Christians Know The Truth

[Guest FaithDefender619]

I find it highly ironic that you talk about the Pharisees as if what they did is any different from what you are doing now. You talk about "depth" but you swim in the shallow end of the pool yourself. You take every word from that book at face value. There is no depth in your understanding FD.

 

So, stop offending us with your "insights". They are wrong. You need to look at yourself.

 

1. What am I doing that's like the pharisees?

 

2. Care to elaborate on what I lack in understanding or are we going to offer a shallow insult and then walk away.

 

3. If it wasn't true, it wouldn't offend you. I don't see why a bunch of atheist are getting so emotional when I say your faith wasn't that deep. I mean atheist try to tell me I was never a true atheist all the time and it doesn't bother me one bit.

Do you do your good "deeds" publically? Do you despise sinners or love them? Is your heart hard, cold and self-absorbed? Do you resemble anything in Matthew 23? Is there anything that has changed in your heart or is it just that you are following the rules listed in the bible? A bible, by the way, which created a religion around Jesus. Jesus wasn't a Christian. You are following people that wrote the bible.

 

I can see from your "fruits" that you don't care about anyone but yourself. This is the understanding that comes with a superficial reading of the bible. Show me anywhere that you have gone deeper than the "rules".

 

(#3) What? The truth never offends, but ignorance and then tossing out your uninformed understanding is offensive. You are a lowly piece of shit. Was that offending? Is it offending because it's the truth? NO! Don't be so stupid. It's not the truth, but it's offensive isn't it?

 

1. Often times when I do good works its impossible not to be in public. When I go and feed the homeless and preach the gospel to them its pretty hard not to be in public, however do I do them to be seen of men? NO. If doing good deeds in public was wrong Jesus would be a hypocrite, but we know that Jesus did what he did in public to give glory to His Father. Not to make a big name for himself.

 

2. Do I despise sinners? No hatred is an unchristian trait. Is my heart hard, cold and self absorbed no, those aren't christian traits either.

 

3. have you actually read all of Matthew 23 or just verse 13?

 

4. Most certianly has.

 

5. Oh boy here we go with this argument lol.

 

6. You haven't given me a reason to expand on what the bible says. You and many others are still stuck on reading verses and not chapters and books. I mean we'd have to get over this junior mentality before we can get to the real meat of what it says.

 

7. No its not offensive but it is quite amusing to see how emotional a bunch of people who claim to hate christianity can turn around and get so emotional when you tell them their former "faith" wasn't as deep as they try to make ti seem. I mean who cares? I was an atheist and when people tell me I was never really an atheist I really could care less because I don't identify myself with that world view anyway. Maybe because for most of you it hurts your anti-christian victimology. I dunno but I do find it rather telling and amusing all at the same time.

[NotBlinded]

5. A lot of the way churches worship and relate to God are wrong. I don't see why people think that no matter what you believe christian is christian as long as you call yourself christian. The bible lays down specific qualifications that a christian will meet. There is a standard by which we can judge and as christians MUST judge. I know that doesn't fit into the world view of today where everything is relative and any and everybody can be a christian so long as they go to church on sunday but thats not what its about nor has it ever been about.

And you honestly can't see that you are a Christian Pharisee? Really? The Torah layed down specific qualifications that a Jew must meet too. The Pharisees followed the letter of the law, but not the heart of the letters themselves. How in the hell are you any different?

 

Matthew 23

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

 

Yes, you are a great teacher of the law, but where in this thread or anywhere else have you shown us the love of God? You have done nothing but "shut the kingdom of heaven" in our faces.

 

As par4dcourse said, "Show us something God-insired and touch us all."

 

Your phylacteries are showing FD.

 

1. Yes the Pharisees followed the Law and they were also breaking it at the same time. It would have been totally different if they were following the law and doing so out of love for God like the prophets (who preached against sin and were so hated by the jews that they killed all of them), and actually lived the life they were supposed to. But they didn't And on top of that the pharisees made up and added things to the law. Having no standards isn't the mark of a christian quite the opposite Jesus laid down the standards for a christian life. He said we MUST repent or perish, we MUST have child like faith in Him, we MUST walk the narrow path, we MUST not be friends with the world. The Pauline epistles as well as those of James, Jude, Peter and John all elaborate on these teachings as well. If you read past verse 13 you'd see what Jesus was talking about when addressing the pharisees.

 

2. What is the love of God? People in this modern age have confused what love is. Jesus said for as many as I love I chasten and rebuke. Love isn't a hug or a kiss or some touchy feely oh come here and give grandpappy Jesus a hug. Thats not what it is. It's wanting the greatest good for a person. The only time Jesus spoke of Gods love for man was at night in the house of Niccodemus in which Jesus spoke John 3:16. However elsewhere Jesus spoke of how man is to love God by doing His will and preaching about hell. The words hell and fire hadn't been put into one term hell fire until Jesus. Jesus is the original hell fire preacher. And I still would love to see one thing I've said that is hateful or something that would shut heaven off to you. Just one.

 

3. God inspired like what?

Jesus...no wonder I'm not a Christian if that is what a real Christian is. There is no love there at all. No love is not touchy feely FD. I'm at a loss for words right now because what you present is so shallow that I can't even address it other than rejecting it. You are indeed following what others have interpreted for you. All those other areas of the bible that go on and on about what Jesus was and what Jesus did would probably surprise the hell out of Jesus.

 

I'm out for now. I may be back later.

