Im A Christian Again

[Antlerman]

Okay so 2 people so far have said that they knew Him in a personal way. Now here is another question. Who here has actually heard His actual voice? Like I said it says that "My sheep hear My voice."

 

Also there is a difference between knowing about Him....and knowing Him.

Did you actually read my post?? Did you read every single word and consider them? http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/40014-im-a-christian-again/page__view__findpost__p__587586 Then how can you ask this?

 

But I will say this, that your reference of "My sheep hear my voice", is not about hearing literal, auditory sounds saying "I am here doing this now". It means something on the order of, "As many as are born of the spirit are led by the spirit". It's a spiritual knowing, not an auditory hearing.

 

You really don't understand this?

 

But, yes, I did have a manifestation one time that was auditory. In no way though do I take that to mean God has vocal chords, or that is the meaning of that verse! If you hear things like that as a normal way of living, then I would say there is probably something wrong medically, and this is not a manifestation of some spiritual, transcendent sort of experience. If it were, I guarantee you wouldn't be glibly talking about it.

 

Those sorts of things are "peak experiences", if you have ever had that and not some sort of auditory hallucination. Peak experiences are profound states of consciousness that open you to an awareness beyond reason and frameworks of understandings. There impact is profound, and the effect they leave is profound. In my case life-altering.

 

But then the real test is in moral growth. If you have experienced something like this, I find it hard to believe that your heart had not be so profoundly impacted that to conceive of anyone as lost, damned, outside God, etc, would have to do great harm to your spirit which would have been so overwhelmed by Absolute Compassion, that any thought like that would be injuring to you. Yet what are we hearing?

 

Are you ready to talk?

[Phanta]

1. I was doing ministry when I was about 20ish and doing outreaches. This one guy came up to me and asked me to pray for him. I did pray for him and then I felt like God was telling me to tell him something about his life. It was something that he said no one knew and he was stunned that I told him. I said Jesus told me, and he believed. How do you explain that since I never met that guy before?

 

2. There have been numerous times when my paster (at the time) would tell me things about my life that no one knew. How is that possible? Only God could have told him.

 

I can often tell upon meeting someone casually that they are the offspring of an alcoholic parent. I never talk to Jesus, nor have I "felt God". How is that possible?

 

Phanta

You probably know this already, but I'm responding to your question anyway for the purpose of other readers.

 

The "feeling" is the subconscious responding to learned signals. There are plenty of experiments showing that we are able to analyze and come to conclusions in our subconscious before we become conscious about it.

 

Did Justyna claim she had some degree in psychology? I could be remembering it wrong. It sounds strange she doesn't know about these things.

 

That's right. I recognize specific qualities that fit a profile.

 

Funny thing is, I couldn't tell you what the behavior is right now, because I have no motivation to remember it--it's an automatic connection I make on an unconscious level and it's always accurate. No need to memorize or study it. I just know. And every time this happens, I remember it is the same signal I've cued in on in the past. I find it pretty darned amusing.

 

Here's another one: I knew an acquaintance was having dire marital problems. Did he tell me any such thing? No. Did he even so much as imply it? No. He never spoke disrespectfully of his wife. EVER. There was no tension in his voice, nothing. Despite having a very dangerous job where wedding rings are rarely worn, he wore his every day.

 

Yet...he rarely spoke of her. She was a giant hole in the story we tell others every day about our lives. When he did speak of her, it was simple language, gentle. But loveless. Not disinterested, but without love. But, mostly, she was missing from discussions, and the was the clue. Later, I became a confidant, and indeed I was right. Their marriage was dreadful, and eventually came to a divorce on his wishes.

 

And another one: A while after the divorce, my friend started hanging out with a man who was struggling to get a divorce from a woman he had been with for years. My friend saw a similar situation and wanted to support him. I was pretty sure this new friend was gay. My friend scoffed at me. I didn't know why at the time, I just sensed unconsciously this new friend -- a burly man with a couple kids and a long marriage-- was gay. I couldn't explain it, so I shrugged, but was pretty darned sure of myself. Weeks later, my friend went through another break-up. A short time after, his divorcing male friend propositioned him. I was right! Did anyone tell me this man was gay? No. Not a chance. Did he fit some kind of gay caricature? Nope. Did I get a special message about it from Jesus? Nope. No praying here. But I was SPOT ON. Why? Well, eventually my conscious mind sorted out that straight men who are suffering in the breaking-up stage tend to be primarily drawn to the comfort (whatever form that may take) of women, not making brand new male best friends. Seeking out the comfort of those we wish to be seen as desirable to is a pretty normal response to the particular kind of blow divorce can make to the self-esteem.

