relationship is more personal. It was for me. I prayed to my daddy, i told him where i hurt and i waite don the bible verses to come to me in the spirit. And THAT was also my subjective experience. No different than yours.

 

4. well darn. I am not sure all suicide can be so labeled. I was desparate yes. Desparate for truth. And felt so hopeless that it was not to be fodn in this world....that is within the bible's interpretation of the world.

 

And i was right. You haven't spoken a word of truth yet.

 

my attempt on my self was spoken as an illustration of my deep desire for knowledge of god. And i know now that i have sinned, having cast my perals before swine.

 

(i am done with you, dont even respect you enough to fix my typing)

[Guest FaithDefender619]

you can't tell ANYONE here about how deep their faith was.

 

and btw this is something I hate about Xtians that come here, that you think you know more about us from what 'the bible' says than you can learn from actually talking to us.

 

I sure can. The bible talks about people who fall away. You may have had faith but it had no REAL depth and your fallen away state is only proof of that.

 

And I do talk to you. And 100% of the time you confirm what the bible says without fail. Many of you may not want to admit it, many of you need to have been a deep Christian because it gives you street cred as an atheist but whatever your reason for not admitting that your faith wasn't really that deep it wasn't.

 

And what makes you think you are the only atheist I've talked to? I used to be an atheist for the 1st 6 years of my adult life. I talk to atheist on atleast 4 other forums, as well as in real life. And 100% of the time what the bible says is TRUE. Yes they did all these things (church, ministries, vowed to stay away from sin, "repent", ministries etc etc) but that is not indicative of a real faith. What is indicative, is the one thing you failed on, perseverance in the face of question and adversity. And in that you all failed at it. Remember the early church endured far worse than having than not being able to answer a few questions from the bible, questioning their faith or whatever. They were getting killed in some very ferocious ways. Crucified, burned, thrown to wild animals for entertainment, beaten, scourged etc. And they not only kept the faith many went to their deaths singing with joy in their hearts. So to tell me that you or others had real and deep faith when the biblical as well as historical christians faith was enough to keep them going even while facing death, whilst yours didn't even see you through a relative nudge, I'm sorry but you didn't have real faith. The bible says it was in vein.

 

Again I'm not trying to mock anybody but seriously the truth is the truth. In light of what biblical faith entails (perseverance and willingness to give everything up to and including your life) you didn't have it.

 

 

Bullshit, purely and simply. And by the way I was an atheist before I was a Xtian too.

 

No its not, its the truth. You and others may not want to hear it, read it or even admit it, but you know its true. Perseverance and single minded dedication to something is true faith in biblical terms. Something you all did not have. I'm not saying you were NEVER christian but I am saying that the depth of your faith wasn't at all what it should have been which is why you fell away.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

It was an example, I could have said God hates 'you' but I'm sure that would have caused an even greater uproar than my 'you didn't have real faith' statement. Which people are still highly emotional over.

I don't get it. God hates us? Cool. Well, that shows his true nature now, doesn't it.

 

Besides, you were never a true atheist. You were an atheist by name only and not deep enough. Your agenda was always to try to pretend to be an atheist first and the convert to Christianity so you could claim that you had been an atheist.

 

My point exactly if I said God hates you the emotions and angry responses would come flowing in. But does God hate you? Psalm 5:5 says God hates all workers of iniquity. Pslam 7:11 says God is angry with the wicked EVERYDAY. This isn't to say that God hates in terms of how humans hate, that once God hates you that's it He's done with you. But sinners do have wrath stored up with God. Does that show His true nature? Well if as a christian you were taught that God was this good ol' gandpappy in the sky, then yeah. God is love but God isn't JUST love. He is long suffering and compassionate, BUT He also has anger and wrath.

God doesn't exist. It's at best a concept, at worst a delusion. A mish-mash of conflicting and irreconcilable doctrines.

 

Why didn't Jesus forgive the people that crucified him?

 

Well that's a statement of faith not actually something you can prove.

 

Jesus did forgive them. Father forgive them for they know not what they do, ring a bell?