Im A Christian Again

[Mr. Neil]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life.

I didn't fall away from Christ. I never felt constrained by the Christian lifestyle. I just never believed the whole sin and salvation doctrine in the first place.

 

What about atheists like me who think that faith in Jesus is every bit as nonsensical as faith in Hercules?

 

What do you say to the people who want so badly for their to a savior like Jesus to deliver them to the afterlife but have come to the honest conclusion that no afterlife awaits them? What do you say to the person who WANTS those "constraints" but is convinced that the religion is false?

 

 

So, the author of this topic went back to church because he had a yearning for Jesus, eh? If I believe in something that isn't real, does that make it real?

 

When reality tells you that people don't come back from the dead, what does this inform you about your faith? What is your response? God can do it?

 

Of course. God can do anything. That's a pretty convenient cork you can slap into any hole you may have in your reasoning.

[centauri]

...You can believe what you want, but you seem to be paranoid about liars and that the whole world is lying to you.

Yet you claimed earlier that you were hoping to target people that were on the fence.

That's a form of trolling for converts.

It certainly seems you were hoping to stir the pot by posting your conversion story, and use that as a launching pad to make statements like this:

 

You are actually living a lie right now by not following Him, so I can understand where your mindset comes from. I hope you find the Truth. I sincerely hope you do

Naturally, anyone that doesn't follow your version of God is living a lie.

You deem yourself qualified to define "truth" and reality to others, having provided not a shred of evidence that your version of God exists or needs to be followed.

You seem fond of making assertions, magically thinking that they're valid for others based on your personal whims and experiences.

You state your theological opinions as being absolute facts while at the same time you pretend to be humble and casual.

That's the flaw in your preaching technique and many people here can see through the facade.

[Seeking]

I'm also a Christian but with some big doubts, and I can relate to those who fall away from trust in the Lord Jesus because they feel constrained by the Christian lifestyle and church life. And so I can't agree with some of you who seem to think that the only reason people 'deconvert' is because of the supposed obvious logic of the atheist's position.

 

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

Here's how it worked for me:

 

As a Christian:

• Happily married
  
• Never stole anything
  
• Never smoked
  
• Never cursed
  
• Never got drunk
  
• Never had pre- or extra-marital sex
  

As an Atheist:

• Happily married
  
• Never stole anything
  
• Never smoked
  
• Never cursed
  
• Never got drunk
  
• Never had pre- or extra-marital sex
  

Yep, that life of sin was sure a big, shiny temptation! (I grew up in a very conservative Christian home, by the way.)

 

Seriously, the reason I am no longer a Christian is that I could no longer force myself to believe something that was so obviously NOT true. Logic, reason, knowledge, and intellectual honesty were key for me.

[agnosticator]

Good for you. Do what you want. I believe people should follow any path they want. All different paths to the same destination.

 

Here is the destination: http://whathappensafteridie.com/

 

lamo

At first I thought my web connection screwed up again...then it dawned on me!!!

[Yalta]

Well, it looks like that Christian "sleeper cell" Justyna is gone. I imagine that her plan was something like this:

 

1) Post on exChristian and claim she's doubting Christianity.

2) Return once in a while and post more "doubts".

3) Return much later and say she returned to Christianity. Attempt to convert us by using the generic Christian arguments she'd been taught.

 

I can't imagine any other explanation for her behavior. Pascal's Wager, attempts at fear, telling us that the worst punishments for people in hell are reserved for former Christians, telling us "I'm not here to reconvert you" and then trying to do just that, and the other BS tactics Christians pull - I don't think she was even a "backsliding" Christian, but just a standard Christian who thought that by pretending to be one of us and then saying she returned to her original religion, that we'd believe her, think "WOW!! An exChristian returns to Christianity? She might have a point!" and rejoin her.

 

I mean, heck, look at her generic message. Let's quote here:

 

I wanted to be free from everything, I wanted to think of myself, I wanted to live the way I saw it fit. Well I did. I really didnt go off the rails or anything, but I stopped going to church for a while, stopped reading the Word and just did what I wanted. I used bad words, I saw bad movies, I said what I wanted and did not aplogize. It wasa all good in the beginning. I was determined to "break-free." But after a while I felt empty, I felt like my life had no meaning, and I longed for God again. I gave it a long time. I tried to be in a relationship, I tried to focus on my studies, I tried to go out and socialize and it all didnt do anything for me. I was wondering, all over the place. I wasted my time and resources. I was in want of something deeper, and I felt weary from searching all the day.

