Im A Christian Again

[Sconnor]

Believe it or not, there will come a day in your life where you will be accountable for your life. If you die without believing that Jesus is the only way, then you will go to hell (

 

The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be believed only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith.' -- Robert G. Ingersoll

 

Why is your supposed, all-loving god, so insecure and petty, that someone will not be saved (thereby being tortured, in the flamers of hell for an eternity), simply, because they didn't believe in him?

 

The Christian’s Delusion Of Salvation

 

God -- who so loved the WORLD -- initiated a plan, of restoration, by sending his son, (himself) to be tortured, crucified and sacrificed, to save humanity. Sinful, fallible, humanity -- who couldn't possibly save themselves -- in the end, must accept and believe in Jesus, so they can be saved and yet, the other 70% of the world -- at this moment in time -- are other religions, the non-religious, or unbelievers, who are not bible-believing Christians. Didn't God consider his other earthly children, when he put his feeble, plan into action? Looks like Jesus' torturous, sacrifice was futile. God's inept, plan is incapable of saving everyone and hinges on the fallible humans, who couldn't save themselves, in the first place. God’s plan for salvation is tragically flawed, wholly inadequate and morbidly negligent. The number of lost souls, throughout history, is monumentally, mind-blowing.

 

In other words you concept of god will torture the majority of his earthly children in the flames of hell for an eternity, simply, for being human.

 

Oh and supply objective evidence that one will go to hell if they do not believe in your Jesus.

 

Waiting..................

 

Well I used to think that hell did not exist either. I came across this site. I am not saying that this is absolute proof, but it did make me think. This Christian woman name Mary K Baxter experienced hell for herself when Jesus took her there. She explains that He kept her safe in hell, but was able to give her a glimpse of what was going to happen to those who do not follow Him.

 

I’ve obsessively research near death experiences and what I found was that the majority of experiencers -- when they came back from the light – were less religious and more spiritual and concluded that god ("the light"; the ultimate reality)doesn’t play favorites, or doesn’t care about doctrine, dogma, or rituals nor does he hold one religion as being true -- everyone will be saved and you ultimately judge yourself. What is truly important to "the light" is love, not religion or lip servive.

 

Check these sites out.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

http://www.near-death.com/about.html

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research24.html

 

 

--S.

[par4dcourse]

Believe it or not, there will come a day in your life where you will be accountable for your life. If you die without believing that Jesus is the only way, then you will go to hell (

 

You think people will roast in a barbecue pit forever and ever, perhaps friends or loved ones, and all you can muster is a frowny face? That's cold!

[Houndies]

I agree with most people here. If you reconverted you must have never really deconverted. I think you were just looking to sow some wild oats and thought that's what deconverting is about. Its not. Its about realizing how ridiculous and fabricated xtianity is and leaving because you can be a good person without it. Its not about watching bad movies and swearing. Plenty of xtians do that already. I would agree that your reconversion is based on emotion and also that you were probably lonely for your old crowd. All emotional reasons. Nonetheless, good luck. We'll all still be here when you decided to deconvert...again.

[bdp]

there will come a day in your life where you will be accountable for your life.

 

Other than here and now when the repercussions of choices hit - no, there won't.

[bdp]

Well I used to think that hell did not exist either. I came across this site. I am not saying that this is absolute proof, but it did make me think. This Christian woman name Mary K Baxter experienced hell for herself when Jesus took her there. She explains that He kept her safe in hell, but was able to give her a glimpse of what was going to happen to those who do not follow Him. She said He did this to show others the TRuth. There are like 8+ different audio tapes of what she experienced. It was horrific! I listened to them all oneday! She explained how she saw the tourture and how Chrisitans who used to be Christians had it the worst...eek! I know some may argue this women's credibility but she is like a middle aged woman who is married has children and did NOT become famous from this. She made some money cause she wrote a book but not a lot. She has NO reason to lie. At least check it out. CHeck out the first few audio tapes of what she saw and experienced in HELL! This is not scientific proof, but again she is not a televangaist so she has not reason to lie.

 

 

[florduh]

. . . experienced hell for herself when Jesus took her there.

That's just idiotic. Get a grip. Something like that is too stupid to even be Biblical, and that's saying something because that book has some crazy shit in it. If you knew your Bible you wouldn't take that claim seriously.

[Dagan]

Enjoy your world of black and white absolutes.

 

And your god who sees fit for the majority of all people who ever lived to be tortured for all eternity because someone ate a piece of fruit once.

