Im A Christian Again

[OnceConvinced]

I think as far as stirring up trouble and not bearing the Fruit of the Spirit goes, Jesus got angry to the point where He overturned the tables at the temple. He was radical and stirred up a lot of emotions in people.

 

You are not Jesus. And the fact remains that the bible tells us that we will know you are a Christian by the fruits that you show and the love that you show. If you do not show those fruits then you show yourself to be a fraud.

 

 

The Truth is hurtful, and it can be hard to accept (like accpeting the fact that you walked away from God and He never walked away from you).

I most definitely did not walk away from God. I discovered that I had not seen any evidence of God in my life for well over 10 years. I begged and begged for God to touch me with a sense of his presence. I shed many heart felt tears, begging him to strenghten my faith and to help be believe again. No reply. That's how much your supposed God cared about me.

 

Everywhere Jesus went there was chaos and trouble and people who hated Him because He spoke the Truth...He told them to repent and turn from their wicked ways etc. Sinners do not want to hear that.

 

Strawman. Stirring up trouble is also done by jerks. Even assholes and trouble makers are hated. How do we know you aren't just one of them?

Here are some more scriptures you should take into account:

 

Pro 16:7

When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him. (you still want to insist that stirring things up is the right way to go? You really think that's gonna get people listening to you and taking you seriously?)

 

Pro 16:28

A perverse man stirs up dissension, and a gossip separates close friends.

 

Pro 18:6

A fool's lips bring him strife, and his mouth invites a beating.

 

 

 

Colossians 4:5-6 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time. Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

 

Mark 13:5-6

And Jesus, answering them, began to say: “Take heed that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many.

 

Pro 12:8

A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised. (if you were exhibiting any wisdom at all we would be praising you for it. But instead you show wilful ignorance)

 

Pro 16:5

The LORD detests all the proud of heart.Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

 

 

Pro 13:3

He who guards his lips guards his life, but he who speaks rashly will come to ruin.

 

 

James 1:26, "If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight reign on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless."

 

Pro 26:12

Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.

 

 

The only reason I have the right to say what I say is because I can test it against the Holy Scriptures.

You test it based on your perspective and with your mindset. Just like every Christian does. Nobody is able to say what the scriptures truely say, because no one can agree.

 

If a person on here says to me that God left them and that is why they themselves stopped believing I can say to them that they are either liars, misguided, or confused

Or the bible is not God's word and just the words of bronze aged tribesmen. You can insist the bible is God's word all you want, but we here know better.

 

 

because He has said many times "Never will I leave you nor forsake you!"

 

And yet he forsook his own son on the cross. You really think that if he did that to his own son he wouldn't do it to us? And just think too that he's going to have his angels cast the majority of his creation into hell too.

 

So that right there means He is right and whoever says that Jesus left them is wrong. The Bible does not lie.

No one seriously believes that Jesus left them. Get real! Nobody here believes that at all! What they realised is that Jesus was non-existant. There's a big difference. You can't blame something you don't believe in just like I'm sure you don't blame the fairies in your garden for plucking off all the leaves of the trees in Fall and then allowing your lawns to overgrow during the summer

 

The black and white-ness of the Bible makes it real simple to live by.

 

Black and white? That's a laugh. If it really was that simple, then every Christian would agree on everything in the bible. You wouldn't have the thousands of denominations, sects and cults. Sorry, but that's damning evidence that it's not black and white. Even the holy spirit can't seem to bring unity.

 

Jesus said He will never leave you. Jesus is not a liar..so therefore that means He never left. You may not feel Him or see Him, but He is there and He sees everything and knows everything.

And you are quite clearly deluded if you believe that.

 

...............

 

So tell me, Justyn, are you enjoying getting to testify to your Christian friends at the other site about how you are suffering persecution for Christ here on this website?

[OnceConvinced]

Realist--

 

I do not have time to go through every single scripture you posted. So I picked one randomly. Matthew 24:34

 

Of course it is best to read the context as things can be taken out of context. So I am going to write out verses 32-34 for us all to see.

 

The Parable of the Fig Tree

 

32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it[d] is near—at the doors! 34 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

 

Now as you can see the title of this part of the Bible is called "The Parable of the Fig Tree." I actually read the entire chapter and I do know that before this part Jesus is talking to His disciples and trying to answer their many questions about what will happen when the tributation comes the second coming etc etc etc. Here is how I understand this passage. In verse 32 Jesus talks about the stages of a fig tree. He talks about how

1. The branch becomes tender

2. The branch puts forth leaves

 

Then He says in verse 34, "Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all THESE things take place.

