I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest confused idiot]

You know what might do you some good.....being a part of a local freethinker's or apostate group and talking this stuff out with people in person. This thread is ridiculously long.

 

I understand the need to get all the religious junk out, but how long has this been going on now? At some point, you have to say "THIS is where I stand" wherever "THIS" is. Even if "THIS" is agnostic, just own it! Even if it's Christian, own it! It's almost like you're not ready to make any changes right now, so don't try and push yourself beyond what your mind may not be ready for. There are Christians here who have made the change to leave the faith, but found it miserable, so went back. What good does it do yourself if you're miserably trying to be something you're not?

 

Why do you feel you might be an ex-Christian? If you're struggling this much, would it be easier for you to leave it for a while and come back to it? Just some thoughts.

 

THIS IS WHERE I STAND: I don't know.

 

You're right. It's gone on too long.

 

I'll find a different way to vent the anger. Maybe exercise, learning an instrument. Something.

 

You asked why I feel I'm an ex-Christian. Because I am. I'm no longer a follower of Christ.

 

You have created a very interesting trap for yourself. It goes like this: You have serious doubts about christianity, but what you call your "indoctrination" won't let you let go of it completely. The part of you that still believes as a christian is afraid you will go to hell, but you refuse to bow down to bible-god to deliver you from hell. You suggest you are not rational, so any rational arguments are useless. You don't understand your own points, so no one can discuss them with you.

 

So come on. Where's the in that can make a difference for you? Tell us so we can address it.

 

I don't having a fucking clue. Honestly.

 

I think on a lesser level I have dealt with this. What i realized is that i can't be driven by emotion, i need to be driven by my brain.

 

Emotions are deceptive, no doubt.

 

 

Which religion is true? Because, just to be safe, you might want to become a Muslim. I think the Islamic hell is prolly worse than the Christian hell. Even if it's not worse, it's easieer to get in to! NOW what are you gonna do? Try and reconcile Islam and Christianity so you can avoid both hells? Well, THAT won't work! By the way, were you raised Christian? If you were raised Muslim, you wouldn't give a rat's ass about Christianity and all its threats.

 

I never worry about the Muslim hell because I've never been exposed to Islam. It's nothing more than a myth to me, even though I have no proof of that. Christianity, on the other hand, has been embedded deep into my brain. Part of me sees this, and that's still not enough.

[Realist]

I think on a lesser level I have dealt with this. What i realized is that i can't be driven by emotion, i need to be driven by my brain.

....

 

just a thought.... is it because "Confused" is trying to deconvert due to one aspect only? (Fear?) This is the prime thing that continues to come through in all his posts.

 

Does one need more reasons to deconvert than just the fear aspect? Most of us can probably remember the catalysts that started our deconversions. I guess in most cases it was nothing to do with the fear aspect. Usually it is the realisation caused through numerous other things. Of course most of us had to also tackle the "Fear" aspect at some stage of this. As I say ... just a thought!!!

[Realist]

... and by the way I am NOT saying you cannot dencovert that way .... it is just it may be harder.

[Guest Valk0010]

Fear preventing deconversion, correct me if im wrong CI.

[Guest confused idiot]

 

just a thought.... is it because "Confused" is trying to deconvert due to one aspect only? (Fear?) This is the prime thing that continues to come through in all his posts.

 

Does one need more reasons to deconvert than just the fear aspect? Most of us can probably remember the catalysts that started our deconversions. I guess in most cases it was nothing to do with the fear aspect. Usually it is the realisation caused through numerous other things. Of course most of us had to also tackle the "Fear" aspect at some stage of this. As I say ... just a thought!!!

 

That's what I'm saying. I don't think my motives are even pure in deconverting. For most I've seen, they did it because of one reason or another, stopped believing, THEN deconverted. For me, I saw it as something that sucked and I wanted out of it, and I deconverted... but the moment of disbelief hasn't come yet. I'm one strange character.

[Guest confused idiot]

Fear preventing deconversion, correct me if im wrong CI.

 

I'm already a deconvert, but I deconverted before my my moment of disbelief instead of the other way around, unlike how most I've seen do it. As I stated in my reply to Realist.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

You asked why I feel I'm an ex-Christian. Because I am. I'm no longer a follower of Christ.

 

If you truely mean, that, calm down, the battle is half won.

[Guest confused idiot]

If you truely mean, that, calm down, the battle is half won.

 

Half won is the key word.

[FiddlingAround]

So you believe but don't want any part of it? And you're looking for reasons not to believe?

 

Well, we can't prove to you that god doesn't exist, anymore that you wouldn't be able to convince me if I were suddenly convinced the teacup at the top of this page was flying invisible about my apartment. It's up to the person who claims the existence of the extraordinary to provide evidence.