 

I don't think you really researched anything. Try looking at the origins of the gospels. Earliest manuscripts. Variations in the stories. Correlation with non-biblical sources and archaeology. That's just the tip of the mountain of bullshit the bible is built on. And with no bible, all you have is warm fuzzies from god.

 

If that's good enough for you, have a wonderful life.

[Dagan]

Interesting. When I deconverted, I still wanted to be a Christian. I wanted to believe. I just found out too much about how the world works that I couldn't believe.

Exactly.

 

I didn't stop believing because I didn't want to believe anymore. I stopped believing because I just couldn't believe it was true anymore.

 

To me, it sounds like our re-converted friend came here with the will to de-convert, but it doesn't work that way. We can't just turn on and off our beliefs.

 

Ditto, and well-put, both of you.

[Deva]

Realist---

 

I do respect you and your lifestyle. ...

 

Sorry, I'm not seeing it.

 

Come on Justyna. Get real. Relate to other people like they were human beings and not "saved" and "lost" THEN we will see respect.

[Ouroboros]

Well I used to think that hell did not exist either. I came across this site. I am not saying that this is absolute proof, but it did make me think.

Correct. It's not evidence. She had a nightmare. Unicorns do not come into existence just because people are dreaming about them.

 

This Christian woman name Mary K Baxter experienced hell for herself when Jesus took her there.

Here is a website made by a Christian: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/mary_k_baxter.htm.

He, a Christian, debunk Baxter's claims based on the Bible. Stewart argues that Baxter is a FALSE prophet and is derailing Christians from the true faith.

 

I've seen Christians put her in the category of Christian Mysticists.

 

She explains that He kept her safe in hell, but was able to give her a glimpse of what was going to happen to those who do not follow Him. She said He did this to show others the TRuth. There are like 8+ different audio tapes of what she experienced. It was horrific! I listened to them all oneday! She explained how she saw the tourture and how Chrisitans who used to be Christians had it the worst...eek!

I've seen horror movies, they're also incredible horrific and terrible. People tortured, maimed, and killed. Does that make those movies true? Well. They're describing awful things, so all the movies must be true! No?

 

I know some may argue this women's credibility but she is like a middle aged woman who is married has children and did NOT become famous from this.

She didn't become famous, and yet you know about her... Hmm... It's obvious that she got some fame from this. She's been translated to 20 different languages. It wouldn't surprise me if she has sold millions of the books. I heard about her many years ago, in Sweden. In other words, she's not unknown at all.

 

She made some money cause she wrote a book but not a lot.

They always say that. How do you know? I heard charlatans say the same thing. "Oh, I'm not making any money from this, so the book is really cheap, only $24.99. All of it goes to printing costs and promotion."

 

Yeah. Promotion = money in their pocket. $2 to print, $22 to pocket.

 

She has NO reason to lie.

How do you know that? It's typical for people who get conned to defend the con-artist. I believe you're protecting yourself from admitting that you've been had. It's shameful to fall for something like that, and it's hard to admit it.

 

It's just like old ladies falling for con-artists, and later when they get to know the truth, they deny the truth and defend the criminal.

 

At least check it out. CHeck out the first few audio tapes of what she saw and experienced in HELL! This is not scientific proof, but again she is not a televangaist so she has not reason to lie.

I've seen her on TV. She's just another kind of "tele-evangelist."

 

The meaning of tele-evangelist is very simple, it means that someone is trying to evangelize their religion in media that works over long distances. The Internet is a "tele" technology in that sense, and she's definitely trying to convert people to her Jesus-cult.

[bdp]

Some people lie for emotional reasons - self-esteem issues and all that. Need for attention.

[Yalta]

I noticed that she hasn't been back for a while. I guess her inability to convert us back by pulling tricks like lying to us about what we really are or how we really think, or recycling the same Christian arguments that many of us used ourselves back when we were Christian, has discouraged her. She probably thought "I'll pretend to be one of them, then pretend I became a Christian again, and then they'll believe me and follow me back!"

 

Heh, that would stand a better chance of working if she actually made an effort to understand what we think, why we think it, and what kinds of life experiences we had. Many of us here were Christians far longer than I've been alive (I'm 29)! Yet she thinks that by repeating Christian arguments like Pascal's Wager, that many of us used ourselves in the past, that we'll somehow suddenly believe OUR OWN DEBUNKED PAST ARGUMENTS FROM WHEN WE USED TO BE CHRISTIAN and come rushing back.