 

So the question is, which "THESE THINGS" is He referring to? Well He is referring to 1. The branch of the fig tree getting tender AND 2. The branch putting forth of leaves. When THESE 2 things happen then we will know that summer is near. (Summer of course representing the end times, the second coming, the tribulation etc.) He never lied, EVER as He is incapable of doing so. That generation He was talking to (His disciples that followed Him around while He was on Earth) did see the "The branch becoming tender and the branch putting forth leaves." He never said that that generation is going to see the end times and the Second Coming, He said they would see beginnings of "Summer." And that they did. That generation saw Jesus crucified. That generation saw Him rise from the dead. That generation saw Him ascend into Heaven. That was the beginning..a.k.a the branches becoming tender and putting forth leaves. Since that happened, we know from His own mouth that "Summer" A.K.A The Second Coming, The Tribulation...etc. are near. Well the second coming is in fact near! Again we have been waiting 2,000+ years for it, but again do I have to go over how 2,000 years is nothing compared to eternity? I think not.

 

So Jesus never lied. What He spoke of in the parable did take place and it did take place to that generation. He did not say that that generation WILL in fact see "Summer." He just said that "Summer" will be near when those things take place. And "near" is a relative term compared to eternity. Hope that helped. I am sure I can look up the rest of those scriptures and see the TRUTH and explain how Jesus never lied. I might sometime, but not right now as that would take forever to do.

 

Oh here we go again with more stuff copied and pasted from Justyna's clueless friends on the other site. Are you going to claim this is your own stuff, given to you by the holy spirit?

 

http://forums.christ...5/printable.htm

 

Justyn, I'd recommend you do a google search on Preterism. This is a branch of Christianity where they believe that Jesus did come again in the 1st century AD. They are genuine Christians, that just don't go along with futurist beliefs. They can back it all up with scripture too and will easily debunk the stuff your buddies are saying on the other site. I examined it myself over ten years ago and it was very enlightening indeed. All the stuff you believe is a fulfillment of prophecy now was happening back then in Paul's times.

[OnceConvinced]

 

 

"Belief is not a choice"

 

I will disagree with this because belief IS a choice. We can refuse to believe the world and accept Christ instead. That is a choice. If you do not believe me remember when He said "I lay before you life and death...CHOOSE..Life."

 

It is the accepting Christ part which is the choice, not the belief itself. You already believe before you come to that point of having to make the choice. But first you must believe. You can't very well pray to God and ask him to come into your life if you don't believe in him first. Did you? Of course not! Someone convinced you that Jesus was real and that you had to repent. You already believed before you repented.

 

After all, when you prayed the sinners prayer, you didn't pray it like this:

 

Dear God, I don't actually believe you exist, but I'm praying to you anyway. I don't believe Jesus ever existed either, but I'm going to make believe he does, at least until I believe it. Fake it till you make it, right God? I am a sinner... although I don't actually see what's so bad with my human nature that you supposedly endowed me with, but I'm going to make believe that I'm in need of salvation. I acknowledge that you died on the cross for my sin... even thought I don't believe Jesus actually existed. I accept you as my lord and saviour and really really really really really really really really hope that I'll be able to believe in you for real one day. Amen.

 

I'd love to believe in God. I'd love to believe that he has everything under his control, that he has big plans for me, that he's there to lay all my problems on and that I'll go to Heaven when I die. Who wouldn't want to believe all that? I'd also love to believe that there are wardrobes that lead to magical worlds and that somewhere in the UK there's an amazing chocolate factory, where all sorts of amazing candies are manufactured and it's being run by Oompa Loompas. Oh yeah, I'd love to believe it all, but I'm just absolutely unable to believe any of it.

 

There are things God could do that would easily have me believing in him again, but he doesn't do them, so that's proof enough he doesn't exist. And before you start saying it's not God's policy to prove his existence, then read the OT. He went to a lot of trouble to prove his existence then and even endorsed tests to prove that other Gods (eg Baal) were false. So if it's good enough to test those other Gods, then it's good enough to test the bible God. If he fails the test, then it's only fair to judge him non-existent, just as Elijah judged the Baals as being non-existent due to their lack of action. Anything else is double standards and shows a lack of integrity when it comes the bible God.