 

She tries to claim "I used to be one of you!" status by saying that she used to curse, see "bad movies", do what she wanted and "not apologize". She said she wanted to "break free" from Christianity. Nearly all of us here broke free by no longer believing it was true, not rebelling against God! We're exChristians because we literally came to the conclusion that Christianity was not true. If you hate God, then you believe in God. If you don't believe in God, then the only thing to break free from is the social pressure to pretend that you do.

 

Had she actually read our posts, our deconversion testimonials, and used the site for the length of time that she had an account here, the following would have happened:

 

1) She'd see our rebuttals to the types of arguments she used. After all, many of the exact same arguments came out of our own mouths when we were Christians.

2) She'd see that the reason we don't believe has nothing to do with choosing to give God the finger, and everything to do with, well, literally **not believing**. i.e. coming to the conclusion that it wasn't true, no matter how painful it was for many of us to realize that.

 

As a result, she, if nothing else, would have an easier time pretending to be one of us. But her half-assed attempt shows a lack of knowledge, and as such, a lack of studying to get that knowledge. The type of intellectual dishonesty and laziness that many of us encounter with Christians of the strongly-believing nature.

[Antlerman]

I have read everyone's comments. I was not able to comment before because I was busy. I guess it is what it is. I just shared my story, if it helps someone, then great. If not, then I can say I genuinely tried. I know there are a lot of theories out there, a lot of science, and a lot of new information. They are all great and good to know but they are not going to save you. They all lead to dead ends. I do know that for a fact now. I guess that is all I wanted to say at this point.

 

Antlerman, just out of curiosity. Would you consider this poster deluded? If not, why not? She seems pretty deluded to me. If not delusion, it's a pretty good example of a deeply ignorant individual.

You know I love Vig...

 

I wouldn't call being unable to adequately differentiate on a rational level highly complex aspects of all that goes into who were are as human beings, then making an emotion-driven decision to address one aspect of their life (a social/existential need), then taking shortcuts through logic and reason to offer a form of rational justification to others as to not appear divorced from all reason (especially in a society that values scientific thought as highly as ours does!), I wouldn't call that necessarily delusional. I would call it adopting an incomplete picture worldview, favoring one aspect of our identity over another aspect of their life that isn't about reason and rationality, due to an lack of means socially, culturally, philosophically, and spiritually to integrate them into a fuller picture.

 

What you hear, and I agree with, are illogical rationalities offered to supports for this. But I wouldn't call a decision to embrace the existential aspects of one's nature an irrational, or delusional choice - in and of itself. We all live in denial to one degree or another whether we care to accept that or not as we pat ourselves on the back for being rational. To her, or to those who embrace the 'religious' aspects of their lives (in whatever form that takes), to hear those who don't recognize or value or build that part of themselves, or actively reject and deny that, to them that is itself seen as being delusion or living in denial to something real that they experience in themselves. The world as you see it is reality to you, just as it is to them. To see those who don't face reality - what we call reality for ourselves because it is our reality, they appear as delusional. Just as you do to others who see reality in a different context. But are either of you, really?

 

The difficulty is that giving expression to those things does not follow the languages of the empirical sciences. They are metaphoric, symbolic, utilizing forms of things from the external world and imbuing them with an internal, existential qualities that communicate beyond reason. That humans respond to that aspect of themselves, is not delusional, irrational, or even illogical - but human. The problem is, and where what you are hearing Justyn and many others like her do, is she is unable to bring that aspect of herself, that desire for spiritual meaning and fulfillment into a rational worldspace. These symbols of religious faith are being forced to compete with an age of reason, and the become conflated with scientific facts. And to defend them as such is what is seen as 'delusion', or 'denying reality'. But is it really?

 

And that's my point. Being in error, being confused about the nature of symbols, having the inability to differentiate the meaning from the symbol, enough to allow the symbol to be a 'pointer', and not the thing itself is not being "delusional". It's simply, developmentally, unable to differentiate. That they embrace a "spiritual" focus, to the materialist would seem 'delusional', but it can very easily be countered that to deny that nature in oneself is also delusional - not face that reality.

 

So exercising irrational uses of logic and reason to support the embrace of a spiritual approach to life, or to be unable to differentiate symbolic uses of language with the internal realities they speak to, is really to me more a matter of immaturity. Not delusion. In much the way any of us who haven't developed the means to integrate something important into our lives when confronted with a higher-level challenge, may in fact respond irrationally driven by emotional defenses, does not qualify as delusional. Immature, yet. But not delusion. Sorry Mr. Dawkins.

