I'm Completely Lost...

[Kris]

Confused Idiot-- I really do understand you-- probably better than most people do. You probably have always been extremely "concience-driven", one of those people who feels you must obey the rules, and do the right thing, so that you are not considered "bad". This is my nature as well, so doing something as radical as turning your back on religion runs so counter to how we operate (obeying the laws of god, for example)that it causes panic within.

 

Since you and I both have a fear of being bad, we automatically assume that the result of our wrongdoing will land us directly in Hell. My fears also encompass the end-time business along with the final desination of hell, but I think that it all centers around spending an eternity suffering for mistakes that I have made as a human. Frankly, this entire concept sucks!! One thing that always bothered me when I was religious was the thought that god would send some of my favorite people to roast for eternity (including my beloved grandmother!!) because she was not a good christian. I knew what a great person she was, and would have rather cut off my toe than see her suffer!! I wondered how god could not care enough about her to cut her some slack and see that she was just living her life-- and that nothing that she did wrong should cause her to suffer for eternity! I mean, doesn't that smack of such selfishness and egoism?

 

The more I think about god according to the bible, the less I can believe that he is real. Any creator would do all he could to keep his creation loved and well taken care of-- much like a parent to a child. What kind of creator provides his creation with natural impulses (like to have sex-married or not), or to question things, and then punishes them for acting on those impulses-- seems to be a lose-lose battle. As I mull all of this over, I have to come to the conclusion that what was written in the bible was done by man-- trying to influence people to support their beliefs-- and what better way to do so, than by fear!! As you and I well know, it is a hook for many people. I remember a popular end-time preacher that one of my churches hired on a regular basis so that people would get "scared" into going to church. Frankly, this concept offended me-- and still does. And, as a result, has to make me question why a god would want to send billions of his creation to an eternal roasting just for kicks. I can't support that kind of leadership.

 

Do I sometimes worry that I am going to find out that I am wrong--of course-- Hell has been a spector hanging over my head for 30+ years now--- but I am also trying to reason out why the concept is just so wrong to begin with. I had to have surgery a couple of years back, and was terrified that I might not make it. It was the most awful thing that I have ever gone through. I had basically decided that I did not believe in god, and yet was confronted with the idea that I might find out really soon whether or not all of the bible stuff I had been taught was true. Let me just say, that god did not provide me any peace during this time-- but I did feel comforted by the tangible love and support of my family. I was unconsious for many hours and at no time, did I see heaven or hell-- I just basically did not exist during that time. The truth is, that is what death will likely be. As egotistical as humans are, we just can't believe that we will not live on-- but for me, that would be heaven!!

[Overcame Faith]

Confused Idiot-- I really do understand you-- probably better than most people do. You probably have always been extremely "concience-driven", one of those people who feels you must obey the rules, and do the right thing, so that you are not considered "bad". This is my nature as well, so doing something as radical as turning your back on religion runs so counter to how we operate (obeying the laws of god, for example)that it causes panic within.

 

Since you and I both have a fear of being bad, we automatically assume that the result of our wrongdoing will land us directly in Hell. My fears also encompass the end-time business along with the final desination of hell, but I think that it all centers around spending an eternity suffering for mistakes that I have made as a human. Frankly, this entire concept sucks!! One thing that always bothered me when I was religious was the thought that god would send some of my favorite people to roast for eternity (including my beloved grandmother!!) because she was not a good christian. I knew what a great person she was, and would have rather cut off my toe than see her suffer!! I wondered how god could not care enough about her to cut her some slack and see that she was just living her life-- and that nothing that she did wrong should cause her to suffer for eternity! I mean, doesn't that smack of such selfishness and egoism?

 

The more I think about god according to the bible, the less I can believe that he is real. Any creator would do all he could to keep his creation loved and well taken care of-- much like a parent to a child. What kind of creator provides his creation with natural impulses (like to have sex-married or not), or to question things, and then punishes them for acting on those impulses-- seems to be a lose-lose battle. As I mull all of this over, I have to come to the conclusion that what was written in the bible was done by man-- trying to influence people to support their beliefs-- and what better way to do so, than by fear!! As you and I well know, it is a hook for many people. I remember a popular end-time preacher that one of my churches hired on a regular basis so that people would get "scared" into going to church. Frankly, this concept offended me-- and still does. And, as a result, has to make me question why a god would want to send billions of his creation to an eternal roasting just for kicks. I can't support that kind of leadership.