 

Do you consider that Christianity has done so? Look at the Bible. Do you consider this a credible document?

 

If the answer to these questions is yes...well, then I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?

 

You may not have an answer to these now. That's okay. Just look into it - especially the Bible - and consider your own motives as well.

[Guest Valk0010]

If you truely mean, that, calm down, the battle is half won.

 

Half won is the key word.

And the other half is way easier then the first one.

[Realist]

I think that is an issue ... most of us because of what caused us to deconvert in the first could NEVER go back to it again ... we have too many reasons ALL TOGETHER which make the bible and the christian god unbelievable. It gets to the stage it becomes like someone asking you if you could go back to believing in Santa Claus again. One eventually DOES sort it out to that degree! IT TAKES WORK THOUGH!!!That is why I say a person who has TRULY deconverted can never go back to it EVER again!

[Guest confused idiot]

So you believe but don't want any part of it? And you're looking for reasons not to believe?

 

Well, we can't prove to you that god doesn't exist, anymore that you wouldn't be able to convince me if I were suddenly convinced the teacup at the top of this page was flying invisible about my apartment. It's up to the person who claims the existence of the extraordinary to provide evidence.

 

Do you consider that Christianity has done so? Look at the Bible. Do you consider this a credible document?

 

If the answer to these questions is yes...well, then I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?

 

You may not have an answer to these now. That's okay. Just look into it - especially the Bible - and consider your own motives as well.

 

My answer to all of the above is I don't know. My brainwashed mind leans towards the Bible being true even when the evidence is against it.

 

"I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?"

 

It's a damned mindfuck.

[Guest confused idiot]

I think that is an issue ... most of us because of what caused us to deconvert in the first could NEVER go back to it again ... we have too many reasons ALL TOGETHER which make the bible and the christian god unbelievable. It gets to the stage it becomes like someone asking you if you could go back to believing in Santa Claus again. One eventually DOES sort it out to that degree! IT TAKES WORK THOUGH!!!That is why I say a person who has TRULY deconverted can never go back to it EVER again!

 

I guess I'm in the middle of deconversion, inbetween Christianity and something else. I'm stuck, not being able to move in either direction.

[FiddlingAround]

 

My answer to all of the above is I don't know. My brainwashed mind leans towards the Bible being true even when the evidence is against it.

 

"I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?"

 

It's a damned mindfuck.

 

Okay, more specifically: What about it is a damned mindfuck?

[Realist]

In other words, rational thought may be hard to get rid of an irrational fear when there are no other catalysts to help. For instance I started my deconversion along these lines .... (in fact it just happened.) an evil family situation with my christian siblings. I remember "googling" "is christianity evil"? I found this site. I then started reading ... books like Dawkins ... Harris. They mirrored things I had already been coming to think. I then started seeing the contradictions, myths and lies in the bible ... it was like scales falling from my eyes. Everything started making FAR more sense ... the problem of evil ... why good people sometimes die ... and why bad sometimes live. Just everything started falling into place. The christian god I started seeing the human trademarks ... the mythology! His puniness! It just keeps going and going .... like to Energiser Bunny!!!I could carry this on for pages but I will not!

[Realist]

My brainwashed mind leans towards the Bible being true even when the evidence is against it.

It's a damned mindfuck.

 

... once again FEAR is causing that to the point of irrationality! It has become a phobia to you! That is why you really HAVE to get some outside help on this! The forum IS NOT going to do it by itself! The other thing that may help in the meantime is KEEP BUSY doing something!

[Guest confused idiot]

 

My answer to all of the above is I don't know. My brainwashed mind leans towards the Bible being true even when the evidence is against it.

 

"I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?"

 

It's a damned mindfuck.

 

Okay, more specifically: What about it is a damned mindfuck?

 

God is infinite. He knows everything that ever has happened, and everything that ever will happen. He created the Garden of Eden, placed the tree with the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden, unrestricted. He then placed the first man and woman in the garden, knowing before he created them that they were going to eat the fruit and curse mankind. Yet he allowed it anyway. That's like a parent allowing their baby to crawl out into the street, and getting pissed at the baby for getting hit by a car, when the parent could have stopped it. Anyway, because of what that first man did, the rest of mankind are cursed and damned, being punished for the sin of someone else. Anyone that is born is born under a curse that they are going to be punished for, when they didn't choose to be. God gives us a nature that he himself condemns. Attraction to the opposite sex is considered sinful, even though God gave us that attraction and desire. Most of mankind is headed for an eternal place of torment, where they can never die or escape. Just for being a human being. Just for being how God made us. We're puppets on a string in this sick game. We have no choice in the matter. Most are hated by God and predestined to hell, while a select few are chosen for salvation to go to heaven. Read Romans 9. If all that were not enough, just look at the stuff that Jesus commands people to do. Hate your family, love your enemies. Turn the other cheek, don't defend yourself, give unto those who ask, let people walk all over you and take all your stuff, let them beat you up, be a fucking doormat. If that's not a mindfuck, I don't know what is.