[dagnarus]

I did a search of her post history, before starting up this thread she had in fact posted only about 15 posts in total over a 4 day period during September of last year (i.e she had only actually been active on this site for a 4 day period), before suddenly deciding to come back to this site to start this thread. In those posts she never really goes into her specific problems with Christianity beyond her wanting to do her own thing, and the oh so titillating fact that she thinks she might be bi-sexual.

 

So yeah, I'm picking she's a Christian who decided to come in for 4 days last year and have a fake deconversion. Then decided to come back here after a year of silence with here fake reconversion story. If she has in fact been active in the chatroom could somebody point this out.

[Guest Justyna]

Well I spoke with my own words and so perhaps it is best that I speak with Jesus' words instead now. Maybe that will be best. It seems that everything fell on deaf ears. *shrug*

 

Mark 4:9

And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

 

Most of you say that you cant believe again because you are unable to anymore. I do not agree with that statement. You do not believe because you do not want to. You let the world and all its lies into your hearts and into your heads and so it has complicated things. But Jesus can bring anyone back. All is not lost. You try to reason and figure it out, and try to develop new theories and concepts and they all lead to nothing in the end. Just fruitless searches. You want to understand everything, know everything as though we as humans are worthy to know such mysteries and great things... while all along your hearts are hard and your spirits are not open. So even if Jesus spoke directly to you, you would not listen. So why should He even waste His breath if you will not let Him in and surrender to Him and worship Him with all your might? He will not be mocked.

 

I guess I will just quietly leave on this note.

 

Matthew 10:14-15

And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

[Guest Justyna]

Crazy Donna,

 

I did want to respond to your post because I know that you took a long time to write it and you want some kind of response from me.

 

Honestly I do not know what happens in those cases. I mean I am not going to pretend like I know everything and know the inner thoughts of God and what He will do and why He will do it. I always thought that children do not go to hell because they do not know sin. Most dont read bibles so how would they know not to sin? So in your little scenario it would be up to God Himself on whether "Tim" went to hell or not. I certainly wont make that call (oh and how glad I am that I do not have to weigh everything and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell). Only God Himself can do that because He knows the real truth and our inner most beings as well as our hidden motives. I know you mighT be wondering just who is considered a child? Is a 9 year old considered a child and therefore does not know right from wrong...but a ten year old is considered old enough to know better? I really dont know. The Bible does not say anything about that, that I know of.

 

I do agree that God knew what would happen to man kind and that He knew that Adam and Eve would sin and as a result introduce sin into this world. But He also made a way out for us humans. He sent Jesus Christ His One and only Begotten Son to pay the price for our sins so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Why did He chose to do it that way? I dont know. I mean you are right in the sense that He should have never designed humans to have free will. Adam and Eve freely sinned against God and brought distruction into their own lives (kind of like many of us do, and then we blame God saying it is His fault). Well its not His fault. Of course He knew what would happen, so that is why He provided us with a wonderful answer...and that answer came in the form of Jesus Christ the Messiah. I dont know why He wanted it that way....but He did. He wantd it that way..and guess what? He is God so He made the executive decison to do that. When we ourselves oneday create a Universe, The Heavens, and Hell, then we will oneday be able to call the shots like He does now (which will never happen).Its that simple really. We shouldnt ask why did He do it that way? We should thank Him that He made a way out. He could have just created us and killed us all! But He is not going to do that. He promised that if we believe in His Son we will be saved and have eternal life. Kind of a strange thought right now....we did not make ourselves. He made us, so He can make all the rules up and do with us as He sees fit. That is why the Bible teaches us to fear Him alone, for He alone is God. Man can do nothing to us. It is God we ultimately answer to and have to give an account of our lives. And guess what folks? When that day comes, you will not have all your buddies from ex-christian messageboard to help you explain why you did not believe in His Son even though you had sooooooooo many opportunities and soooo many warnings and at one point knew the truth but chose to deliberately turn from it. Nope. It will just be you and the Creator of the Universe there. And you will not be able to make up a good excuse and you will not be able to fool Him or make up some good lie. I hope you all come prepared with all your theories and concepts you thought of and gained along the way. Hes not going to buy them though. Hes going to ask you why you didnt follow Him and His ways that are written plainly in His Word. I hope you have a good answer.

 

On a lighter note....He gave humans free will. He wants us to love Him and to be in fellowship with Him every day forever! He did not create puppets. We choose to love Him when we see His awesome love for us, and that pleases Him. He is not evil, He is not mean, He is not any of the things you said He is. He is a God of War though...actually He has been showing me that He is the God of War. That is kind of unexpected because I never saw Him that way.