 

Do I sometimes worry that I am going to find out that I am wrong--of course-- Hell has been a spector hanging over my head for 30+ years now--- but I am also trying to reason out why the concept is just so wrong to begin with. I had to have surgery a couple of years back, and was terrified that I might not make it. It was the most awful thing that I have ever gone through. I had basically decided that I did not believe in god, and yet was confronted with the idea that I might find out really soon whether or not all of the bible stuff I had been taught was true. Let me just say, that god did not provide me any peace during this time-- but I did feel comforted by the tangible love and support of my family. I was unconsious for many hours and at no time, did I see heaven or hell-- I just basically did not exist during that time. The truth is, that is what death will likely be. As egotistical as humans are, we just can't believe that we will not live on-- but for me, that would be heaven!!

 

Well, said, Kris. I see you are making progress. Bravo!!

 

Confused Idiot, you should take note of Kris's words. She is truly a sister in your difficult journey and I am certain that when she says she understands you, she really does. It's the kind of understanding that no amount of money can buy for you.

[Kris]

Thanks for the kind words-- I am trying!! But, that is what these boards are for-- can you imagine grappling with some of these very questions back in the 1800's-- and not having the type of support that forums like this provide-- Priceless!!

 

The most important thing that I think people need to remember when deconverting is that our minds can be our friends just as much as they can be our enemies. If we can replace the "scary" thoughts that pop into our heads, with thoughts of reason, then eventually our fears will begin to recede--it all comes down to mind control. Please don't give up Confused-- you are like me in that you now at that point in your life that has lead you to where you know that you cannot go back to a Christian lifestyle-- but you have to convince yourself that all of those ties that bound you through fear can be broken-- without harming you or your soul!! Ask yourself if you really could support a god that would send a small african child to hell simply because he was born to a witch doctor that has never heard of the way of salvation? or a really good person who slips up and steals a loaf of bread to feed his family? or a person that really enjoys the song "Stairway to Heaven" even though when played backwards it supposedly supports the devil? or a former christian with enough balls to question things that just don't seem right? Hell seems like it will be pretty crowded to me!!

 

Also, take a look at some of the heros of the bible and ask yourself whether or not their actions should warrant them entry into heaven-- David? He had a man killed just so he could be with his wife? Solomon? The wisest man who ever lived, who had bunches of wives and worshipped other gods? Peter? He actually walked with Jesus and then turned around and denied him-- kind of like denying the Holy Ghost, huh? I mean, if these are the examples of people that god looks upon favorably, then perhaps we all have a chance then? Or, the reality is that the bible was written by man, and those men did not realize how stupid all of this garbage would seem when viewed through the critical eye of reason.

[★ Citsonga ★]

Confused Idiot-- I really do understand you-- probably better than most people do. You probably have always been extremely "concience-driven", one of those people who feels you must obey the rules, and do the right thing, so that you are not considered "bad". This is my nature as well, so doing something as radical as turning your back on religion runs so counter to how we operate (obeying the laws of god, for example)that it causes panic within.

 

Since you and I both have a fear of being bad, we automatically assume that the result of our wrongdoing will land us directly in Hell. My fears also encompass the end-time business along with the final desination of hell, but I think that it all centers around spending an eternity suffering for mistakes that I have made as a human. Frankly, this entire concept sucks!! One thing that always bothered me when I was religious was the thought that god would send some of my favorite people to roast for eternity (including my beloved grandmother!!) because she was not a good christian. I knew what a great person she was, and would have rather cut off my toe than see her suffer!! I wondered how god could not care enough about her to cut her some slack and see that she was just living her life-- and that nothing that she did wrong should cause her to suffer for eternity! I mean, doesn't that smack of such selfishness and egoism?

 

The more I think about god according to the bible, the less I can believe that he is real. Any creator would do all he could to keep his creation loved and well taken care of-- much like a parent to a child. What kind of creator provides his creation with natural impulses (like to have sex-married or not), or to question things, and then punishes them for acting on those impulses-- seems to be a lose-lose battle. As I mull all of this over, I have to come to the conclusion that what was written in the bible was done by man-- trying to influence people to support their beliefs-- and what better way to do so, than by fear!! As you and I well know, it is a hook for many people. I remember a popular end-time preacher that one of my churches hired on a regular basis so that people would get "scared" into going to church. Frankly, this concept offended me-- and still does. And, as a result, has to make me question why a god would want to send billions of his creation to an eternal roasting just for kicks. I can't support that kind of leadership.