[Overcame Faith]

 

My answer to all of the above is I don't know. My brainwashed mind leans towards the Bible being true even when the evidence is against it.

 

"I'd have to ask why is it you're trying to get out of something you believe to be true?"

 

It's a damned mindfuck.

 

Okay, more specifically: What about it is a damned mindfuck?

 

God is infinite. He knows everything that ever has happened, and everything that ever will happen. He created the Garden of Eden, placed the tree with the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden, unrestricted. He then placed the first man and woman in the garden, knowing before he created them that they were going to eat the fruit and curse mankind. Yet he allowed it anyway. That's like a parent allowing their baby to crawl out into the street, and getting pissed at the baby for getting hit by a car, when the parent could have stopped it. Anyway, because of what that first man did, the rest of mankind are cursed and damned, being punished for the sin of someone else. Anyone that is born is born under a curse that they are going to be punished for, when they didn't choose to be. God gives us a nature that he himself condemns. Attraction to the opposite sex is considered sinful, even though God gave us that attraction and desire. Most of mankind is headed for an eternal place of torment, where they can never die or escape. Just for being a human being. Just for being how God made us. We're puppets on a string in this sick game. We have no choice in the matter. Most are hated by God and predestined to hell, while a select few are chosen for salvation to go to heaven. Read Romans 9. If all that were not enough, just look at the stuff that Jesus commands people to do. Hate your family, love your enemies. Turn the other cheek, don't defend yourself, give unto those who ask, let people walk all over you and take all your stuff, let them beat you up, be a fucking doormat. If that's not a mindfuck, I don't know what is.

 

And this isn't enough to convince you that christianity is a false religion?

[FiddlingAround]

 

God is infinite. He knows everything that ever has happened, and everything that ever will happen. He created the Garden of Eden, placed the tree with the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden, unrestricted. He then placed the first man and woman in the garden, knowing before he created them that they were going to eat the fruit and curse mankind. Yet he allowed it anyway. That's like a parent allowing their baby to crawl out into the street, and getting pissed at the baby for getting hit by a car, when the parent could have stopped it. Anyway, because of what that first man did, the rest of mankind are cursed and damned, being punished for the sin of someone else. Anyone that is born is born under a curse that they are going to be punished for, when they didn't choose to be. God gives us a nature that he himself condemns. Attraction to the opposite sex is considered sinful, even though God gave us that attraction and desire. Most of mankind is headed for an eternal place of torment, where they can never die or escape. Just for being a human being. Just for being how God made us. We're puppets on a string in this sick game. We have no choice in the matter. Most are hated by God and predestined to hell, while a select few are chosen for salvation to go to heaven. Read Romans 9. If all that were not enough, just look at the stuff that Jesus commands people to do. Hate your family, love your enemies. Turn the other cheek, don't defend yourself, give unto those who ask, let people walk all over you and take all your stuff, let them beat you up, be a fucking doormat. If that's not a mindfuck, I don't know what is.

 

Love your rant. Romans 9 is a particular pet peeve of mine. My long road to deconversion probably began the day I first read and understood that passage.

 

Deconversion for ethical reasons like this is reasonably common. And in a way, your comments above provide some evidence against the Bible. According to the Bible, every good thing in the world comes from god, including the ethical good sense to realize that the situation you describe is an incredible miscarriage of justice. Yet your ethics are superior to biblegod's. Yet, if the Bible is true, your ethics came from Biblegod's and therefore can only be a fallen, sinful version of his greatness.

 

Didn't the original Trek fry an android's brain with a conundrum like that?

 

 

Earlier in the thread, you described your tendency to believe as "conscience." But it sounds like, like me, you found believing to be a daily violation of your conscience.

 

You already see the book as ethically silly; the next step is just to see it as logically silly as well. Did you see the recent thread with the Bible contradictions game show? Funny, and gets the point across rather nicely.

 

But you probably know that, and what's holding you back is probably primarily long mental habit. I used to lay in bed terrified of hell, but eventually my emotions caught up with my brain and the fear faded. It'll happen for you, too - but when you reach the point where you're satisifed with your non-belief stance, it would probably fade a lot faster when you think about it a little less.

 

And now I've talked way too much and probably said something silly...but for what it's worth, here's my take.

[Guest confused idiot]

And this isn't enough to convince you that christianity is a false religion?