 

What an obvious troll. Now I understand why Christian groups freak out when someone posts on *their* forums saying "I have doubts." They must get trolled as much as we do by fakers. Not that I'm defending Justyna's trolling of us or advocating the same of them, but I'm just saying it probably cuts both ways.

 

I hope Justyna reads the posts and learns something, especially from the one poster who said that rocks were thrown at her by Christians at her college, and learns that we get persecuted too, especially in parts of the Bible Belt (I am lucky to live in suburban New Jersey, where people are pretty tolerant of each other, at least from my experience). But I think she merely left out of frustration and isn't really willing to hear our side of the story. Hell, actually reading our side of the story and trying to think like us would have actually made her more effective at "penetrating our ranks", so to speak, but I'm not surprised that a Christian troll isn't that smart.

[Yalta]

Weird. She registered in September of last year. Either she's a very dedicated troll, or she genuinely was backsliding, but returned to her old ways, including using the same tired old Christian arguments that we used to use. Very odd. I don't know what to make of Justyna.

[Guest Justyna]

I have read everyone's comments. I was not able to comment before because I was busy. I guess it is what it is. I just shared my story, if it helps someone, then great. If not, then I can say I genuinely tried. I know there are a lot of theories out there, a lot of science, and a lot of new information. They are all great and good to know but they are not going to save you. They all lead to dead ends. I do know that for a fact now. I guess that is all I wanted to say at this point.

[Yalta]

It seems strange to me that your replies were just generic Christian apologetics though. I mean, it's like you didn't make much effort to debunk what we said. And you have to realize, that a lot of what you're saying and believing is exactly what we used to say and believe ourselves. Seriously. Many of us used Pascal's Wager ("Believe in [the Christian version of] God and Jesus or else! I mean, what if you're wrong? Then the consequences will be dire! If I'm wrong, then oh well."), and appeals to fear like, well, what you just said "they are not going to save you". Threats of not being saved, of being in trouble when Jesus comes back, etc. Many of us said this stuff ourselves. We quoted the Bible, we told people that if we were right and they were wrong, then they'd be in big trouble, etc. Then we, for various reasons depending on the individual, stopped believing in it. Now such arguments that once came out of our own mouths look silly to us.

 

How do you deal with Bible contradictions? Have you seen sites like Skeptic's Annotated Bible? I mean, it's so strange that you're not even trying to actually attack our arguments or prove them wrong with logic like we do with those of Christians. You just use our own former arguments from when we used to believe in Christianity. How do you expect to convince us with that? It won't work.

 

But oh well, I guess we're screwed when Jesus comes back. Like Christians of various sects have been claiming he would again and again. Heck, one new member posted her deconversion story and said that she hadn't planned on the Earth existing after she got out of high school or college, as the whole "Jesus is coming back soon" idea had been drilled into her all her life. The belief that he's coming back isn't new. It's old as the whole belief system itself.

 

What do you think about the fact that gods walking on water, or gods having human sons, were all myths invented before Christianity? Or the fact that the winter solstice which falls on December 25, and decoration of a tree, are pagan ideas later adopted by Christians? And the idea of Jesus being born on that date came about from the pope a few centuries after Christianity had been invented?

 

The religion changes all the time. It was used to both justify and condemn slavery. It was used to burn and hang suspected "witches", but Christians don't do that anymore because, well, they interpret the Bible in line with their own newly changed morals.

 

Here's a moral the Bible states that Christians, even very conservative ones, totally ignore:

 

"Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

 

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

 

Look up that verse on Bible Gateway and see it in other translations. There's no justifying that. If it's not relevant and the entire Bible is supposed to be God's word, then none of it is relevant. Either that, or it's impossible to tell what's meant to be taken literally and what's meant to be figurative. If that's the case, then how would you know Jesus's death and resurrection is meant to be taken literally?

 

I challenge you to come up with answers to these questions. If you do have good answers then maybe you are right. If all you have is "well, I know for a fact that I'm right, so good luck and I hope you don't go to hell. I mean, consider what would happen if you're wrong!" then that's just an appeal to fear rather than actual argument, and proves nothing.

 

So, what is your answer?

[Guest Justyna]

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening). I am just simply stating my journey and what happened to me. Of course I have stuck around because I would like to keep reading, learning, and possibly influence others if that is the case...but believe me I am not about to get into some intellectual, theoretical argument with anyone. Its not my style to be honest with you. I dont think that logic convinces anyone to re-convert. Even if I was to engage and provide reasons as to why Jesus is real, there will always be someone that disagrees with me. I think we do not change our hearts through logic. Jesus wants our hearts more than anything.