[Justin]

. Apparently you didn't because passion denotes depth which you, according to the bible didn't have. I'm not trying to be condescending but its the truth. The kind of faith you had was good enough for church but for testing and trials it wasn't worth anything. When I was an atheist and I debated christians who said I was never really a christian (I was a catholic before) they were right. I really didn't believe all that time, I was a church going, sacrement keeping catholic but as far as genuine belief went I didn't have it. Which is why I stopped believing in God.

 

Until you bring to the argument something other than your Bible and opinion and you could travel back in time and examine us, shut up.

 

The only thing you are basing your ridiculous argument on is your belief that nobody can leave the "truth". It troubles you that many can leave what you percieve is the "truth". You have to come up with a quick pat excuse to ease your worried mind about it and you say these people never were true christians. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

 

you atheist are real quick to tell me I was never really an atheist.

 

Who's said this?

 

I mean you claim to have read the bible, yet misquote it so badly. Claim to have understood the faith, yet strawman it when attacking it.

 

I never claimed to have read the Bible. What you think i misquote and misunderstand is what you won't answer and brush aside out of fear of answering. I posted links saying that Behemoth and Leviathan were not dinousaurs and you said a word or two and dropped it. I gave you a link explaining that the Bible clearly states that the earth is flat and is covered with a sky dome with the stars, moon and sun etched in it and you dropped it. Just because you don't like what we say does not mean we are stupid and no nothing of the Bible punk.

 

Claim to have had a real repentance but almost without fail your salvation experience only lead you to serve in a church and nothing really more than that.

 

How do you know i did nothing more than church? This is why you are a condescending asshole. You don't know me nor have i told you shit. You make up shit to think you have won the debate. Typical christian tactic.

 

Claim to have had a true repentance but I'm sure if that were examined we'd see all kinds of unbiblical things going on there.

 

Ditto with yours, asshat.

 

And I base it off what goes on in the American church system today. Most of christianity is broken down into a 5 point plan, pray a prayer, ask jesus into your heart and wham bam that's it. And then like clockwork you have people either living like the devil or falling away all together because they really don't even know why or what they believe.

 

To this i repeat what i said in another post. "The only thing you are basing your ridiculous argument on is your belief that nobody can leave the "truth". It troubles you that many can leave what you percieve is the "truth". You have to come up with a quick pat excuse to ease your worried mind about it and you say these people never were true christians. Whatever helps you sleep at night."

 

I could say the same to you.

 

Actually you already did dumbass. Which promted me to apply it right back at you.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

FaithDefender, I know you have a lot of people to respond to.

 

But when I was a christian I was like you. I believed that the True Church was founded by Jesus and then his disciples and that this church preceded the Catholic Church. I believed that all denominations thereafter were perversions of True Christianity that followed the Bible and Jesus only and not man made doctrines. I believed that most people who believed themselves to be Christian were mistaken because they were not properly saved through baptism by immersion in water and they did not partake of communion correctly.

 

You know what, the bible does very well support all of these things. Thing is, I no longer believe the bible is inerrant or the word of god. That is what we here who are ex-christians have in common.

 

We do not believe the bible is the word of God. We do not believe that Jesus was his son, nor that the holy spirit exists at all. The doctrines that some people may or may not have believed, or may or may not have followed while they were a Christian don't matter when the end is the same.

 

You explaining the correct doctrine from the bible to us does nothing really because we don't believe it anyway. At this point I would not make any judgements about the beliefs of other people, whether in the past or present. So I take your word for it that you used to be and atheist and are now a True Christian and I understand what you mean by that.

 

It would behoove you to do likewise since trying to argue that some here were not actually ever Christians is not going to take the discussion anywhere except personal attacks and insults. We are not Christians now, we do not believe in the bible's power as god's word. So now where does the discussion go?

[Guest FaithDefender619]

 

1. It doesn't snow in San Diego

 

 

A) Ah, living the easy life, eh? If you REALLY wanted to persevere in the faith, you'd go street preach to the homeless drunks freezing to death in Minnesota.

 

 

2. Sure I care about you as human beings but its obvious many of you weren't really christians if you were then why do so many of you LIE on what the bible says and what we believe. I am listening to you which is why I can observe the things you are saying and gather that many of you were faking the funk.

 

 

ii) Please provide specific examples about how we are lying about the bible. Just because we're saying things you don't like doesn't mean we're lying.

 

And I'm not telling you my story about how I ended up here, the most psychologically painful experience of my life, because from what I've seen of the way you think and speak, all you'd say is that I was faking and spew a bunch more self-righteous venom. If you knew someone who was incredible physical pain and doctors couldn't find anything wrong, would you accuse the person in pain of faking? Because that's what you're doing here.

 

3. Go ahead and ban me. Wouldn't be the first site that threatened me with banning.

 

3.0.0.0.1) I have no power to ban you. But I would if I could because it would be a win-win for everyone. You'd get a persecution feather in your self-righteous heavenly crown and we wouldn't have to see your cancer hijacking interesting threads anymore.

 

1. It gets freezing cold in San Diego and have you ever seen a street preacher surrounded by drunks? Not exactly a safe situation.

 

2. I actually did but I'll do it again.

 

1. Dec 25 being biblical

2. Saying that christians only follow 1/2 the bible because we don't follow the OT Law.

3. That God killed himself and prayed to himself (Jesus).

 

 

I'm sure it was painful. How do you think it felt becoming a chrisitan. lol, not exactly the easiest thing to do especially after being an adamant atheist for 6 years. It was painful and humbling at the sametime. That is however what we call a conscience and it was telling you, you were wrong for abandoning God. However that is neither here nor there. And as far as self righteous venom, please, have you actually read some of the boo hoo victimology that goes on around here. Just the mean, bitter, angry, anti-christian rhetoric and propaganda that is spewn out. If you want to hate me that's fine but really grow some objectivity.