 

"Life" of course is referring to Jesus Christ. He has set up life and death before us, and He says to CHOOSE Life (Himself) since He is the Truth the Light, and the Way. We can choose...we must choose. I am CHOOSING at this very moment to be on this messageboard. I can CHOOSE to leave. We have free will. It can be difficult to get a hold of your beliefs and your thoughts after they have been running around doing whatever they want (figuratively of course) but it can be done. That is why is says to "Take every thought captive."

 

None of this has anything to do with belief. It's about choosing to do something based on the fact you already believe.

[Shyone]

You hate Him with all your might.

 

More mindreading. For the record, it is Christianity that I hate with all My might.

I don't hate Yahweh. I'm a little upset with Poseidon, however, for not fulfilling his duty to clean up the seas, but I'll get over it.

 

I'm pretty sure from her writings that Justyna absolutely hates the Great Pumpkin. With all her tiny little might.

[Phanta]

Whenever you care to have a real discussion about your beliefs, if you want someone who is willing to listen and dialog (but expects the same in return), I am that person. But I suspect you won't because this isn't about something good you've found. It's about defending a religion that you're hiding behind. In other words, this isn't God, it's about you.

 

Adversity is awesome evidence of being right "in Jesus". Every fight brings the believer of this premise closer to Jesus. Not-fight, as one would get with you, isn't at all satisfying as it disconfirms the belief.

 

What's missing from the equation is the believer's responsibility for letting the fight in, for growing the conflict it to get a bigger persecution "hit". Fights are welcomed with behavior, placement of energy, and choice focus of attention. These draw in individuals who are also game for a fight. You just aren't useful here, A-man.

 

Phanta

[dagnarus]

Adversity is awesome evidence of being right "in Jesus". Every fight brings the believer of this premise closer to Jesus. Not-fight, as one would get with you, isn't at all satisfying as it disconfirms the belief.

 

What's missing from the equation is the believer's responsibility for letting the fight in, for growing the conflict it to get a bigger persecution "hit". Fights are welcomed with behavior, placement of energy, and choice focus of attention. These draw in individuals who are also game for a fight. You just aren't useful here, A-man.

 

Phanta

 

Thank you for reminding me of this, as annoying as she may be, to engage is ultimately self defeating.

[Mr. Neil]

Well I did look up that scripture today and read the full chapter, and as I suspected it was taken out of context.

 

In Matt 16:28 obviously Jesus cannot be referring to His Second coming because He states in other places that He did not know that timing! So what are the real possibilities of His meaning for "the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".

 

First and most likely, IMO, it is the Transfiguration because it occurs the very next week as recorded in Matt 17. Certainly the Resurrection and Ascension with its attendant 40 days of the glorified Christ on earth is a prime candidate. Finally, Jesus may be referring to the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost or even the rapid spread of the early church following that time. So I believe this a great example where one must use common sense and reason not to jump to conclusions by misinterpreting a single word, such as "coming", and then throw the entire Bible out the window because of one's personal bias against Christianity.

Wow! You speculate wildly and end on an ad hominem. I can play that game, too. I can call you biased for ignoring the plane meaning of the text. You come from the perspective that the Bible must be right, completely canonical, and inerrant, so you determined IN ADVANCE that the person who brought this to your attention MUST be taking it out of context. You come up with a kneejerk rebuttal and ignore the obvious problems with it.

 

Talk about someone throwing out the Bible. You won't even let the Bible say what it's actually saying. The people on this forum are content to read the Bible in the context that was intended by the author, but you won't have that, because it doesn't jibe with what you think the Bible should be.

 

I would argue that the people on this forum have FAR more respect for the Bible than you do.

 

 

As far as my comment about me believing that people here dont want to believe and chose not to..I will never apologize for that because I stand by it.

And you're a coward, because you don't want to face the fact that there are former Christians who agonize over the loss of their religion.

 

Hey, wait. Weren't YOU one of those not too long ago?