 

I think it is strange because if a Christian comes in here and is very conservative and follows all the laws and does things right, then people jump down their back and call them fundamentalist. If a Christian is open-minded and accepting, then people on this board will call them not real Christians who do not follow the Bible. You cant win. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore. Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

 

Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in Jesus because they believe His ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either. A lot of people here are angry (not all, but some). I can understand that. I can see from the way people attacked me in this thread that they are angry.

 

Although I have several degrees and I would like to identify myself as an intelligent person, I do not claim to know everything. My relationship with Christ is based on faith..not logic. I have trust in Him and His Word. I believe He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Its as simple as that. A child-like faith. Perhaps I am dumb by wordly standards, but I believe I am not. I believe in Him. The Bible says that in these last days Christians will be deceived and will go after other concepts/theories/gospels. That is what is happening on this messageboard. It is sad to see.

[Realist]

I have read everyone's comments. I was not able to comment before because I was busy. I guess it is what it is. I just shared my story, if it helps someone, then great. If not, then I can say I genuinely tried. I know there are a lot of theories out there, a lot of science, and a lot of new information. They are all great and good to know but they are not going to save you. They all lead to dead ends. I do know that for a fact now. I guess that is all I wanted to say at this point.

 

.... I think you need reminding of one of your earlier posts!

 

Never Been Taught To Think For Myself Where to start? Rate Topic: #1 Justyna

 

Doubter

 

 

Group: Believer Posts: 40 Joined: 09-September 09 Gender:Female Location:USA Any Gods?:Jesus Posted 09 September 2009 - 08:59 PM

 

How sad is this? Im college eduacted, have almost 3 degrees now but becasue I was following Christianity I know nothing about the Sciences, History, and the like. I feel like an f.u.c.king (<---- had to say it)idiot. I mean I was never taught to question anything or have my own ideas and opinions. I am finding out that I am more or a creative person than I gave myself credit. Of the emotions I am having...joy, excitment, happiness, anger is one of them. I suppose this is normal to experience...whose with me here? Advice?

 

... what a great shame ... you leave here and you STILL do not know how to think for yourself! I also believe you TOTALLY when you say:

 

I know nothing about the Sciences, History, and the like.

 

That STILL applies! It just shows, a person does NOT have to be bright to hold degrees!

[Vigile]

I have read everyone's comments. I was not able to comment before because I was busy. I guess it is what it is. I just shared my story, if it helps someone, then great. If not, then I can say I genuinely tried. I know there are a lot of theories out there, a lot of science, and a lot of new information. They are all great and good to know but they are not going to save you. They all lead to dead ends. I do know that for a fact now. I guess that is all I wanted to say at this point.

 

Antlerman, just out of curiosity. Would you consider this poster deluded? If not, why not? She seems pretty deluded to me. If not delusion, it's a pretty good example of a deeply ignorant individual.

[Guest Justyna]

Realist--

 

I did say those things...but I was wrong (hence the name of this thread). I really dont think that even if I learned the Sciences or History for that matter that it would help me. Those things are not going to save me and God has brought me back to Him again. They are good things to know, but they are not the answer to lives questions. Jesus is.

 

What is your point by reposting what I wrote a year ago? I already said a million times that I changed..(hence why I titled this thread the way I did). All the knowledge that we gain in this world will pass away and only Gods Truth will stand in the end. So I no longer regret not studying science and history. I studied Psychology and Business. I wish I studied Christian Studies.

 

The fact that you repost my old posts from a year ago proves nothing. It just proves that I was in the process of deconverting then came back to God. Now I see that nothing I could gain in this world (science or history) compares to the knowledge of Christ. I really do believe that now. I am a changed person.

[Realist]

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening). I am just simply stating my journey and what happened to me. Of course I have stuck around because I would like to keep reading, learning, and possibly influence others if that is the case...but believe me I am not about to get into some intellectual, theoretical argument with anyone. Its not my style to be honest with you. I dont think that logic convinces anyone to re-convert. Even if I was to engage and provide reasons as to why Jesus is real, there will always be someone that disagrees with me. I think we do not change our hearts through logic. Jesus wants our hearts more than anything.