 

3. My "cancer hijacking interesting threads". LOL. Really after only a week I have so sullied this site that I'm a cancer and hijack threds? The only threads I've entered into and replied to are those that are addressing christan issues such as this one, James 3:7, Believers World View is ego-centric and a few others that have to do with christianity. I would imagine that if a real debate was trying to be fostered, other than the typical anti-christian, self-back patting I'm so smart atheist stroke fest, then a christian should participate in them.

[Justin]

There are people who researched trying to disprove christianity and wound up getting saved so I don't buy the painstaking research after painstaking research bit. Plenty of people say they do research and very few actually did.

 

You wouldn't buy it even if a christian fed it to you. Remember, you have to see it and verify it yourself before it can be published as fact.

 

Furthermore, there have been many people who tried to strengthen their faith in the Bible and the lord and wound up losing their faith. So whats your point? There have been folks who tried to disprove christianity and wound up becoming atheists. So whats your point?

 

But when it comes to this business if being saved and being a real biblical christian simply going to church, reading the bible, praying a prayer and so on doesn't constitute real faith.

 

But when it comes to this buisness, you cannot comment on how a person was in their christian ways. Saying they never had any depth to their religion because they fell away is nonsense and only a cop out answer as i have told you. It helps ease the worry in your mind as to how a person can leave what you mistake is the truth.

 

And you lost your faith after "seeing" something that says nothing about christianity but everything about your depth in faith.

 

And you lost your faith in atheisim after having a myspace debate. That says nothing about atheisim but everything about your depth of faith.

 

People who endured worse than u could imagine didn't give up on the faith and were slain for the faith singing hymns, nudged a little and fell over. I'm sorry That's just the high and low of it. You have been a true believer at one point but the depth of your faith were seriously lacking.

 

You do realise muslims have bown themselves up and have been killed for their faith, right? By your logic, i guess Islam is true because they never cracked under pressure as they died.

 

3. I'm sorry you know magic doesn't exist? Mind proving that to me? How do you know magic doesn't exist.

 

Prove to me Garfield doesn't live on Pluto? Or Medusa on some unnamed planet? Or a living asshole with your name on another unnamed planet. Better yet, i will ask you once again to actually prove the bullshit you hide behind. Go for it bitch. Prove to me you have common sense. Prove to me you can differentiate between fact and fiction. Between myth and reality.

 

4. Why would I wait for Santa I don't celebrate christmas. Its a pagan holiday.

 

Hmmmm, you're not a Jehovah's Witness are ya? No, you got your own religion. The, "i'm right and everybody else is wrong and i can make it up if i please" religion.

[par4dcourse]

So what do you see yourself as having accomplished on our boards thus far?

[Shyone]

FaithDefender, I know you have a lot of people to respond to.

 

But when I was a christian I was like you. I believed that the True Church was founded by Jesus and then his disciples and that this church preceded the Catholic Church. I believed that all denominations thereafter were perversions of True Christianity that followed the Bible and Jesus only and not man made doctrines. I believed that most people who believed themselves to be Christian were mistaken because they were not properly saved through baptism by immersion in water and they did not partake of communion correctly.

 

You know what, the bible does very well support all of these things. Thing is, I no longer believe the bible is inerrant or the word of god. That is what we here who are ex-christians have in common.

 

We do not believe the bible is the word of God. We do not believe that Jesus was his son, nor that the holy spirit exists at all. The doctrines that some people may or may not have believed, or may or may not have followed while they were a Christian don't matter when the end is the same.

 

You explaining the correct doctrine from the bible to us does nothing really because we don't believe it anyway. At this point I would not make any judgements about the beliefs of other people, whether in the past or present. So I take your word for it that you used to be and atheist and are now a True Christian and I understand what you mean by that.

 

It would behoove you to do likewise since trying to argue that some here were not actually ever Christians is not going to take the discussion anywhere except personal attacks and insults. We are not Christians now, we do not believe in the bible's power as god's word. So now where does the discussion go?

That's a very nice summary. I think you stated it well.

 

I think it is strange that once you have examined the flaws, considered all religions, looked at the timeline of religion and thoroughly grasped the "nature" of the bible god that it is so difficult to show others what we have found and why we think the way we do.

 

It seems so obvious now.

 

But when the apologists get ahold of the bible they think they are making points by saying that the cruelties are justified because "God is God", and Hell is just for those that "ask for it" and it's a blessing for everyone, and they have the real answers to How to Get to Heaven.

 

They don't even know what Heaven is.

 

Oh, there are answers, but they are absolutely meaningless, fabricated, imagined, and unconvincing.

 

Once you start to see others as equals, even if they don't think like you, it's hard to return to the mentality that says they are wrong, condemned, and somehow "different." They are us and we are they.

 

For someone who thinks "Atheist = Sinner", it's hard to imagine that person was any more than just a sinner, especially since the concept of sin itself is based on religious beliefs to begin with.

[godlessgrrl]

[Love is] wanting the greatest good for a person.

 

You certainly don't act like this is what you want for any of us.

 

If you did want this, your behavior would be very, very different from what it's actually been.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

FaithDefender, I know you have a lot of people to respond to.

 

But when I was a christian I was like you. I believed that the True Church was founded by Jesus and then his disciples and that this church preceded the Catholic Church. I believed that all denominations thereafter were perversions of True Christianity that followed the Bible and Jesus only and not man made doctrines. I believed that most people who believed themselves to be Christian were mistaken because they were not properly saved through baptism by immersion in water and they did not partake of communion correctly.