 

Do I sometimes worry that I am going to find out that I am wrong--of course-- Hell has been a spector hanging over my head for 30+ years now--- but I am also trying to reason out why the concept is just so wrong to begin with. I had to have surgery a couple of years back, and was terrified that I might not make it. It was the most awful thing that I have ever gone through. I had basically decided that I did not believe in god, and yet was confronted with the idea that I might find out really soon whether or not all of the bible stuff I had been taught was true. Let me just say, that god did not provide me any peace during this time-- but I did feel comforted by the tangible love and support of my family. I was unconsious for many hours and at no time, did I see heaven or hell-- I just basically did not exist during that time. The truth is, that is what death will likely be. As egotistical as humans are, we just can't believe that we will not live on-- but for me, that would be heaven!!

 

Well, said, Kris.

 

I agree, well said.

 

My only counterpoint would be that not everyone who is "conscience-driven" will automatically be scared of hell. I am and always have been a very "conscience-driven" person, but my transition away from the faith was based on the evidence I saw that led to my perception of truth. Since I could no longer see the bible as true, I could no longer see the hell (technically "lake of fire," but that's another issue) of the bible as being true. If it's not true, then there's nothing to fear.

 

So, unlike many on this board, I didn't have an overwhelming fear of hell during and after my deconversion. I seem to be in the minority on that, but that's the way it was with me, and again I consider myself to be "conscience-driven."

 

But I don't want to be too nitpicky, so once again I'll give my affirmation: Well said.

[Guest confused idiot]

Posted by FiddlingAround:

 

"Can you be more specific?"

 

Sorry. Last night I was so tired I couldn't think straight, and my posts probably didn't make much sense. So that's all I knew to put.

 

"What, other than internal feelings on the matter, makes you consider it possible the christianity might be true?"

 

The most important thing, which is personal experience, is not one of the things that make me believe it's true. But other things, like stories I've heard, testimonies about all kinds of things, make me believe that it almost has to be true. Some prophecies in the Bible do also, the non self-fulfilling ones anyway. It's hard to figure out, am I feeling this way because of God/The Holy Spirit, or just because I've injected it so deep into my brain.

 

Posted by Valk:

 

"Yeah not always, but one is left to wonder, in the case of god, why is it so harmful or depressing and corrosive. It is hard to explain I just have a hard time buying that, in a religious discussion."

 

There are so many ways of looking at it.... Is it seen as harmful and depressing because we're evil wicked people, or because it really is?

 

"Your going have to find that missing piece I don't think any of us can find it for you, we are only able to find our own."

 

You're right.

 

"Ever considered panentheism?

 

Look it up my suprise you. Mes thinking of become one myself."

 

I've heard a little bit about it. It's always a possibility, I guess.

 

Posted by Phanta:

 

"It does become a deep part of you. (That's why I prefer dating atheists.) People are able to pretty well neutralize it's effects, though. That's something to talk about with your counselor, for sure."

No doubt.

 

Posted by Overcame Faith:

 

"No, no. What you wrote is not just depressing. You brilliantly pointed out the contradictions and the silliness of it all. I think you are closer to casting christianity to the swine than you think you are. Move these thoughts away from the emotional level and intellectualize them. Don't just say the words in anger and despair, but think about what you are writing and form the logical conclusions that your statements demand. Then embrace those conclusions."

 

Agh, I guess that is what I'm doing. I'm looking at it from an emotional level. I need to stop doing that.

 

Posted by Kris:

 

"Confused Idiot-- I really do understand you-- probably better than most people do. You probably have always been extremely "concience-driven", one of those people who feels you must obey the rules, and do the right thing, so that you are not considered "bad"."

 

I don't know... You might could say that. I don't think I've always been that way necessarily, but when I started getting really serious with religion, I had to be perfectly right with every single aspect of my life. I wasn't gonna just do a half-assed job with it, I was gonna truly live for God and do what he wanted. Then as I started getting more and more OCD-like with it, when I was even analyzing whether it was wrong to wear casual clothing and stupid things like that, I begged God in prayer for guidance about these things, so I would know what to do. I never heard from him, he never gave me any answers. So when it comes to the times in my life where I really wanted to be "right", your description is spot on.