 

 

I made a post earlier explaining how in life we have choices..well everyone knows this. Everyone here was a Chrisitian at one point or another be it one year ago or 20 years ago. We probably read the Bible, went to church, and had a relationship with Christ and other Believers. Well something happened that made that go away. Perhaps it was not a big event, perhaps it was slowly that we all stopped reading, stopped praying and stopped believing. Maybe we started to doubt and question our faith long before the deconversion actually occured as is the case with a lot of people. Maybe we started to doubt what God said in His Word and that it is real....but instead of drawing closer to Him during this time, we went with the worlds theories and CHOSE to pull away from God. Instead of reading the Word we started reading all that non sense that the world has to over. We become intrigued with that instead of believe Gods Word. So like I said we CHOSE that...we chose not to read the Bible, not to believe the Bible and God, not to go to church anymore and all the rest. That is a choice.

Once again, I have to trumpet loudly, as I am the elephant in your room. Ignore me if you like, but none of this applies to me. I didn't even read the Bible until well into my adulthood. The God that I believed in at one time wasn't even a personal one. I stopped believing in it when I ran out of reasons to resume such belief.

 

You can pretend I don't exist, but I do. I'll just keep on trumpeting.

 

 

Now that I have come full circle I can see that everything that happened to me was my fault. Not Gods fault. I was mad at God for a while..that He allowed certain things to happen to me etc. But now I see that I made choices...and everyone who is an ex-christian made a choice to leave. You say you were not able to believe anymore, but again I dont think so.

Ah, so you're projecting. Nice of you to admit as much. And yet you wonder why this is making people angry.

 

 

Im really not botherd if people here think I am this that or the other. I answer to God only so that makes it really simple on my part. And as far as sharing my personal testimony....I dont feel comftorable to do that here to be honest. I dont think it will be accepted and I dont think it will do much good except get people to rally up against me and use my testimony against me. Thats what I sense.

Because you know that you're wrong. You are acutely aware of the weaknesses in your reason, and you don't want to expose them to the forum, because you'll get raked over the coals.

 

 

God is perfect in all His ways...the fact that we do not understand His ways does not make Him wrong. He never lies, He is incapable of lying, and His Word is true 100%. He is coming back

Translation: "LALALALALALALA!!! I can't HEAR you!"

 

 

Its not so much that people here are liars, but rather deceived by darkness and the evil one.

Of course. The Big Bad Wolf.

[Antlerman]

Whenever you care to have a real discussion about your beliefs, if you want someone who is willing to listen and dialog (but expects the same in return), I am that person. But I suspect you won't because this isn't about something good you've found. It's about defending a religion that you're hiding behind. In other words, this isn't God, it's about you.

 

Adversity is awesome evidence of being right "in Jesus". Every fight brings the believer of this premise closer to Jesus. Not-fight, as one would get with you, isn't at all satisfying as it disconfirms the belief.

 

What's missing from the equation is the believer's responsibility for letting the fight in, for growing the conflict it to get a bigger persecution "hit". Fights are welcomed with behavior, placement of energy, and choice focus of attention. These draw in individuals who are also game for a fight. You just aren't useful here, A-man.

 

Phanta

I'm always useful.

 

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs. To draw her to discussion guided by the principles and heart of love and compassion is to disarm the weapons in their hands of Bible quotes and names of Authority to support them and leave them without excuse. "You say you have faith? Show me your faith by your works".

 

You cannot argue Love like some metaphysical, theological, apologetic argument. You either have it or you do not, it either lives in you are you fall short; it either manifests itself as Truth and Sincerity and Compassion, or it does not. You can't fake love. You can't argue love from a book. It's not an argument, it's Life from within and cannot be reasoned into being. It is an exposure of Truth, and a hope to hear its Voice beyond ones religion. If not, in the end they have religion as God, and not God. You say you've found God? Show God.

 

"By their fruits you shall know them." "A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor an evil tree bear good fruit". You can't argue Truth. You live Truth.

[Ouroboros]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

[Antlerman]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

I see it as a form of spiritual sickness. They want to feel the connection, but they're doing it through artificial means that leaves you in a state of dysfunction, not health.

 

By their fruits you shall know them. A healthy body does not ooze disease that infects the world. "Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself." This is not love.