 

You know what, the bible does very well support all of these things. Thing is, I no longer believe the bible is inerrant or the word of god. That is what we here who are ex-christians have in common.

 

We do not believe the bible is the word of God. We do not believe that Jesus was his son, nor that the holy spirit exists at all. The doctrines that some people may or may not have believed, or may or may not have followed while they were a Christian don't matter when the end is the same.

 

You explaining the correct doctrine from the bible to us does nothing really because we don't believe it anyway. At this point I would not make any judgements about the beliefs of other people, whether in the past or present. So I take your word for it that you used to be and atheist and are now a True Christian and I understand what you mean by that.

 

It would behoove you to do likewise since trying to argue that some here were not actually ever Christians is not going to take the discussion anywhere except personal attacks and insults. We are not Christians now, we do not believe in the bible's power as god's word. So now where does the discussion go?

 

1. I do not believe that the Catholic Church is a direct descendant of the apostolic faith. Nowhere in the bible is praying to saints, angels, Mary etc permissible.

 

2. I never said that I believe all denominations are perversions. I said that some churches practice unbiblical things in their worship and teach unbiblical doctrine. If I were to line up with a church I'd be a baptist but John Wesley was a methodist and I think He was a great man of God, King James was an anglican and I think the Authorized Bible of 1611 better known as the King James Bible is the best bible there is and I don't read any other bible. I'm not saying that I think denominations are perversions (even thought the bible teaches against them) I think that there are churches that preach false doctrine and that can be any denomiation.

 

3. Baptism nor taking communion saves you only faith and the blood of Jesus washing you of your sins. Baptism and the Lords Supper (far different than communion or the "eucharist" which is said to be the acutal body and blood of Jesus through a sort of magical enchantment called trans-substantiation)

 

4. The bible doesn't uphold those things as pre-conditions for salvation.

 

5. If understanding biblical doctrine doesn't matter then why is there a whole room dedicated to theological issues in which the bible and biblical doctrine is discussed. Why is it that every day there are threads asking if the bible is true then *insert question here*. I would disagree you may not believe the bible but the need and want for biblical doctrine. Hardly anybody on here is asking well if the Quran is true the *insert question*. So yes there in deed is a need and want for bible teaching. Now maybe what I'm saying isn't to your liking adn thats perfectly fine but I'm not slinging mud when I say that most of you had a shallow faith. That is what the bible says your faith had no real depth. People in China are getting killed over their faith and you get questioned on yours and you fall away. I mean that's not exactly a deep faith. The early church right on up to the modern church has suffered persecution at the hands of many wicked people and faithful men and women constantly line up to get martyred for the naem of Jesus. That is a true deep faith. Jesus basically siad you'd have to be willing to die (not kill but die) for this. And then went on and lead by example. ANd then 12 of his apostles saved John were all killed for their faith as well. I think in America people have a very comfortable idea of what faith is and have grown some very sloppy doctrine from it. Going to church, professing faith, baptism, communion, church work, charity work I mean those are part of the faith but not what faith is in and of itself. Maybe a thread on this topic should be done to further clarify.

 

6. I do believe some of you were actually christians my assertion from the bible is that again the faith you had wasn't very deep. But lets not act like I was the one who started this whole thing to begin with so now its up to me to direct this conversation. The thread title is very condescending in nature and the OP isn't much better. And then when I suggest a more plausible alternative then "well christians know christianity isn't true", such as "well maybe these christians aren't really christians but only have a surface belief", then I'm branded as being a fundamentalist, extremist, a hate monger, a cancerous thread hijacker, so on and so on. Where do we go from here, hopefully people on here would stop with the boo hoo victimology and extremely emotional responses and actually engage in some sound logical argumentation without the smug anti-christian nonsense and atheist constantly proclaiming how smart they are over us stupid christians. WE GET IT!!! You are smart we are dumb ok now can we have real debate now?

[centauri]

Yes I can. Read the bible. The Mormons don't even believe the bible is the only book they should use, there is the Pearl of Great Price and The Book of Mormon (which they believe is the only way to truly understand the bible). And mormon salvation looks nothing like biblical salvation. When a good mormon dies He and His wife become gods of their own planet and the woman populates the planet with children. The catholics likewise believe that the bible is true but needs to be supplemented with the cathecism of the church and all of its rulings (which have swung back and forth through the history of the catholic church, at times it was Christ alone that saved you, other times its Christ and Mary that save you).

You haven’t established anything regarding biblical salvation.

All you’ve done is to repeat the assertion that you’ve got the proper understanding and other sects have it wrong.

Prove your version is correct.

 

Since when is saying someone is wrong self-righteous. If the bible doesnt't teach what someone is saying, then that person is wrong. If mormons think they are going to become gods of their own planet but that cannot be found in scripture anywhere then the mormons are wrong.

You haven’t established what right and wrong is.

You simply declare things and attempt to create reality for people in this forum by your decrees.

 

Pagan human sacrifice? Yes the following the Torah was the stipulation in that day and age, however the bible talks about God giving a new covenant which was not like that of the Jews when they came out of Egypt, so simply because we are under a new covenant doesn't mean that we are changing the rules.

Show me where the new covenant, as defined in the Hebrew scriptures, states that the law would be replaced by faith in a human sacrifice.

Also, show me where it says a vicarious human sacrifice would be needed for an individual to be saved from sin.

 

Who said they were sects? It was either you were a christian or not. There were groups that tried to pervert what the bible said and the teachings of the apostles like say the gnostics or the Arians but that only proves there were people who perverted the original teaching not that the original teaching gave creedance to such actions.