 

I think it is strange because if a Christian comes in here and is very conservative and follows all the laws and does things right, then people jump down their back and call them fundamentalist. If a Christian is open-minded and accepting, then people on this board will call them not real Christians who do not follow the Bible. You cant win. You all have pretty much made up your minds that you do not want to believe in Him anymore. Thats fine. I see a few people on the cusp who are not certain whether they want to give up on Him or not. I was sort of hoping to target these individuals (but again I am not going to go out of my way. I am just going to share my life).

 

Also what I find strange is that people here do not believe in Jesus because they believe His ways are not true but they have not come to some alternative truth either. A lot of people here are angry (not all, but some). I can understand that. I can see from the way people attacked me in this thread that they are angry.

 

Although I have several degrees and I would like to identify myself as an intelligent person, I do not claim to know everything. My relationship with Christ is based on faith..not logic. I have trust in Him and His Word. I believe He loves me and would never do anything to harm me. Its as simple as that. A child-like faith. Perhaps I am dumb by wordly standards, but I believe I am not. I believe in Him. The Bible says that in these last days Christians will be deceived and will go after other concepts/theories/gospels. That is what is happening on this messageboard. It is sad to see.

 

... tell me?? Why DO you have such a big problem with speaking the truth? Your guilt is now SO obvious in that every few posts you state something like this:

 

Well my answer is that I am not really trying to re-convert anyone on this site (like I stated in my opening).

 

You WELL know the reason you keep doing that ... it is called GUILT! You LIE about your reasons in posting this ... then guilt takes over! It is YOUR god you will have to answer for your problems in this area!

 

Get real woman ... you come into the "LION's DEN" and make the statements you have! Even YOU know you were hoping to convince someone on the way out! FFS stop lying!!!

[Guest Justyna]

Realist--

 

I have not lied on this messageboard once. I have been completely honest. I shared my story because I was once deconverting and have since changed my mind. I am not arguing with anyone and I did not come with a list of arguments to try to change your mind. Even one poster said it was strange that I did not reply with rebuttals to this thread. They were stunned that I was simply sharing my story and nothing more. You are trying to make me a liar and actually I am not. I was restating that I am here not to re-convert others because you accused me of doing that earlier. I was just emphasizing once again that I am not. You can believe what you want, but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you. You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him, so I can understand where your mindset comes from. I hope you find the Truth. I sincerely hope you do

[Guest Valk0010]

Realist--

 

I have not lied on this messageboard once. I have been completely honest. I shared my story because I was once deconverting and have since changed my mind. I am not arguing with anyone and I did not come with a list of arguments to try to change your mind. Even one poster said it was strange that I did not reply with rebuttals to this thread. They were stunned that I was simply sharing my story and nothing more. You are trying to make me a liar and actually I am not. I was restating that I am here not to re-convert others because you accused me of doing that earlier. I was just emphasizing once again that I am not. You can believe what you want, but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you. You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him, so I can understand where your mindset comes from. I hope you find the Truth. I sincerely hope you do

Then why are you here, just say your peace and leave then, if your just here to tell your tale. You found your peace. You said you believe by faith, not by logic right. Then why do you bother here then.

[Guest Justyna]

Why are any of us here? I guess it is a mystery. Maybe I have a purpose on the board, a place here, and then again maybe I do not. One of the reasons I am here is that people are responding to this thread and asking me questions. They seem somewhat interested, so I am answering the questions as best as I can.

[Guest Valk0010]

Why are any of us here? I guess it is a mystery. Maybe I have a purpose on the board, a place here, and then again maybe I do not. One of the reasons I am here is that people are responding to this thread and asking me questions. They seem somewhat interested, so I am answering the questions as best as I can.

You said, you believe by faith, then what do you think of apologetics?

[Guest Justyna]

Well I never really looked too deeply into apologetics to be honest with you. I know that apologetics are used to try to defend a position through the systematic use of reason. That is fine and all, and I see nothing wrong with people who do this, but I think it comes down to faith. I think there are things in the Bible that are supernatural and defy reason and logic..they are supernatural (for instance Jesus being born of a virgin). So in that respect I think a lot of people have a lot of problems with the Bible and Jesus because they want to know everything and prove everything, and that will never be done. Not untill He comes back and reveals everything to us once and for all.

 

Ive always had a real child-like faith. Some call it a gift. I struggled a year ago with my faith but have found my way back. I personally do not need to know everything in order to believe in Jesus. I dont have to understand everything..somethings are a mystery to me but I do know that blessed ar those that believe but do not see. I also think that somethings are not for us to know and understand. God is very mysterious and we will never know everything about Him.

 

I think its fine to study apologetics, but I personally dont need it. I try to read up on stuff thats about it.