 

"This is my nature as well, so doing something as radical as turning your back on religion runs so counter to how we operate (obeying the laws of god, for example)that it causes panic within."

 

Exactly right.

 

"Since you and I both have a fear of being bad, we automatically assume that the result of our wrongdoing will land us directly in Hell. My fears also encompass the end-time business along with the final desination of hell, but I think that it all centers around spending an eternity suffering for mistakes that I have made as a human. Frankly, this entire concept sucks!!"

 

Saying it sucks is an understatement.

 

"One thing that always bothered me when I was religious was the thought that god would send some of my favorite people to roast for eternity (including my beloved grandmother!!) because she was not a good christian. I knew what a great person she was, and would have rather cut off my toe than see her suffer!! I wondered how god could not care enough about her to cut her some slack and see that she was just living her life-- and that nothing that she did wrong should cause her to suffer for eternity! I mean, doesn't that smack of such selfishness and egoism?"

 

I hear you. I never had much experience in that area, having people very close to me that wasn't a Christian, so I can't say much here. But I guarantee you, if I had, at that point in my life, it would have drove me insane.

 

"The more I think about god according to the bible, the less I can believe that he is real. Any creator would do all he could to keep his creation loved and well taken care of-- much like a parent to a child. What kind of creator provides his creation with natural impulses (like to have sex-married or not), or to question things, and then punishes them for acting on those impulses-- seems to be a lose-lose battle."

 

I get pissed whenever I think about that. Instead of it making me suspicious that it's not real, like it probably does to most, it just makes me believe in a cruel depressing truth, making me angrier.

 

"As I mull all of this over, I have to come to the conclusion that what was written in the bible was done by man-- trying to influence people to support their beliefs-- and what better way to do so, than by fear!! As you and I well know, it is a hook for many people. I remember a popular end-time preacher that one of my churches hired on a regular basis so that people would get "scared" into going to church. Frankly, this concept offended me-- and still does. And, as a result, has to make me question why a god would want to send billions of his creation to an eternal roasting just for kicks. I can't support that kind of leadership."

 

It offends me too. Well, actually it just pisses me off, but I guess that's the same thing.

 

"Do I sometimes worry that I am going to find out that I am wrong--of course-- Hell has been a spector hanging over my head for 30+ years now--- but I am also trying to reason out why the concept is just so wrong to begin with. I had to have surgery a couple of years back, and was terrified that I might not make it. It was the most awful thing that I have ever gone through. I had basically decided that I did not believe in god, and yet was confronted with the idea that I might find out really soon whether or not all of the bible stuff I had been taught was true. Let me just say, that god did not provide me any peace during this time-- but I did feel comforted by the tangible love and support of my family. I was unconsious for many hours and at no time, did I see heaven or hell-- I just basically did not exist during that time. The truth is, that is what death will likely be. As egotistical as humans are, we just can't believe that we will not live on-- but for me, that would be heaven!!"

 

That's rough, having to go through that. But coming out of it made you stronger, am I right?

 

"Thanks for the kind words-- I am trying!! But, that is what these boards are for-- can you imagine grappling with some of these very questions back in the 1800's-- and not having the type of support that forums like this provide-- Priceless!!"

That would suck.

 

"The most important thing that I think people need to remember when deconverting is that our minds can be our friends just as much as they can be our enemies. If we can replace the "scary" thoughts that pop into our heads, with thoughts of reason, then eventually our fears will begin to recede--it all comes down to mind control."

 

Yes.

 

"Please don't give up Confused-- you are like me in that you now at that point in your life that has lead you to where you know that you cannot go back to a Christian lifestyle-- but you have to convince yourself that all of those ties that bound you through fear can be broken-- without harming you or your soul!!"

 

You're right. I can't go back to Christianity. But I also can't progressively move forward due to anxiety. But then I start to question, maybe the anxiety is there for a reason... Maybe it's God.... and then the cycle starts over.

 

"Ask yourself if you really could support a god that would send a small african child to hell simply because he was born to a witch doctor that has never heard of the way of salvation? or a really good person who slips up and steals a loaf of bread to feed his family? or a person that really enjoys the song "Stairway to Heaven" even though when played backwards it supposedly supports the devil? or a former christian with enough balls to question things that just don't seem right? Hell seems like it will be pretty crowded to me!!"