You still haven’t defined what a proper true Christian is.

What Christian sect follows the original teachings today?

Is the Trinity original to the bible or is it a perversion of the original teaching that God gave about himself in the Hebrew scriptures?

 

Have what all right? Demonstrate it how?

By defining what a proper true Christian is and by demonstrating that you embody all the characteristics.

 

I'm not christian bashing. I'm simply stating that simply because someone says they're a christian makes them a christian. Many people on here have said I was never a real atheist, which is to say there is a standard for what a real atheist is. Using that same logic there is a standard for what a real christian is. Simply going to church and doing some church activites doesn't make you a real christian.

You dismiss certain Christian sects as invalid expressions of Christianity.

In order for your dismissal to stick, you need to define the standards for what a real Christian is and then demonstrate that your definitions are objective and binding on others rather than being subjective and only your personal opinion.

You already stated that Mormons and Catholics have a false religion, which makes them improper Christians.

However, you haven’t listed what the standards are for a person to be deemed a “real Christian”.

 

What wonder working power? LOL.

I already listed some of them, such as the power to empty hospitals, feed the masses, and cast out demons.

There’s nothing funny about that, it’s the promise of Jesus and the sign of a true Christian.

 

...I think you are confusing clearing up obvious ignorance of what christians believe with preaching. I haven't once preached on here I'm simply clearing up what is appauling ignorance of what christians supposedly believe from a group of people who supposedly were all super christians in the past.

But you’re not clearing up anything.

All you’re doing is making various assertions according to your personal theological whims.

You haven’t established that your whims are any more valid than the whims of Catholics, Mormons, or any other Christian sect.

Catholics would deem you a heretic that demonstrates appalling ignorance of the New Testament and the role of the Catholic Church in salvation, as established by Jesus.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

[Love is] wanting the greatest good for a person.

 

You certainly don't act like this is what you want for any of us.

 

If you did want this, your behavior would be very, very different from what it's actually been.

 

What exactly have I done or said?

[Shyone]

Yes I can. Read the bible. The Mormons don't even believe the bible is the only book they should use, there is the Pearl of Great Price and The Book of Mormon (which they believe is the only way to truly understand the bible). And mormon salvation looks nothing like biblical salvation. When a good mormon dies He and His wife become gods of their own planet and the woman populates the planet with children. The catholics likewise believe that the bible is true but needs to be supplemented with the cathecism of the church and all of its rulings (which have swung back and forth through the history of the catholic church, at times it was Christ alone that saved you, other times its Christ and Mary that save you).

You haven’t established anything regarding biblical salvation.

All you’ve done is to repeat the assertion that you’ve got the proper understanding and other sects have it wrong.

Prove your version is correct.

Who said they were sects? It was either you were a christian or not. There were groups that tried to pervert what the bible said and the teachings of the apostles like say the gnostics or the Arians but that only proves there were people who perverted the original teaching not that the original teaching gave creedance to such actions.

You still haven’t defined what a proper true Christian is.

What Christian sect follows the original teachings today?

Is the Trinity original to the bible or is it a perversion of the original teaching that God gave about himself in the Hebrew scriptures?

This is too long to really delve into completely, but it seems that FD is saying:

 

If it isn't biblical, or is a doctrine grafted onto the bible (either by decree or by another "revelation") then it isn't correct, isn't true christianity.

 

I don't think I'm oversimplifying here, but FD can add complexities if he wishes.

 

I think it needs to be said that at least some of what FD believes (and has stated as true) is extrabiblical as well.

 

I'm not, in this simple thread, going to take every example, but I will echo something about what you said regarding the Trinity. Not only is it not in the Hebrew scriptures, it isn't in the New Testament as well.

 

It is a distinctly extrabiblical (or unbiblical) concept in its entirety.

 

"The New Testament does not have a formal doctrine of the Trinity and nowhere discusses the Trinity as such."

 

Early heresies about the divinity of Jesus pointed out that Jesus and God were obviously separate entities (and in some heresies that Jesus was not divine).

 

Since some heresies were contemporary with the gospels, I suspect that the gospels were written or edited to reflect the particular beliefs of the gospel writers - instead of whatever the truth might have been.

 

There are many concepts that are not expressed in the bible. "Washed in the Blood"? What kind of double speak is this? Is there a biblical reference that specifically says to be Washed in the Blood?

 

And how about the references that say to do things that just aren't done very much? Like washing feet? That ritual never caught on.

 

John 13:12-15

12. So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13. Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15. For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you.

 

You aren't a True Christian unless you wash someones feet.

[insanezenmistress]

my faith was not very deep.

 

.... ..... HOLY MOLY!

 

Now this is the first time i "heard" it. My faith is soooo deep that i STILL try to fit god back into your little box, just so i can talk down to your level.

 

For me leaveing chrisitanity was not a matter of god not doing much for me, God has prooven himself plenty for me. IN fact I found chrisitanity too small a place for US. It got to the point where to keep on NOT questioning theology and chruch doctrine in light of scripture was to begin to LIE to the LORD by being there.

 

IN christianity I was so concerned about having the right theology and seeing so many preversions and lies in denominations that I sat down one day and said "lord, I cant seem to know which truth is YOUR truth. And I am tired of the devil's lies." And so with pills in my and the intent to go ask god in person, I waited on my salvation.

 

Luckilly for me it came in the form of a concerned friend whom I had not spoken with in a long time calling me. This friend was christian and I strung my chrisitanity along a few more years. Untill I found that universalist theology was better than my baptist theology but still no agreement within god's church.