 

Basically to sum it all up..HE IS GOD AND HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS. HE ANSWERS TO NO ONE AND NO ONE TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO. ALL POWER BELONGS TO HIM.

[RankStranger]

He will not be mocked.

 

Oh yes he will. You just hang around here and you'll see.

[dagnarus]

Well I spoke with my own words and so perhaps it is best that I speak with Jesus' words instead now. Maybe that will be best. It seems that everything fell on deaf ears. *shrug*

 

Mark 4:9

And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

 

Most of you say that you cant believe again because you are unable to anymore. I do not agree with that statement. You do not believe because you do not want to. You let the world and all its lies into your hearts and into your heads and so it has complicated things. But Jesus can bring anyone back. All is not lost. You try to reason and figure it out, and try to develop new theories and concepts and they all lead to nothing in the end. Just fruitless searches. You want to understand everything, know everything as though we as humans are worthy to know such mysteries and great things... while all along your hearts are hard and your spirits are not open. So even if Jesus spoke directly to you, you would not listen. So why should He even waste His breath if you will not let Him in and surrender to Him and worship Him with all your might? He will not be mocked.

 

I guess I will just quietly leave on this note.

 

Matthew 10:14-15

And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

 

Revelation 22:15(AQ)Outside are the (AR)dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

 

Matthew 7:22"(S)Many will say to Me on (T)that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

 

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; (U)DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

See you in hell.

[Realist]

I guess I will just quietly leave on this note.

 

... and lesson for you on the way out! Learn to tell the truth when you have ulterior motives!

[Crazy Donna]

Crazy Donna,

 

I did want to respond to your post because I know that you took a long time to write it and you want some kind of response from me.

 

Honestly I do not know what happens in those cases. I mean I am not going to pretend like I know everything and know the inner thoughts of God and what He will do and why He will do it. I always thought that children do not go to hell because they do not know sin. Most dont read bibles so how would they know not to sin? So in your little scenario it would be up to God Himself on whether "Tim" went to hell or not. I certainly wont make that call (oh and how glad I am that I do not have to weigh everything and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell). Only God Himself can do that because He knows the real truth and our inner most beings as well as our hidden motives. I know you mighT be wondering just who is considered a child? Is a 9 year old considered a child and therefore does not know right from wrong...but a ten year old is considered old enough to know better? I really dont know. The Bible does not say anything about that, that I know of.

 

I do agree that God knew what would happen to man kind and that He knew that Adam and Eve would sin and as a result introduce sin into this world. But He also made a way out for us humans. He sent Jesus Christ His One and only Begotten Son to pay the price for our sins so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Why did He chose to do it that way? I dont know. I mean you are right in the sense that He should have never designed humans to have free will. Adam and Eve freely sinned against God and brought distruction into their own lives (kind of like many of us do, and then we blame God saying it is His fault). Well its not His fault. Of course He knew what would happen, so that is why He provided us with a wonderful answer...and that answer came in the form of Jesus Christ the Messiah. I dont know why He wanted it that way....but He did. He wantd it that way..and guess what? He is God so He made the executive decison to do that. When we ourselves oneday create a Universe, The Heavens, and Hell, then we will oneday be able to call the shots like He does now (which will never happen).Its that simple really. We shouldnt ask why did He do it that way? We should thank Him that He made a way out. He could have just created us and killed us all! But He is not going to do that. He promised that if we believe in His Son we will be saved and have eternal life. Kind of a strange thought right now....we did not make ourselves. He made us, so He can make all the rules up and do with us as He sees fit. That is why the Bible teaches us to fear Him alone, for He alone is God. Man can do nothing to us. It is God we ultimately answer to and have to give an account of our lives.

 

He gave humans free will. He wants us to love Him and to be in fellowship with Him every day forever! He did not create puppets. We choose to love Him when we see His awesome love for us, and that pleases Him. He is not evil, He is not mean, He is not any of the things you said He is. He is a God of War though...actually He has been showing me that He is the God of War. That is kind of unexpected because I never saw Him that way.

 

Basically to sum it all up..HE IS GOD AND HE CAN DO WHAT HE WANTS. HE ANSWERS TO NO ONE AND NO ONE TELLS HIM WHAT TO DO. ALL POWER BELONGS TO HIM.

Please don't shout at me with all caps. I used to be a christian, I know what the party line is.