I don't think I could. You're right, hell seems like it would be pretty crowded. It also seems like there would be a lot of good people there.

 

"Also, take a look at some of the heros of the bible and ask yourself whether or not their actions should warrant them entry into heaven-- David? He had a man killed just so he could be with his wife? Solomon? The wisest man who ever lived, who had bunches of wives and worshipped other gods? Peter? He actually walked with Jesus and then turned around and denied him-- kind of like denying the Holy Ghost, huh? I mean, if these are the examples of people that god looks upon favorably, then perhaps we all have a chance then? Or, the reality is that the bible was written by man, and those men did not realize how stupid all of this garbage would seem when viewed through the critical eye of reason."

Yeah, but these guys repented, did they not? Maybe it was put in there to show that we all have a chance, and God does love us despite our mistakes. Or maybe not. Maybe it's bullshit. I don't know.

[Overcame Faith]

Hi, Confused. Based on your above post, I like your outlook today. You seem more positive.

[★ Citsonga ★]

"Also, take a look at some of the heros of the bible and ask yourself whether or not their actions should warrant them entry into heaven-- David? He had a man killed just so he could be with his wife? Solomon? The wisest man who ever lived, who had bunches of wives and worshipped other gods? Peter? He actually walked with Jesus and then turned around and denied him-- kind of like denying the Holy Ghost, huh? I mean, if these are the examples of people that god looks upon favorably, then perhaps we all have a chance then? Or, the reality is that the bible was written by man, and those men did not realize how stupid all of this garbage would seem when viewed through the critical eye of reason."

Yeah, but these guys repented, did they not? Maybe it was put in there to show that we all have a chance, and God does love us despite our mistakes. Or maybe not. Maybe it's bullshit. I don't know.

 

Not Solomon. In fact, the bible says in 1 Kings 11 that his heart turned away from god and that was what prompted god to tear the kingdom from Solomon and his descendants. This is one who is referred to as being the wisest man who ever lived, and even Jesus supposedly acknowledged his wisdom in Matt 12:42, yet he was disobedient and turned from god. (So maybe the moral of the story is that it is wise to turn from biblegod, haha!)

 

Of course, I take the "it's bullshit" stance myself, but that's beside the point here.

[Kris]

I have worried that god is trying to "tell me something" too-- but by scaring the hell out of you is the only way he can get his point across-- there is a problem!! How about the time you begged him for guidance--couldn't he have put a peace in your soul at that time that would have validated your faith in him. I think that you (and I) are going through a "guilt" phase right now.

 

When I was going to church--even going to bible college for a while!-- I never felt that sense that god was looking out for me, like other people described. I honestly felt like I was faking the whole thing in order to try to avoid going to hell. Now, I am just honest enough to say that I don't believe in the christianity concept, and that the only hell that we have to get through is in our day-to-day life. That seems so much more honest in my opinion!!

[orlando]

I think doubting the religion you were brought up to believe was true hits different people harder than others, depending on your personality. It does feel like a betrayal in many ways, that people you trusted told you something was true, when it turns out it has no solid foundations. And it hurts as well if you thought everything was basically going to always be "alright" because a loving and just and powerful force was in charge, even if his ways seem "mysterious" some times... But it happens again and again that the more people study Christianity with an open mind, the more they doubt and see holes in it - that in itself seems to me to give even more proof that it is likely to be untrue. Why would God have made it so that sincere seekers eventually move away from the faith? And therefore by Christian "logic" are going to Hell while ignorant people who never took much real interest in religion are going to Heaven for their naive "faith". I could soon see from things like that that the Bible/Christian god most likely was not true. However no other form of religiouns teaching has ever really rung true to me either, and proved itself to me to be something other than delusion or wishful thinking.

 

As for the something must have started things, one answer is that scientists say time and space themselves started in the big bang therefore it makes no sense to ask what was before. As for what started it, no one knows, but that is not to say we might not work it out one day. But just making up an answer like "God did it" doesn't really help. Also , if he was the creator, then who created him , and so on. It's OK to admit we don't know everything.

The fact that our planet is just right for us to live on, is self expanatory really - life, or life like us anyway, may be very very rare in our universe, and if we were going to end up living anywhere it had to be in one of those places that suit us to live. Otherwise we would not be here at all , asking the question.