 

 

I wonder if that friend had been mormon woudl I be at the ex-mormon site?

 

MY faith was not so DEEP.... My practice of chrisitanity was to DIE dailly to sin and if the church was not going to help me succeed then maybe Buddha could.

 

I left christianity because it did not give me tools to obey and take hold of christianity's promises.

 

I belive god is truth. I was SOOOOOO fundimental, yet i was honest. I was so fundimental that I promised anyone that if they chould show me a contradiction that I cant refute then I would have to admit it could not BE GOD'S truth.

 

When I found acceptible contradictions I got on the floor, face down and sobbed... begging god to not make me quit the faith. But he did.

 

And I VOWED that if there is a true truth, I would find GOD in that truth.

 

DONT try to tell me about who's faith is so shallow!

 

IZM

[agnosticator]

Now maybe what I'm saying isn't to your liking adn thats perfectly fine but I'm not slinging mud when I say that most of you had a shallow faith. That is what the bible says your faith had no real depth.

 

6. I do believe some of you were actually christians my assertion from the bible is that again the faith you had wasn't very deep.

 

This is what you have said that is condescending. Telling others they never were "true christians" is pretty ignorant. Equating enduring persecution with "deep faith" doesn't prove anything either. Believing and dying for a lie happens everyday. You name a religion or ideology that hasn't had its' persecuted believers and martyrs. Christianity is one of the Big Lies.

 

"Power comes from lying. Lying big and gettin' the whole damn world to play along with you. Once you've got everybody agreeing with what they know in their hearts ain't true, you've got 'em by the balls." (Sin City quote)

[Guest I Love Dog]

1. I didn't say sex was bad I'm saying fornication (sex out of marriage) is a sin.

 

2. It has nothing to do with what I don't like the bible clearly says that sex out of marriage is sin. The bible doesn't come against going to a ball game but if you are more obcessed with sports than with God that is called idolatry and that is a sin.

 

Yes, because only through an offical government acknowledgement of your union can you have sex. You have to pay them marriage taxes before you can have fun. I know many folks who have been happily together for many years longer than many marriages and have no problems. You can say so what, they are still wrong, but that is pure conjecture based on your book of myths.

 

As for the rest of what you said, if Jesus said you can drink posion and not die, then why don't you do this? If he said it then why do you say it is not biblical?

 

One thing you don't seem to understand about denominations is that EVERY thing you said in your last three paragraphs can be said by anyone in any other denomination. Plus, any other denomination can point out this and that verse to back up what they believe. Every denomination thinks that they are right and are the sole keepers of the truth while the others are not. You've not said anything at all to lend any truth to your claim as being the only 'right' believer.

 

It's been said that most christians hold the Bible and God as a ventriliquist puppet on their lap. They have their hand up his back and control his eyes, his head movements, and what comes out of his mouth. Or, that nobody is really sure what the Bible means, but each and every believer thinks it means what THEY say.

 

But then again the bible predicted it would be this way.

 

What if you are a part of the 'wrong' crowd? Now of course you think you're not, you think you are as right as right can be. But just imagine that you are wrong and all the umpteen million other denominations are right about you.

 

 

3. I'm not saying I'm the only right believer. There are lutherans, catholics, methodist etc who love God, keep his word, are born again and are going to heaven. But as far as church denominations the bible says they are wrong.

 

4. And to them I would say that the bible is quite clear in what it says. But in the past 100 years (and really since the 2nd century with groups like the gnostics, spiritualizing everything in the scripture, the relativism movement) there has been an increasing departure from biblical literalism (not to be confused with letterism) and a move toward personal interpretation of the bible if they even use the bible at all.

 

You are one of THE most arrogant, egocentric, judgemental Christians ever to post on these pages. I don't know what you are trying to achieve by arguing on here, but most times you make yourself look like a total idiot.

 

What happened to all the billions of wonderful people in the World who died before your god and heaven was invented by the Hebrews 2000 years ago? What happens to all the billions of wonderful, caring, loving, giving beautiful humans who have never heard of your god and its heaven, when they die? Good thing is they probably wouldn't want to live with such an evil monster of a god and all his self-righteous ignorant followers.

 

As far as "going to heaven", then you may be one of the 3 people in the World to get there.

 

Earth's population 6.7 billion

 

Christians 2.1 billion

 

Leaves 4.6 billion people who don't worship the Christian god that will go straight to hell. This includes Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans, atheists, etc.

 

Out of the 2.1 billion Christians the bible(the honest and truthful word of god) tells us:

 

Those who won't get to heaven are homosexuals, bisexuals, handicapped people, mentally disabled, blind, deaf or dumb, criminals who haven't repented, people who died before they got to repent, little children who don't know about repentance, Christians who weren't really true Christians, people who coveted their neighbor's wife, ox or ass, people who worked on the Sabbath, people who had sex before marriage, used contraception, had abortions, committed incest, people who worshiped graven images. those who committed adultery, those who masturbated while thinking of Brad Pitt, Jonas Bros. or Beyonce or JLo and any other thing that offended god in his infinite wisdom and pettiness.

 

These add up to 2 billion +. What do we have left? 3 people who may get to heaven because they are possibly "true" Christians. You may be just unlucky enough to go there.

[centauri]

I do not believe that the Catholic Church is a direct descendant of the apostolic faith. Nowhere in the bible is praying to saints, angels, Mary etc permissible.