 

You evaded my question. You are unable to answer the question, because there is no answer, other than that your god does not care for humanity, or he doesn't exist. You cannot reconcile your idea of a loving god with the idea that god would send a person to hell for eternity for a minor indiscretion. So you evaded it by saying you can't know the mind of god. This is a cop out. What you are actually saying is "I don't want to admit that the only options are that god is evil and hates humanity, or he doesn't exist, so I'll just say that his ways are unknowable, and get myself off the hook."

 

By doing this, you are agreeing that god torturing someone for an eternity is a right and just action. You're accepting it as morally right, when it is obviously not. You can't answer my question, which is exactly what I expected. Because you're too chicken shit scared to admit that I could be right. This 'I don't know the mind of god' bullshit is exactly that. Bullshit. How can you be a christian and supposedly have a relationship with god, and yet plead ignorance of his nature? You can't answer my question because it would mean that you had to consider the possibility that I might be right, and that your god is either a humanity hating monster, or doesn't exist. They are the only plausible explanations for his supposed behaviour.

 

"The wages of sin is death". You're familiar with that line from the bible? It means that everyone who sins burns. Your god has already made up his mind, and you know it. People who sin go to hell. There is no 'godly discretion' as to whether they might not go or not. If they sin, they burn. If you don't believe this fundamental idea, you cannot be a christian.

 

The sad thing is, we're not really talking about whether Tim in my scenario committed a sin or not, because he didn't have to commit a sin. Original sin taints him, according to christian dogma. So even if his only fault was that he wasn't a christian, he would still burn, regardless of his behaviour. What kind of a god creates someone whom they know will not believe, for the express purpose of torturing them? Either your god is sick, or he doesn't exist.

 

You wrote "I do agree that God knew what would happen to man kind and that He knew that Adam and Eve would sin and as a result introduce sin into this world. But He also made a way out for us humans. He sent Jesus Christ His One and only Begotten Son to pay the price for our sins so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Why did He chose to do it that way? I dont know."

 

What kind of a price did jesus pay? He died for three days and went to hell, according to xtian doctrine. But according to xtian doctrine, transgressors go to hell for ETERNITY. Do you see the difference? What kind of similarity is that? Some payment. jesus did not experience the full torture of hell for an eternity. He only spent a few days there. And yet somehow that is meant to make his suffering equal to the suffering that your god supposedly metes out to his victims?

 

You again resort to 'I don't know.' You admit that your god knew that they would sin, and that he created them anyway, knowing what punishment laid in store for them. How do you sleep knowing that? That is sick! How does a loving god do that?

 

However, I think the most sickeningly insulting thing that you have ever written is that you do not accept our collective testimonies that we do not believe because we do not want to. That is insulting. We have all repeatedly told you that our deconversion experience is NOT a choice. We lost our faith unwillingly. We did not choose to lose it. You dismiss that as lies. You call everyone on this forum a liar so that you can sleep at night without having to think about the fact that either your god doesn't exist (and we are right in our unbelief) or that your god simply doesn't want a relationship with us.

 

You are a horrible human being, you know that? Just for having the gall to say that. I thought I could respect you, but that insulting dismissal of our collective traumas as "Oh, you simply CHOSE not to believe," reveals your true nature. Nobody who had ever deconverted would say such a thing. Nobody with any empathy for another human being would say such a thing, and dismiss their suffering as a childish temper tantrum with god. I sincerely hope you live to eat those words and feel the profound pain we have experienced. Maybe then we could forgive you. Though I strongly doubt it.

[Guest Justyna]

This really is not going to help much, yet nevertheless I feel the urge to share it because even though those that reply dont seem to get it, perphas someone who is reading this but does not post will understand.

 

When Jesus came the first time, He was a meek carpenter who had no earthly position and was very submissive and compassioante and willing to help. Make no mistake, when He comes back again the second time, He is not coming back the same way. He is coming back with power and vengence and He will make everything right. He will crush His enemies and He will administer justice to the weak, the poor, the oppressed and the orphaned. Basically it is not going to be anymore "Mr. Nice Guy." So try to keep that in mind.

 

Also my friend who I have known for 10+ years told me before that she believes Jesus is coming back in our lifetime. We are both 28 by the way. Now she is prophetic and has NEVER EVER been wrong when she heard from God. I guess it is somewhat strange because the Bible says that no one knows the hour when He is coming back, only the Father knows. But the whole earth is groaning and waiting and anticipating. Many prophecies have been fufulled in the Bible. I believe her when she said it will be in our lifetime. So perhaps 70 years or so..give or take. Please I am not saying that I KNOW KNOW, because that would make me a heretic, no one knows for certain only God. But my friend is an awesome Christian and is pretty close to God. She might be right. The reason I believe her is because she is not saying that on such and such date at such and such time Jesus is coming back. She said in our lifetime. Its possible.