 

Re. fulfilled prohecies, the problem is that in terms of NT ones, many people would argue it is likely the stories were written down after the events they "prophecy" and the prophecies were invented to make Jesus look good. As far as OT ones go, in many cases verses taken as "prophecy" by christians are not prophecies in their context and/or refer to something different from what Christians try to take them to mean. Sometimes also the Greek version of the OT the gospel writers used sounds more like a prophecy than the original Hebrew version - the most famous example being "a virgin shall give birth", which only meant "a young woman shall give birth" in the original Hebrew. Finally there is also the strong likelihood that the gospel writers invented some parts of their stories so they seemed to fulfil OT passages - Mathew is the one who does it most blatantly, but they all seem to do it - for example some of the things in the crucifixion strories are direct quotes from the psalms or prophets. As the Christian swere keen to prove to their skeptical jewish comtempories that Jesus had been the Messiah, it's not surprising they tweaked their accounts in this way.

 

I don't have the answer to your depression, but you may be one of those people who find that just looking at the world without the filter of religious superstition makes them feel more clear-headed and able to stand on their own two feet better. There are less rules handed to you and you have to work out your own values and priorities.

 

I hope you get through this OK.

[Kris]

Great point, Citsongsa--I was going to try to do a little more research on David, Solomon and a few others, but you beat me to it with your post. The whole point that I am trying to make is that in the bible--some people did really bad stuff and seemed to get away with it, while others did really minor stuff, and god punished them-- like the guy who tried to balance the Ark of the Covenant because it was slipping-- god killed him for touching it-- how stupid is that!! The guy was just trying to help!! Seems really petty to me! How long should we keep believing all of this without questioning it?

[florduh]

Please, everyone hung up on this ridiculous religion and suffering because of it . . .

 

Stop poring over Bible verses and chewing on bits of dogma that other people have invented. Read a real book, play baseball, make a movie, read to the blind, help at the SPCA. Reality beckons. No need to waste a life fretting about imaginary gods, demons, spooks and the boogie man. The religion that has taken over your thoughts is merely an accident of where you were born. If you were Haitian you'd likely be afraid of the Voodoo gods. BTW, they don't exist either.

 

Get out and DO something, preferably for somebody else. Your perspective on reality and superstition will improve. Nobody can make you take a step toward the door and go into the world, so do it yourself.

[Guest confused idiot]

Please, everyone hung up on this ridiculous religion and suffering because of it . . .

 

Stop poring over Bible verses and chewing on bits of dogma that other people have invented. Read a real book, play baseball, make a movie, read to the blind, help at the SPCA. Reality beckons. No need to waste a life fretting about imaginary gods, demons, spooks and the boogie man. The religion that has taken over your thoughts is merely an accident of where you were born. If you were Haitian you'd likely be afraid of the Voodoo gods. BTW, they don't exist either.

 

Get out and DO something, preferably for somebody else. Your perspective on reality and superstition will improve. Nobody can make you take a step toward the door and go into the world, so do it yourself.

 

You speak the truth.

[Guest confused idiot]

Not Solomon. In fact, the bible says in 1 Kings 11 that his heart turned away from god and that was what prompted god to tear the kingdom from Solomon and his descendants. This is one who is referred to as being the wisest man who ever lived, and even Jesus supposedly acknowledged his wisdom in Matt 12:42, yet he was disobedient and turned from god. (So maybe the moral of the story is that it is wise to turn from biblegod, haha!)

 

Of course, I take the "it's bullshit" stance myself, but that's beside the point here.

 

Forgive me, I'm not as familar with the Old Testament.

 

 

I have worried that god is trying to "tell me something" too-- but by scaring the hell out of you is the only way he can get his point across-- there is a problem!! How about the time you begged him for guidance--couldn't he have put a peace in your soul at that time that would have validated your faith in him. I think that you (and I) are going through a "guilt" phase right now.

 

When I was going to church--even going to bible college for a while!-- I never felt that sense that god was looking out for me, like other people described. I honestly felt like I was faking the whole thing in order to try to avoid going to hell. Now, I am just honest enough to say that I don't believe in the christianity concept, and that the only hell that we have to get through is in our day-to-day life. That seems so much more honest in my opinion!!

 

I know what you mean. Sometimes when I'm around people and I'm avoiding saying certain things, and saying other things instead, I feel like I'm faking it too.