Catholics say otherwise:

http://www.protestanterrors.com/#27

Why do so many make a devotion to the Blessed Virgin? Simply to ask Her intercession and prayers as we see done elsewhere in Scripture. For example:

 

"For the rest, brethren, pray for us, that the word of God may run, and may be glorified, even as among you; And that we may be delivered from importunate and evil men; for all men have not faith." 2 Thes 3:1

 

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God" Rom 15:30

 

"Praying withal for us also, that God may open unto us a door of speech to speak the mystery of Christ (for which also I am bound)" Colossians 4:3

 

"And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel." Apocalypse (Revelation) 8:3-4

 

As Christians, we believe in the Word of God found in Scripture, which refers to the Blessed Virgin as being called "Blessed for all generations". Why ignore or take a dislike to a creature God himself refers to as "Blessed"?

 

Also note, Jesus loved His earthly mother above all earthly creatures and loves Her exceedingly to this day. As Christians we strive to imitate Christ, so why ignore or even take a dislike to the Blessed Virgin in direct opposition to Jesus? Is she to be disliked for some reason? If so, why?

 

If Jesus and the Blessed Virgin Mary were still on earth, would Jesus encourage us to ignore and even dislike His Mother as so many Protestant denominations openly do?

 

Jesus could have appeared on earth in any fashion of His choosing, but instead He chose to come through the Blessed Virgin to us. Why did He choose to come through the Blessed Virgin if there were not a reason? The reason is obvious; He came to us through Her, now God allows us to go through Her to Him in our prayers and requests.

 

ANd then 12 of his apostles saved John were all killed for their faith as well.

This isn't in the Bible.

What extra-biblical source are you using to establish this as history?

[OnceConvinced]

All this preachin' and so far not one has fallen in the spirit, gave their lives to kryasst, or jumped back on the xian bandwagon.

You aren't much of a preacher, are you?

If you and gawd are as close chums as you claim, why he should have told you how to get a few rebels back in the fold. What gives?

So far, all you've managed is to push the membership farther from xianity. *gasp* You must be OF THE DEBBLE. Oh lawd hep us.

 

He is doing just what Satan wants him to do. I've heard it from others and am starting to believe it myself - Jesus is Satan! He has successfully decieved this man to believe he is working for God. Satan has succeeded, through him, in helping deter more people from God.

[OnceConvinced]

 

5. I'm not christian bashing. I'm simply stating that simply because someone says they're a christian makes them a christian. Many people on here have said I was never a real atheist, which is to say there is a standard for what a real atheist is. Using that same logic there is a standard for what a real christian is. Simply going to church and doing some church activites doesn't make you a real christian.

 

Here you go again, blatantly misrepresenting many of us here on this site. Many of the people here had a so much deeper faith than that. I for one was more than just a church goer and someone who got themselves involved in church activities. Why don't you tell us what makes a true Christian? What makes you so special? What makes you so sure that your foundations in Christ are deep and that you are true Christian? You won't answer those questions because you know deep down most of us did exactly what we were supposed to do. Most of us were genuine in our love for Christ. Most of us worshipped God with all our whole body and believed in him with all our heart. So come on? Answer the questions? What makes you think you're so special? What makes you so certain you won't be an ex-christian further down the track? You know that anyhing you tell us, we will have done, believed, etc etc.

 

 

6. I didn't say ALL christian sects are following a false religion and are wrong, I'm saying a lot of churches do engage in unbiblical and in most cases heretical practices and forms of worship.

How can you be so sure your beliefs aren't false? How can you be sure you are not engaged in heretical practises and forms of worship? Every Christian believes they are doing it right. Why should we believe you are the one Christian in a million who's doing it right?

 

The reality of the situation is that if God has let so many of us slip through the cracks, then he is hardly a very powerful or loving God. If sin is like krypnotite to him, then he is clearly a flawed being. How is it that your God is so feeble? How is it that he has such trouble getting the truth to his followers? Sin is only there because he allows it to be there. Satan is only there because God created him. This God of yours seems like a rather incompetent or malevolent being.

 

11. ..........I think you are confusing clearing up obvious ignorance of what christians believe with preaching. I haven't once preached on here I'm simply clearing up what is appauling ignorance of what christians supposedly believe from a group of people who supposedly were all super christians in the past.

You have done nothing but preach. We know preaching when we see it. As for ignorance, it is you that is ignorant. It is you that unquestionably believes everything the bible tells you without even thinking it through logically. We are far from ignorant as we can see just how ridiculous and stupid the bible is. We have opened our eyes and stepped out of the delusion. You have not.

[Guest FaithDefender619]

Yes I can. Read the bible. The Mormons don't even believe the bible is the only book they should use, there is the Pearl of Great Price and The Book of Mormon (which they believe is the only way to truly understand the bible). And mormon salvation looks nothing like biblical salvation. When a good mormon dies He and His wife become gods of their own planet and the woman populates the planet with children. The catholics likewise believe that the bible is true but needs to be supplemented with the cathecism of the church and all of its rulings (which have swung back and forth through the history of the catholic church, at times it was Christ alone that saved you, other times its Christ and Mary that save you).

You haven’t established anything regarding biblical salvation.

All you’ve done is to repeat the assertion that you’ve got the proper understanding and other sects have it wrong.

Prove your version is correct.

Who said they were sects? It was either you were a christian or not. There were groups that tried to pervert what the bible said and the teachings of the apostles like say the gnostics or the Arians but that only proves there were people who perverted the original teaching not that the original teaching gave creedance to such actions.

You still haven’t defined what a proper true Christian is.

What Christian sect follows the original teachings today?

Is the Trinity original to the bible or is it a perversion of the original teaching that God gave about himself in the Hebrew scriptures?