[Vigile]

 

I guess I will just quietly leave on this note.

 

Matthew 10:14-15

And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. 15 Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

 

Oh cool, now your damning us.

 

Here's more words from the Gospel of Hank:

 

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

 

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

 

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."

 

Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"

 

John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the shit out of you."

 

Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

 

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."

 

Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."

 

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"

 

Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."

 

John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."

 

Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"

 

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."

 

Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"

 

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

 

Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"

 

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the shit out of you."

 

Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"

 

John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

 

Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

 

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

 

Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

 

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

 

Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"

 

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

 

Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

 

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the shit out of you."

 

Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."

 

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

 

Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"

 

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."

 

Me: "Who's Karl?"

 

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

 

Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"

 

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."

[OnceConvinced]

I can certainly relate to wanting to break out and swear with others (not at people but in other ways), or have a cigarette, or have sex with someone to whom you are not married. If you have grown up in a conservative and morally restrictive environment then the tempation for this is enormous.

Really the whole idea of leaving Christianity to sin is quite absurd. If you want to sin the best thing is to remain a Christian, where you have the blood of Jesus to fall back on. Automatic forgiveness, just as long as you're genuinely sorry. It makes no sense to become an ex-Christian just to sin. It certainly had nothing to do with my falling from the faith. It was a terrible heartbreaking revelation that I was living in a delusion.

[dagnarus]

I guess I will just quietly leave on this note.

 

... and lesson for you on the way out! Learn to tell the truth when you have ulterior motives!

 

Don't be silly realist. She had to wait a year to set up this whole returning sheep ploy, she isn't going to give up on it yet. Just as an aside, just how pathetic do you think Justyna thinks her God is. I mean the fact that she feels the need to use all this lies and subterfuge just to get anyone to believe in him is a tacit admission that he's an impotent screw up. What she's doing is pretty much blasphemy.

[Guest Justyna]

Crazy Donna,

 

It does not matter how I present the message to you, you do not want to accept it. I am not saying I am perfect, but please dont blame me because I am not who you think I should be at this point in my life. I am who I am, and I am trying to be better each day. It does not matter who delivers the message..me or someone else...you automatically will reject it. And I am smart enough to know that you are not rejecting me but Jesus in me. You hate Him with all your might. I dont judge you because I do not know what you have been through. It sounds like it was very painful and my sympathies go out to you. I hope oneday your heart can heal and you can start a new.

 

I think you have the wrong image of God. Dont forget that we do have a third party here..his name is Satan and he is constatnly working to destroy the image of God and make Him out to be the bad one even though it is Satan we should be hating and blaming. Right now most of you are in bondage and tied up. You are unable to see that God is loving, that He does want to save you and that He cares for you. Satan is the ruler of this world, and he has done a great job of twisting the Truth up. He has you hating Jesus instead of hating satan himself. I think that it is Satans fault, but you all chose to follow satan and after this world and all it has to offer with its theories and concepts and lies. You all chose that, no one forced you. Time to be accountable for your actions, and stop saying that you could not believe anymore. You each made decisions that went against God and stopped praying to God, stopped reading His Word and stopped your relationshps with God. Of course satan had a part in this, but you did not resist him...you fell for his trap! And here you all are. Now God wants to bring you all back to Him. He really does. I do feel His love.

 

As far as Jesus not paying the price. First of all He didnt have to come down to earth and live a sinless life. He was tempted like we all are. He didnt have to suffer on the cross, but He did anyway. He went to hell and came back. But He took all the worlds sin on Himself. He was perfect and blameless and the apple of His Father's Eye. Can you imagine the tourment He must have felt to have all the world's sin on Him..the One who knew no sin. He suffered the most painful death? Have you ever been crucified and nailed to a tree? And the documentaries that we see of Him do not do justice to the amount of tourture He endured. They would not be able to show it on TV. You do not know what kind of pain He endured and how awful it was. He was soooooo Holy and Pure yet here He was being accused of all these things He never did. Can you image that? I cant.

[Michael]

This really is not going to help much, yet nevertheless I feel the urge to share it because even though those that reply dont seem to get it, perphas someone who is reading this but does not post will understand.