[allmyfriendsaretheistlol]

Sorry my friend but u never left religion, ALL ofmy friends clam to be Christians, some of them smoke, some drink, some see bad movies and some don’t go to church or read the bible, but in one way or another (like you) they all believe in jeeeeesus. I know your first thoughts right now are, well there not true Christians hehe, but then (who shall cast the first stone a). The point is I didn’t leave the wacky would of religion to be (free), that came later:)

 

No its not your time yet my friend, when it is you’ll find yourself reading a lot of books about religions, there history’s and how they all got started. But until then if Christianity is what makes you fill all warm and fuzzy inside, well that’s where you need to be… Good day

 

 

[Vigile]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

 

Yeah, I agree with both of you. At the same time, I think answering back is just what the doctor ordered for some of the people here, especially the newer exers. I remember how angry I got the first couple of times I read the "you were never an xian in the first place" or "you walked away" on this site. I'd already been an ex christian for 10 years and it really stewed me. Now I just shrug, but I'm used to it.

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, I agree with both of you. At the same time, I think answering back is just what the doctor ordered for some of the people here, especially the newer exers. I remember how angry I got the first couple of times I read the "you were never an xian in the first place" or "you walked away" on this site. I'd already been an ex christian for 10 years and it really stewed me. Now I just shrug, but I'm used to it.

Also a very good point!

 

Her attitude doesn't bug me as much as it used to. Now, I find it more entertaining to just play around and tease them to get a reaction, get them out of their comfort zone.

[Antlerman]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

 

Yeah, I agree with both of you.

It's always nice when we see eye to eye.

 

At the same time, I think answering back is just what the doctor ordered for some of the people here, especially the newer exers.

In not small part do I support these sorts of apologists who come in here seeking to convert, because it is very cathartic for the deconverting to empower themselves by standing up finally and saying "NO!" to being threatened and intimidated by believers using the name of God as a weapon against others as they fight to defend their religion as their god. It creates a sort of 'scratching post' for the Lion "Cub's" to sharpen their claws against in learning to defend against and tear apart these attacks as they grow stronger. Eventually though, you don't feel the need to fight back, but simply watch with curiosity until you feel annoyed for some reason, and then the job gets done in one swipe of your surgically sharp claws.

 

But then I realize too that they are struggling humans as all of us are, and what they are manifesting in their apologist disease is symptomatic of their own existential issues. It's just manifesting as a type of dysfunction, feeling needs to create an us/them, lost/saved, right/wrong sort of dichotomy to try to find a suitable environment for them to exist in, to grow within. For me, it's compassion that hears the heart, that 'soul' behind the facades of systems and religions, and languages, and symbols, to the nature that needs and wants what every one of us all want. So for me, anyone who turns to religion and finds it working for them to in fact produce that common fruit that we all desire, then I will call them 'brother'. If however the religion is used to damn and condemn and judge others, then I will call them diseased and in need of higher Truth.

 

I find though that allowing nature to take its course, and participating in it as part of it will generate positive ends through that conflict, that struggle of Life into Itself. It's not about possessing truth, but allowing Truth.

 

She has a long ways to go to apprehend this.

[Phanta]

 

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs. To draw her to discussion guided by the principles and heart of love and compassion is to disarm the weapons in their hands of Bible quotes and names of Authority to support them and leave them without excuse. "You say you have faith? Show me your faith by your works".

 

I love what you wrote here!

 

Of course, you can't really draw someone in. Rather, you (plural) draw and are drawn in together. Here, engagement isn't reciprocated, and that is a choice, and that is what is so interesting. J's repeated choice is, instead, to invest her energy in and direct her focus on that which increases her feelings of persecution, of struggling as a victim in the cosmic battle!

 

It's LARPing! I'm fascinated.

 

You cannot argue Love like some metaphysical, theological, apologetic argument. You either have it or you do not, it either lives in you are you fall short; it either manifests itself as Truth and Sincerity and Compassion, or it does not. You can't fake love. You can't argue love from a book. It's not an argument, it's Life from within and cannot be reasoned into being. It is an exposure of Truth, and a hope to hear its Voice beyond ones religion. If not, in the end they have religion as God, and not God. You say you've found God? Show God.

 

You have it or you don't? Sometimes I am able to manifest Love and sometimes I am not. I am not All Love All The Time. In moments.

 

My experience.

 

??

 

Phanta

[Antlerman]

You cannot argue Love like some metaphysical, theological, apologetic argument. You either have it or you do not, it either lives in you are you fall short; it either manifests itself as Truth and Sincerity and Compassion, or it does not. You can't fake love. You can't argue love from a book. It's not an argument, it's Life from within and cannot be reasoned into being. It is an exposure of Truth, and a hope to hear its Voice beyond ones religion. If not, in the end they have religion as God, and not God. You say you've found God? Show God.