 

 

I think doubting the religion you were brought up to believe was true hits different people harder than others, depending on your personality. It does feel like a betrayal in many ways, that people you trusted told you something was true, when it turns out it has no solid foundations. And it hurts as well if you thought everything was basically going to always be "alright" because a loving and just and powerful force was in charge, even if his ways seem "mysterious" some times... But it happens again and again that the more people study Christianity with an open mind, the more they doubt and see holes in it - that in itself seems to me to give even more proof that it is likely to be untrue. Why would God have made it so that sincere seekers eventually move away from the faith? And therefore by Christian "logic" are going to Hell while ignorant people who never took much real interest in religion are going to Heaven for their naive "faith". I could soon see from things like that that the Bible/Christian god most likely was not true. However no other form of religiouns teaching has ever really rung true to me either, and proved itself to me to be something other than delusion or wishful thinking.

 

As for the something must have started things, one answer is that scientists say time and space themselves started in the big bang therefore it makes no sense to ask what was before. As for what started it, no one knows, but that is not to say we might not work it out one day. But just making up an answer like "God did it" doesn't really help. Also , if he was the creator, then who created him , and so on. It's OK to admit we don't know everything.

The fact that our planet is just right for us to live on, is self expanatory really - life, or life like us anyway, may be very very rare in our universe, and if we were going to end up living anywhere it had to be in one of those places that suit us to live. Otherwise we would not be here at all , asking the question.

 

Re. fulfilled prohecies, the problem is that in terms of NT ones, many people would argue it is likely the stories were written down after the events they "prophecy" and the prophecies were invented to make Jesus look good. As far as OT ones go, in many cases verses taken as "prophecy" by christians are not prophecies in their context and/or refer to something different from what Christians try to take them to mean. Sometimes also the Greek version of the OT the gospel writers used sounds more like a prophecy than the original Hebrew version - the most famous example being "a virgin shall give birth", which only meant "a young woman shall give birth" in the original Hebrew. Finally there is also the strong likelihood that the gospel writers invented some parts of their stories so they seemed to fulfil OT passages - Mathew is the one who does it most blatantly, but they all seem to do it - for example some of the things in the crucifixion strories are direct quotes from the psalms or prophets. As the Christian swere keen to prove to their skeptical jewish comtempories that Jesus had been the Messiah, it's not surprising they tweaked their accounts in this way.

 

I don't have the answer to your depression, but you may be one of those people who find that just looking at the world without the filter of religious superstition makes them feel more clear-headed and able to stand on their own two feet better. There are less rules handed to you and you have to work out your own values and priorities.

 

I hope you get through this OK.

 

When I bring up fulfilled prophecies, I mainly mean the ones in the OT where it says something (not vague) is gonna happen, and it does.

 

 

Great point, Citsongsa--I was going to try to do a little more research on David, Solomon and a few others, but you beat me to it with your post. The whole point that I am trying to make is that in the bible--some people did really bad stuff and seemed to get away with it, while others did really minor stuff, and god punished them-- like the guy who tried to balance the Ark of the Covenant because it was slipping-- god killed him for touching it-- how stupid is that!! The guy was just trying to help!! Seems really petty to me! How long should we keep believing all of this without questioning it?

 

You bring up a good point. The "elect" get away with doing whatever they want, and the innocent ones (like the guy who tried to catch the Ark) were struck down for just trying to help, with pure motives.

[Kris]

I think that your head may be clearing and we will have to start calling you "Not-so-Confused Idiot"!!

[Guest confused idiot]

I think that your head may be clearing and we will have to start calling you "Not-so-Confused Idiot"!!

 

I wish that was the case, but I doubt it. In this thread, you can see a pattern going on with my posts. I'll rant about this stuff with a lot of anger and confusion, then I'll slowly start to "come to my senses", then it will look like I'm on the verge of breaking free... Then I'll break down again. It's a cycle.

[Kris]

Well, keep trying. That is all you can do. You can only change yourself. As you can see with the 67 pages worth of free therapy you have received-- people care! And, these caring, empathetic people would be considered evil by many of the christians that you probably used to hang out with-- that alone should get you thinking!!

[Guest confused idiot]

Well, keep trying. That is all you can do. You can only change yourself. As you can see with the 67 pages worth of free therapy you have received-- people care! And, these caring, empathetic people would be considered evil by many of the christians that you probably used to hang out with-- that alone should get you thinking!!