 

Just because it's depressing doesn't make it not true. Not by itself anyway. There are starving kids in the world without a single bite to eat. That's a depressing truth. Just because something is depreesing doesn't mean it's not true.

 

 

 

God is infinite. He knows everything that ever has happened, and everything that ever will happen. He created the Garden of Eden, placed the tree with the forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden, unrestricted. He then placed the first man and woman in the garden, knowing before he created them that they were going to eat the fruit and curse mankind. Yet he allowed it anyway. That's like a parent allowing their baby to crawl out into the street, and getting pissed at the baby for getting hit by a car, when the parent could have stopped it. Anyway, because of what that first man did, the rest of mankind are cursed and damned, being punished for the sin of someone else. Anyone that is born is born under a curse that they are going to be punished for, when they didn't choose to be. God gives us a nature that he himself condemns. Attraction to the opposite sex is considered sinful, even though God gave us that attraction and desire. Most of mankind is headed for an eternal place of torment, where they can never die or escape. Just for being a human being. Just for being how God made us. We're puppets on a string in this sick game. We have no choice in the matter. Most are hated by God and predestined to hell, while a select few are chosen for salvation to go to heaven. Read Romans 9. If all that were not enough, just look at the stuff that Jesus commands people to do. Hate your family, love your enemies. Turn the other cheek, don't defend yourself, give unto those who ask, let people walk all over you and take all your stuff, let them beat you up, be a fucking doormat. If that's not a mindfuck, I don't know what is.

 

Love your rant. Romans 9 is a particular pet peeve of mine. My long road to deconversion probably began the day I first read and understood that passage.

 

Deconversion for ethical reasons like this is reasonably common. And in a way, your comments above provide some evidence against the Bible. According to the Bible, every good thing in the world comes from god, including the ethical good sense to realize that the situation you describe is an incredible miscarriage of justice. Yet your ethics are superior to biblegod's. Yet, if the Bible is true, your ethics came from Biblegod's and therefore can only be a fallen, sinful version of his greatness.

 

Didn't the original Trek fry an android's brain with a conundrum like that?

 

 

Earlier in the thread, you described your tendency to believe as "conscience." But it sounds like, like me, you found believing to be a daily violation of your conscience.

 

You already see the book as ethically silly; the next step is just to see it as logically silly as well. Did you see the recent thread with the Bible contradictions game show? Funny, and gets the point across rather nicely.

 

But you probably know that, and what's holding you back is probably primarily long mental habit. I used to lay in bed terrified of hell, but eventually my emotions caught up with my brain and the fear faded. It'll happen for you, too - but when you reach the point where you're satisifed with your non-belief stance, it would probably fade a lot faster when you think about it a little less.

 

And now I've talked way too much and probably said something silly...but for what it's worth, here's my take.

 

Something is not clicking. There's still a missing piece to the puzzle.

[FiddlingAround]

 

Something is not clicking. There's still a missing piece to the puzzle.

 

Can you be more specific? What, other than internal feelings on the matter, makes you consider it possible the christianity might be true?

[Guest Valk0010]

 

 

Just because it's depressing doesn't make it not true. Not by itself anyway. There are starving kids in the world without a single bite to eat. That's a depressing truth. Just because something is depressing doesn't mean it's not true.

 

Yeah not always, but one is left to wonder, in the case of god, why is it so harmful or depressing and corrosive. It is hard to explain I just have a hard time buying that, in a religious discussion.

 

Something is not clicking. There's still a missing piece to the puzzle.

 

Your going have to find that missing piece I don't think any of us can find it for you, we are only able to find our own.

[Phanta]

Hell and religion are one in the same. If you doubt religion why not doubt hell.

 

I doubt religion, but I don't necessarily know that it's a lie. It's part of the indoctrination. Something tells me, even from stuff I've read on here before, even after escaping religion, there's a part of it that never leaves you. It may get better, but it won't go away.

 

It does become a deep part of you. (That's why I prefer dating atheists.) People are able to pretty well neutralize it's effects, though. That's something to talk about with your counselor, for sure.

 

Phanta

[Guest Valk0010]

Ever considered panentheism?

 

Look it up my suprise you. Mes thinking of become one myself.

[Overcame Faith]

And this isn't enough to convince you that christianity is a false religion?

 

Just because it's depressing doesn't make it not true. Not by itself anyway. There are starving kids in the world without a single bite to eat. That's a depressing truth. Just because something is depreesing doesn't mean it's not true.

 

No, no. What you wrote is not just depressing. You brilliantly pointed out the contradictions and the silliness of it all. I think you are closer to casting christianity to the swine than you think you are. Move these thoughts away from the emotional level and intellectualize them. Don't just say the words in anger and despair, but think about what you are writing and form the logical conclusions that your statements demand. Then embrace those conclusions.