This is too long to really delve into completely, but it seems that FD is saying:

 

If it isn't biblical, or is a doctrine grafted onto the bible (either by decree or by another "revelation") then it isn't correct, isn't true christianity.

 

I don't think I'm oversimplifying here, but FD can add complexities if he wishes.

 

I think it needs to be said that at least some of what FD believes (and has stated as true) is extrabiblical as well.

 

I'm not, in this simple thread, going to take every example, but I will echo something about what you said regarding the Trinity. Not only is it not in the Hebrew scriptures, it isn't in the New Testament as well.

 

It is a distinctly extrabiblical (or unbiblical) concept in its entirety.

 

"The New Testament does not have a formal doctrine of the Trinity and nowhere discusses the Trinity as such."

 

Early heresies about the divinity of Jesus pointed out that Jesus and God were obviously separate entities (and in some heresies that Jesus was not divine).

 

Since some heresies were contemporary with the gospels, I suspect that the gospels were written or edited to reflect the particular beliefs of the gospel writers - instead of whatever the truth might have been.

 

There are many concepts that are not expressed in the bible. "Washed in the Blood"? What kind of double speak is this? Is there a biblical reference that specifically says to be Washed in the Blood?

 

And how about the references that say to do things that just aren't done very much? Like washing feet? That ritual never caught on.

 

John 13:12-15

12. So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?

13. Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.

14. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

15. For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you.

 

You aren't a True Christian unless you wash someones feet.

 

This will be the last post i make in this thread, I'm going to be making some threads about doctrines and such so that I can elaborate on what biblical salvation, what a true christian is etc, sin there seems to be a want to understand biblical doctrine.

 

1. My contention is if it isn't biblical it isn't true. Grafting on doctrine is the same as a false doctrine.

 

2. Actually it does. In Genesis 18:1-3, God made an appearance to Abraham.

 

Genesis 18

 

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

 

God appeared to Abraham as 3 men. And Abraham bowed to them and said My Lord *singular*.

 

3. Acutally in John 1:1 it states

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

So obviously there are 2 parts of the God head. God was there in the beginning, and the word was there in the beginning and they were both God. So we can see from John 1:1 there is at least a duality in the God head. Now Jesus said concerning the Holy Ghost in Mark 3:29

 

But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

 

How exactly can you blaspheme something that isn't God?

 

Also Jesus in the great comission told us to go into all the world, preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Why would you be baptized into those names if neither Son or Holy Spirit were of any divine importance?

 

Finally in the book of Acts we see Ananias and his wife holding back money from the church. Peter says to him you why have you lied to the Holy Spirit. You haven't lied to as unto men but unto GOD.

 

4. Again simply because a heresy exist only proves that an original teaching did which was perverted. And the bible and early church believed Jesus was God.

 

5. Washed in the blood is definately biblical

 

1 John 1:7 - But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

 

there it is right there.

 

But like I said I'm going to get more active in making threads so I can as was suggested above elaborate on biblical doctrine.

[belladonna]

Good. I can't wait. I didn't follow this thread like I should have, but I'm sure you and I can have some great conversations on doctrine.

 

This ought to be fun.

[par4dcourse]

Good. I can't wait. I didn't follow this thread like I should have, but I'm sure you and I can have some great conversations on doctrine.

 

This ought to be fun.

I wouldn't count on much "discussion". After all, he alone has The Truth^TM and we are but ignorant sinners.

He'll post the same fundy crap as all the others then cry foul when Shyone and Hans, et. al., rip it to shreds.

I wish one of them had a unique idea, but then gawd has been pretty much incommunicado for the last few millenia.

[centauri]

In Genesis 18:1-3, God made an appearance to Abraham.

 

Genesis 18

 

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

 

God appeared to Abraham as 3 men. And Abraham bowed to them and said My Lord *singular*.

But this doesn't establish God as a Trinity.

Your scenario creates a contradiction because God proclaimed several times that he was not a man.

The passage can also be interpreted to mean that God was there before the three men appeared.

God appeared to Abraham, then three men arrived.

God is not any of the three men.

Gen 18:22 shows the three men departed and Abraham is still there talking to God.

If the three men were simply angels, sent as representatives of God, that wouldn’t violate God’s proclamation.

 

Acutally in John 1:1 it states

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

So obviously there are 2 parts of the God head. God was there in the beginning, and the word was there in the beginning and they were both God. So we can see from John 1:1 there is at least a duality in the God head.

It’s not obvious because John 1:1 is a misrepresentation of Psa 33:6.

Psa 33:6 says the Word was of God.

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.

 

The word was OF God, not another God head.

The word becoming flesh doesn't establish that the word was God himself.

If word made flesh was simply the product of his creation, Jesus was no more God himself than Adam was, and Jesus even admitted as much in John 20:17.

 

And the bible and early church believed Jesus was God.

The early church also believed Jesus wasn't God.

The Bible shows Jesus not being God.

There is no three-headed God in the Hebrew scriptures.

Jesus claimed to have a God even after he was ascended.

[belladonna]

Good. I can't wait. I didn't follow this thread like I should have, but I'm sure you and I can have some great conversations on doctrine.

 

This ought to be fun.

I wouldn't count on much "discussion". After all, he alone has The Truth^TM and we are but ignorant sinners.

He'll post the same fundy crap as all the others then cry foul when Shyone and Hans, et. al., rip it to shreds.

I wish one of them had a unique idea, but then gawd has been pretty much incommunicado for the last few millenia.

 

Speaking of ripping his arguments apart, I think centauri just did a hell of a job of it in the post below yours.

[par4dcourse]

One of the et. al. I had in mind.