 

People genuinely care, that's a fact. A lot more than a lot of these radical Christians you'll encounter. If anybody bashes these people here on the forums, I'll be quick to stand up for them. These "evil" people are a whole lot more compassionate and caring than a lot of the so-called "saints". They actually recognize that religion can be the problem, not the solution - unlike the Christians who won't look past their Jesus goggles to see the mental anguish that their religion can cause.

[★ Citsonga ★]

others did really minor stuff, and god punished them-- like the guy who tried to balance the Ark of the Covenant because it was slipping-- god killed him for touching it-- how stupid is that!!

 

Oh, I know, I know!!! <raises hand> VERY stupid!

 

Please, everyone hung up on this ridiculous religion and suffering because of it . . .

 

Stop poring over Bible verses and chewing on bits of dogma that other people have invented. Read a real book, play baseball, make a movie, read to the blind, help at the SPCA. Reality beckons. No need to waste a life fretting about imaginary gods, demons, spooks and the boogie man. The religion that has taken over your thoughts is merely an accident of where you were born. If you were Haitian you'd likely be afraid of the Voodoo gods. BTW, they don't exist either.

 

Get out and DO something, preferably for somebody else. Your perspective on reality and superstition will improve. Nobody can make you take a step toward the door and go into the world, so do it yourself.

 

Good points. However, someone who's not sure that it's not from god or what all to make of it needs to deal with it to come to terms with reality. I had to when I was deconverting. Telling me to stop poring over the bible would not have been helpful in the least during the early phases of my deconversion.

[florduh]

someone who's not sure that it's not from god or what all to make of it needs to deal with it

One just needs to step back and not be immersed in the propaganda 24-7. That is not the way to understanding, but confusion and indoctrination.

 

Perhaps you can't force yourself to just start thinking differently, but you CAN force yourself to physically remove yourself from familiar surroundings that reinforce the same recurring thought patterns. I'm just suggesting that doing something useful rather than doing nothing different at all is a helpful technique.

[★ Citsonga ★]

someone who's not sure that it's not from god or what all to make of it needs to deal with it

One just needs to step back and not be immersed in the propaganda 24-7. That is not the way to understanding, but confusion and indoctrination.

 

Perhaps you can't force yourself to just start thinking differently, but you CAN force yourself to physically remove yourself from familiar surroundings that reinforce the same recurring thought patterns. I'm just suggesting that doing something useful rather than doing nothing different at all is a helpful technique.

 

But for someone thinking that it may indeed be from god, why would they want to separate themselves from it and risk losing out? While what you're saying makes perfect sense from a rational, non-indoctrinated perspective, you have to put yourself in the shoes of one who's still considering it to possibly be true to understand why those in that predicament often can't just drop it cold turkey.

[florduh]

But for someone thinking that it may indeed be from god, why would they want to separate themselves from it and risk losing out?

All I'm saying is give yourself a chance to think about something/somebody else for a change. The alternative is psychotherapy and/or wringing your hands the rest of your life.

 

Do something, do nothing. Those are the only choices, and doing nothing doesn't work.

[Shyone]

Hi, Confused. Based on your above post, I like your outlook today. You seem more positive.

I noted that CI posted in another thread. Reaching out to help others is something that helps one to understand themselves. Regardless of beliefs, one can see the problems others have and discuss those problems with them. It can be uplifting to everyone, including the readers.

 

I'm feeling very humanitarian today. Maybe it's because my back is killing me.

[florduh]

Maybe it's because my back is killing me.

Your Chi isn't balanced. Meditate and stick needles in your left foot. We don't need no stinkin' doctors!

 

(feel better soon)

[Shyone]

Maybe it's because my back is killing me.

Your Chi isn't balanced. Meditate and stick needles in your left foot. We don't need no stinkin' doctors!

 

(feel better soon)

Thanks! My back is better, but my left foot is killing me. (just kidding).

[Guest confused idiot]

As much as I don't want to appear weak, I almost feel like breaking down and weeping. No matter how much I read and learn, it's always countered with apologetics that are deeply embedded into my mind. No matter how much I try to take my mind off myself and do something for somebody else, or even something good for myself, I still can't get my mind off religion. Which raises the question again, am I being pursued by God? That furthers my anxiety. There's no escape. I couldn't find any peace in Christianity, and I can't find it elsewhere either. I don't know how to handle this....