 

When Jesus came the first time, He was a meek carpenter who had no earthly position and was very submissive and compassioante and willing to help. Make no mistake, when He comes back again the second time, He is not coming back the same way. He is coming back with power and vengence and He will make everything right. He will crush His enemies and He will administer justice to the weak, the poor, the oppressed and the orphaned. Basically it is not going to be anymore "Mr. Nice Guy." So try to keep that in mind.

 

Also my friend who I have known for 10+ years told me before that she believes Jesus is coming back in our lifetime. We are both 28 by the way. Now she is prophetic and has NEVER EVER been wrong when she heard from God. I guess it is somewhat strange because the Bible says that no one knows the hour when He is coming back, only the Father knows. But the whole earth is groaning and waiting and anticipating. Many prophecies have been fufulled in the Bible. I believe her when she said it will be in our lifetime. So perhaps 70 years or so..give or take. Please I am not saying that I KNOW KNOW, because that would make me a heretic, no one knows for certain only God. But my friend is an awesome Christian and is pretty close to God. She might be right. The reason I believe her is because she is not saying that on such and such date at such and such time Jesus is coming back. She said in our lifetime. Its possible.

 

Hi Justyna,

 

you are talking about a Jesus who will come back with a sword, vengence, fire and with a holy wrath. It is strange, that many xians I know/knew enjoy this idea. They are looking forward to the day. They want to see "crushed" enemies. My problem is: Who is the "enemy"? Am I and my unbaptized children his enemies? Are muslims his enemies? Who are this "enemies" you are talking about? Your neighbour? Do you enjoy the idea of "crushed" people? Your jesus has a big heart for the weak, the poor and the oppressed. The jesus I know, just do not care about them. Why does he has to wait thousands of years to bring justice? Billions of people starved to death in the last 2000 years, billions got killed. Why is he still waiting to bring justice?

 

You know that people believed again and again that jesus would come back during their lifetime. The first xians believed it and every new generation believed it. He never came. The whole earth is groaning and it did so the last 2000 years. We had terrible wars in the last centuries, we had terrible diseases who killed millions and so on. Our time is cruel, but it always was.

 

And yes, your friend might be right. If not, she is part of this homepage (http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm).

 

I still do not get the point of your post. What do you want me to understand? That your interpretation of the revelation is, that jesus will come back and destroy all of his enemies? Again, who are his enemies? Should I be afraid and become a xian or should I understand that you are afraid of the day when jesus comes back? You should be looking forward to this great day, when jesus in all of his glory comes back to earth.

[OnceConvinced]

OK, this time Justnya you have gone to far. I don't normally lose my cool with deluded idiotic religious nutters, but you've pushed all the buttons. So here goes...

 

Well I spoke with my own words and so perhaps it is best that I speak with Jesus' words instead now.

 

Why would you think any of us would take seriously the words of the bible when we have found the bible to be so flawed? There is no evidence to support Jesus said any of those words. They were written down by people who never even met Jesus.

 

Don't be like Prove_17 who has only succeeded in attracting scorn and ridicule for his inability to discuss things like a rational human being.

 

Maybe that will be best. It seems that everything fell on deaf ears. *shrug*

 

Nope, not deaf ears. Just logical minds who are no longer willing to be suckered in by religious bullshit.

 

 

Most of you say that you cant believe again because you are unable to anymore. I do not agree with that statement.

 

Who do you think you are? Our experiences are our experiences. How dare you call us liars to our face, because that's what you're doing. We know what we experienced and we know how we came to be unbelievers. Do not insult us anymore than what you have.

 

 

You do not believe because you do not want to.

 

That's absolute bullshit. Now you are just being condescending and arrogant. I very much wanted ot continue to believe. I spent several years lamenting over not being able to believe. I wanted desperately to believe. So don't you dare try to tell me that I didn't want to believe, becuase that's not true. Get off your high horse and don't be so bloody stupid! You have no clue what it was like for us.

 

You let the world and all its lies into your hearts and into your heads and so it has complicated things.

 

Bullshit! It's you that's letting the lies of religion fill your vacuous head.

 

But Jesus can bring anyone back. All is not lost.

I prayed regularly, I begged God to bring me back to faith for around four years. Didn't work, so don't give me that bullshit.

 

 

. So even if Jesus spoke directly to you, you would not listen.

 

Bullshit. If your Jesus was all he was cracked up to be, we'd be listening.If he's real and can't get through to us then that shows a serious weakness in his behalf.

 

 

You show your true colours now. A pharasticial judgemental attitude. It's quite obvious that you were just a Christian who came to this site pretending to be one of us so that you could then claim to be an Ex-Christian returning to Christianity. You are a liar and a fraud. Jesus, if he existed would be ashamed of you.