 

You have it or you don't? Sometimes I am able to manifest Love and sometimes I am not. I am not All Love All The Time. In moments.

 

My experience.

 

??

 

Phanta

I realized that was not really clearly reflective of how I see it. It's not that it comes and goes out of you, but rather it is always already. It is like the sky. It is our states within it that vary, but it is in us and us in it, like clouds passing overhead in sky. What I really mean to say as that you manifest it to degrees. But you cannot produce it, create it, manufacture. It is not a state, it IS. And how much or how less you are a state of being with it is known through its manifestation in you and through you.

 

BTW, this is the heart of mysticism, not 'woo woo' junk such as that woman who went to hell, blah, blah.

[Moxie]

Justyna -

 

Your beliefs are all in your mind. You make them up, and you use the Bible to keep them intact. You convince yourself that christianity is true because deep down, you are afraid of burning in the hell that you imagine in your mind. The payoff you get is feeling like you are better than others, and better off than others. It takes a tremendous amount of arrogance to claim that you have something that others need, and if they don't get it, they will burn forever and you will not. Now I know you will say that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god", and you will include yourself in that to make it look like you are not arrogant. But no matter what you say, it is your way of continually trying to be right instead of being real. None of us know whether there is a god or not. Now you will say "You must have faith". So in your mind, your faith makes you better, and better off than others. There's the arrogance again.

[Phanta]

I realized that was not really clearly reflective of how I see it. It's not that it comes and goes out of you, but rather it is always already. It is like the sky. It is our states within it that vary, but it is in us and us in it, like clouds passing overhead in sky. What I really mean to say as that you manifest it to degrees. But you cannot produce it, create it, manufacture. It is not a state, it IS. And how much or how less you are a state of being with it is known through its manifestation in you and through you.

 

This is pretty much my sense of things. When I am in "a state of being with it", I sense it happening and I seem channel it outward. People seem to respond very strongly and very well when I am with it and near them, which is an excellent bonus!

 

My life's desire is to always be moving to behavior that aligns me moreso with that goodness, and yet I'm so often discordant with it. I hate that. Why does it have to be this way? So frustrating! My limitations seem inherent to existing in a human body in this physical world. I'm really struggling with that fact at the moment. I want to be in that other state all the time, and yet I can't. Why?

 

It's easy to see how a religion starts.

 

Phanta

[lunaticheathen]

I realized that was not really clearly reflective of how I see it. It's not that it comes and goes out of you, but rather it is always already. It is like the sky. It is our states within it that vary, but it is in us and us in it, like clouds passing overhead in sky. What I really mean to say as that you manifest it to degrees. But you cannot produce it, create it, manufacture. It is not a state, it IS. And how much or how less you are a state of being with it is known through its manifestation in you and through you.

 

This is pretty much my sense of things. When I am in "a state of being with it", I sense it happening and I seem channel it outward. People seem to respond very strongly and very well when I am with it and near them, which is an excellent bonus!

 

My life's desire is to always be moving to behavior that aligns me moreso with that goodness, and yet I'm so often discordant with it. I hate that. Why does it have to be this way? So frustrating! My limitations seem inherent to existing in a human body in this physical world. I'm really struggling with that fact at the moment. I want to be in that other state all the time, and yet I can't. Why?

 

It's easy to see how a religion starts.

 

Phanta

 

I totally identify with this struggle. I all too often feel like the cub attacking the scratching posts, and not enough like the calm Queen of the Jungle. I think you can see it in my posts here.

The arrogance of people like Justyna really gets to me, because I know they wear blinkers, I know they pretend compassion in their silly threats, and yet, it makes me just want to scratch their eyes out (figuratively)!

 

Maybe I'm channeling too much Ezili Danto? I don't know.

 

Love is better, and even Danto loves (in her way), but I don't feel like I manifest it as often as I should. And some people make it VERY difficult! And I'm just a short, and short tempered, spitfire Gulf gal.

[Paganesque]

I have been lurking on this post (and this SITE) since it was posted and I finally feel the need to say something. CrazyDonna made an EXCELLENT point with the Noah's Ark argument. I find it sad that the OP could not respond to the questions asked in CrazyDonna's reply.