[Michael]

 

Have you ever been crucified and nailed to a tree? And the documentaries that we see of Him do not do justice to the amount of tourture He endured. They would not be able to show it on TV. You do not know what kind of pain He endured and how awful it was. He was soooooo Holy and Pure yet here He was being accused of all these things He never did. Can you image that? I cant.

 

Have you ever heard, that people got tortured? REAL people? It is happening today and everywhere on this planet. There are people who let themselves torture and crucify out of fun (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1901095.stm).

 

During the 3rd reich unbelievable cruel things happend to children and REAL human beings. Torture you can not imagine. Some other people got skinned, beaten to death, stoned, raped for years by soldier groups, locked up in cellars for years and raped day by day....and so on. And your jesus had the worst death ever? This is really annoying and an insult to all the suffering people of the last 2000 years.

[OnceConvinced]

 

Also my friend who I have known for 10+ years told me before that she believes Jesus is coming back in our lifetime.

 

I don't think there's any Christian who doesn't believe that. Every generation believes Jesus is returning in there lifetime or not long after and every generation has been completely and utterly wrong. Even Paul believed that Jesus was returning in his life time, but Jesus didn't. So if Paul was wrong, why would anyone believe that they're right and why would anyone take such a suggestion seriously? And all those predictions you believe have been fulfilled in recent times were fulfilled in Paul's day too, which is why he believed Jesus's return was eminent. It's all just wishful thinking on your part. Jesus is not returning because Jesus died 2000 years ago, (if he existed at all). So quit with the crying wolf, Justyna. Is it any wonder we no longer take this BS seriously? If God was realy, he'd completely understand why we are UNABLE to believe it.

[Guest Justyna]

Those people are regular people..they are sinners. I do feel compassion on them and I know that many many people are suffering injustly right now. But Jesus was/is Holy..thats the difference. He spent forever (an infinite amount of time) with God the Father and then He had to be seperated from that and come here so that He could save us! Thats the difference. You obviously have not counted how many people live and have lived and will live on this plant. I believe the count is about 20 billion right now (that is what I dug up, I could be wrong). So can you imagine never knowing pain and sorrow and sin for longer than time ever existed then coming down to earth and taking every single persons sin onto yourself. I dont think it was just physical pain He endured....it was spiritual murder too.

[Guest Justyna]

Well as far as Pauls claim that Jesus was coming soon (and of course He has not come back yet) 2,000+ years is nothing compared to eternity. It really is not. Paul said He was coming soon. Well its been a while and He has not come back yet. True. But what is 2,000 years or 3,000 years compared to eternity? Not a lot. So I am going to venture out and say that, even though I do not know what Paul meant for sure when he made those statements, thats what he was trying to say. Eternity goes on forever and ever and ever..with no end.

[Crazy Donna]

This really is not going to help much, yet nevertheless I feel the urge to share it because even though those that reply dont seem to get it, perphas someone who is reading this but does not post will understand.

 

When Jesus came the first time, He was a meek carpenter who had no earthly position and was very submissive and compassioante and willing to help. Make no mistake, when He comes back again the second time, He is not coming back the same way. He is coming back with power and vengence and He will make everything right. He will crush His enemies and He will administer justice to the weak, the poor, the oppressed and the orphaned. Basically it is not going to be anymore "Mr. Nice Guy." So try to keep that in mind.

 

Also my friend who I have known for 10+ years told me before that she believes Jesus is coming back in our lifetime. We are both 28 by the way. Now she is prophetic and has NEVER EVER been wrong when she heard from God. I guess it is somewhat strange because the Bible says that no one knows the hour when He is coming back, only the Father knows. But the whole earth is groaning and waiting and anticipating. Many prophecies have been fufulled in the Bible. I believe her when she said it will be in our lifetime. So perhaps 70 years or so..give or take. Please I am not saying that I KNOW KNOW, because that would make me a heretic, no one knows for certain only God. But my friend is an awesome Christian and is pretty close to God. She might be right. The reason I believe her is because she is not saying that on such and such date at such and such time Jesus is coming back. She said in our lifetime. Its possible.

 

First of all, you resort to the threat of hell in an attempt to make us repent. You don't understand that we don't actually believe in hell. Hell is meaningless to us. We don't believe it exists, so we have no reason to be afraid of it. So threats of hell won't cause us to repent.

 

Secondly, your friend is always right when she gets prophecies from god? So that means that every time she is wrong, it's not from god? How convenient.

 

And no apology for your horrendous insult. You're a monster.