But you know what I think? I think that this world would be fucked if we didn't have religion (and ESPECIALLY christianity) to help run it. Let them live their lives thinking that they will go to a mansion in the sky and live eternally with all their dead relatives. The reason I think this is because obviously, any person who believes in all of this is delusional, unstable, and they depend on it for their daily emotion survival. Imagine what would happen if ALL xians suddenly realized that their bible and their savior was a bunch of BS. We would have a worldwide panic on our hands. People would have nothing to live for. They would have no one to please by being "good." The economy would suffer tremendously. (Churches are multimillion dollar corporations)

So screw it. Why try to convert someone away from xianity? We shut them down when they try to convert us right? So why would they listen if we tried to convert them? First of all, it's like trying to convert a pro-lifer into a pro-choicer or vice versa. Impossible and pointless. Not gonna happen!

I know, it hurts. It's sad. My xian mother and I talk about religion and my leaving it all the time. She asks me what I think about God, I tell her, and she quotes bible verses. She doesn't understand that the bible has no meaning to me. But you know what? She needs a god, just like the millions of other hopeless people who have nothing/no one else to put their trust in. So I say goodbye to OP, hello to my life as a freethinking, self-motivating HUMAN. Let them be robots, it's all they have to live for. OP never should have been here in the first place, she needs her god and bible to be able to cope. Let us not guilt her into coming back or trying to deconvert her, making her feel stupid and worthless for her choice. Because it's not really a choice, is it? It's knowledge. You cannot choose to be educated on a subject, you have to go out there and learn about it. OP doesn't want to learn, has no interest in learning and we have no place making her feel like shit despite her rudeness, ignorance and fakeness. DO you guys see what getting at?

[Ouroboros]

I actually never said that anyone here is a liar. If you read my posts no where do I say that anyone is a liar. I said we made choices to draw near to God and we made choices to draw away from God.And that is true.

NO. That is FALSE.

 

I didn't choose to draw away from God. I just didn't see, experience, or feel God at all. I had nothing in my life that I could say had its source in God. Nothing. I wanted to. I prayed. I read the Bible. I went to church. I wanted to keep my faith, but I couldn't. Reality was screaming in my face, and I woke up. Since then, I have grown up. I'm not a child anymore.

 

The only reason why you believe is because you have a child's brain. You are keeping your ignorance and silly attitude toward the world. You refuse to see the truth. You refuse to see reality. You just want to live in your little dream world.

 

I have never said "Crazy-Donna You Are A Liar." I have never said, "Realist You Are A Liar." No where have I said that..no where. I actually was called a liar and many many many other names which I know I am not.

Crazy Donna made a very good point. By the fact that you say that we are wrong in what we're saying, you are in fact saying that we are lying.

 

But we all know here who is the liar. You promised to leave. You didn't. You lied.

 

What I said is that you are either "A liar, misguided, or confused," if you think that Jesus left you...because He never did and He never will as His Word says, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

He's just an imaginary character. If you try to imagine him hard enough, he might show up in your schizophrenic brain.

 

I also said that we as people CHOOSE to believe in God or we CHOOSE not to believe in God.

WRONG.

 

I said if you do not believe in Him, then it is your own fault because Scripture states clearly that "If we draw close to Him, He will draw close to us." So if we are not close to Him, then we did not draw near onto Him according to scripture.

I prayed. I read the Bible. I went to church. I didn't want to lose my faith. But I did. I even prayed to God to give me more faith. When I didn't get more faith, but instead was losing it, I just had nothing left.

 

Faith and belief is an emotion, not a choice.

 

Only immature people have your kind of faith.

 

I actually never called anyone a liar. I myself was called a liar by presenting the TRUTH.

You are not presenting the truth.

 

You are presenting a false image of me and many others here. You are presenting lies.

 

I have also never called anyone here names, I have not cussed at anyone, and never once have I gotten mad or upset as some people here have. I have remained calm and presented the TRUTH which is the Gospel.

But you are presenting lies at the same time. You are making false statements about us. False statements = lies.

 

And you did promise to leave and didn't. Your yes should be yes, and your no should be no. In your case, you promise things and don't fulfill them. You are not trustworthy.

[Guest Justyna]

I think people are making this about me personally when really it is all about Jesus. I am just the vessel that delivered the message, an in-perfect vessel that is changing daily from glory to glory to represent the image of Christ more each day. So if you do not believe me and my story that is one thing...but at least believe His Words and what He says because He is not a liar. Tomorrow is not promised to any of us (and that includes me). Any of us can die tomorrow and how we lived our life on this Earth depends on where we go in the next life. And what I mean by this is not that we have to be perfect in this life to go to Heaven but just have a relationship with Christ that is real and authentic.

 

I really was not going to mention this because I do see that there is another thread that has been started by another Christian about this BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

 

Some here have said that they have NEVER heard the voice of God. I find that strange since it says that "My sheep hear My voice." I hear God's voice all the time on a regular basis. So something is not right here. Perhaps some people here never knew Him personally the way you would know someone if you were in a relationship with them. If that is the case, then those people never knew Him to begin with. That would mean they never de-converted since technically they never knew Him to begin with. That is what brought me back to Him. I remembered our times together and how He would speak to me and comfort me, how He would help me, how He would tell me that He is proud of me and that I am His. I remembered those things and I missed Him and came back to Him.

 

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now. I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread. Even though there were times when I was mad at Him and questioned my faith...I KNEW Him personally and KNEW that He was not those things. I do agree that just plain old religion is bad. I think it is about the relationship with Him. A relationship is two way. I would talk to Him, and He would answer my prayers and respond. Who here has had that cause it seems not a lot of people had. It seems like a lot of people were into Christianity for a while at some point but Jesus was not their Personal Savior. He was not in their hearts. He was not in their thoughts and He was not in their spirits. I find that strange.

 

I am being accused of never deconverted....but something tells me that probably only a small percentage of people on this messageboard knew Him personally. I will even venture out and say that no one here has known Him in that way (except the Christians). Perhaps they prophesied and they were on the ministry team at church and sang in the choir but did not know Him personally. I see that a lot. I see it at my church too. Some Christians do not know Him. Although I am not perfect in all my ways, I know I have a relationship with Him. I actually have a journal that I write in most days and write my thoughts to Him and write out my prayers. Then when I sense in my spirit that He is saying something back to me and responds, I write that down in that journal. Its a two way street. Who here has that? I have not seen anyone yet which leads me to believe no one. Now I am not saying everyone needs to be like me to be right, but they do need to hear Him. Who here has heard Him speak their name? I remember I was in church a long time ago and the overwhelming feeling I felt when I heard His voice for the firt time, and I heard Him say my name for the first time! I was overjoyed for I knew that He knew who I was...and since then I have had a relationship with Him. Have I messed up along the way? Oh yes, most definitely so! Am I the first to admit that I made mistakes? Yes I am.

 

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

[Ouroboros]

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

What is not adding up here is that you are dishonest. You claim to have the truth, but you simultaneously make false statements and false promises.

[Vigile]

The reason I think this is because obviously, any person who believes in all of this is delusional, unstable, and they depend on it for their daily emotion survival. Imagine what would happen if ALL xians suddenly realized that their bible and their savior was a bunch of BS. We would have a worldwide panic on our hands. People would have nothing to live for. They would have no one to please by being "good." The economy would suffer tremendously. (Churches are multimillion dollar corporations)

 

I think what you are describing would be the shock, should they suddenly all be given the blue pill. I live in Russia and most people (well over 90%) are completely ambivalent about religion. If it means anything to them it's an undefined idea and an icon to put on the dashboard of their car for luck and help against accidents. I lived in Italy and while they all profess to be Catholic, it has no real meaning in their lives either; not like it does in the lives of religious Americans. Both countries do fine without it and arguably enjoy higher levels of morality; perhaps as a result.

[Paganesque]

I think what you are describing would be the shock, should they suddenly all be given the blue pill. I live in Russia and most people (well over 90%) are completely ambivalent about religion. If it means anything to them it's an undefined idea and an icon to put on the dashboard of their car for luck and help against accidents. I lived in Italy and while they all profess to be Catholic, it has no real meaning in their lives either; not like it does in the lives of religious Americans. Both countries do fine without it and arguably enjoy higher levels of morality; perhaps as a result.

 

I'm talking about the radicals, the jesus freaks, the fundies. The "real" christians, if there is such a thing. But you're right, most people who claim a religion are not fully involved in that religion, they were just raised that way or like the idea of heaven or whatnot. Good point.