 

It's not hard to fill in blanks based on subtle cues. Often we aren't even conscious of them.

 

Phanta

[bdp]

 

 

Fuck you.

[Phanta]

My advice is read some good literature, go to the opera, have a baby, learn something new. Any and all of these things can be and usually is more profound than the imaginary relationship you have with your pastor's conscience.

 

Woah. Poignant.

[bdp]

 

 

I can go on forever

 

That I don't doubt.

 

Jesus H. fucking goddamn Christ, I could tell warm and fuzzy stories like those from my Xtian days too. IT MEANS NOTHING.

[Realist]

....I learned to speak in tongues when I was 11 or 12.

 

What Ouroboros says here to me PROVES the power indoctrination holds over a person. When you are in that state of "brainwash" you unfortunately are not aware of it. Whether that "brainwash" has been influenced by your church, your pastor, or your OWN reading and intepretation of the bible that is irrelevant! It is not until you realise ALL your statements and feelings have been brought about by a highly flawed book that IS NOT divinely inspired that you will understand this!

 

Several in this post have stated they learned to speak in tongues and it was a sign of the holy spirit. I am NOT stating the following to argue the point. I am stating it to show you how COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY species of "born again" christians can take the same book and interpret two entirely different messages out of it! We were taught the EXACT opposite! Speaking in tongues was WITHOUT DOUBT of the devil! Our very fundie church backed it up with THEIR interpretation of the KJV! It was always taught in ministry meetings! So anyone speaking in tongues was clearly a wolf in sheep's clothing. See the power of indoctrination is SO strong, with MY BRAINWASHING if I rated people these days who were LIKELY christians and who were not, if someone told me they spoke in tongues I would STILL think you were unlikely to be a (true!) christian! This is how strong indoctrination is and what it does to a person!

Interestingly by the way, Dr Marlene Winell stated in one interview of hers she has tried in more recent times and can STILL speak in tongues! Guess that says something!

 

So yes, the power and feelings of indoctrination ARE that strong! I still for one can remember the immense joy christmas held as a child when santa REALLY did exist! (even 50 years later!)

[bdp]

Justyna want a story?

 

Back in the early 90's I worked with a guy named Steve; Steve had an acquaintance named Jamie. Jamie was in an auto accident - speeding down the highway at 80 mph when a tire flew off a car flying along at 80 in the opposite direction, the tire tore through Jamie's car and ripped her out of it, throwing her into the ditch with the car door landing on top of her. Every one of her internal organs was bleeding and one lung punctured; doctors did all they could but couldn't stop the bleeding or reinflate the lung, she was critical and not improving, and the doctors told her family to prepare because they were going to be losing her within 24 hours. Now it happened that I had not had breakfast on the day Steve told me about this so I decided to go on a working fast for the rest of the day on the job, went home for lunch and fasted and prayed, and did the same after work, and just felt a 'confirmation' that she would be okay. Next day Steve told me that Jamie's bleeding had stopped, the lung returned to normal, she was in stable condition and improving, and the doctors were stumped and proclaiming it a miracle.

 

But...

 

That weekend Jamie was allowed out of bed for the first time, and her doctor was discussing a release date for the upcoming week. When it was time for her to get back into bed three nurses were lifting her - one at her feet, one at her head and one supporting her back. When she was halfway over the bed the one supporting her back inexplicably let go; the other two lost their grip, Jamie fell out of their hands, hitting the side of the bed and landing heavily on the floor. Sutures ripped and her lung collapsed again; she was rushed to emergency and the doctors did all they could but, again, couldn't stop all the bleeding. I heard about this on Monday morning, went back to my desk, said a prayer and instantly 'knew' she was going to be okay and told Steve so. But the next day he came in and told me that she was still critical, not improving, and, again, doctors had told the family to prepare to lose her, there was no way she could pull through this kind of trauma twice. I was stunned - I 'knew' she was going to live, I had 'confirmation' in the spirit, how could she not live? As it happened I had skipped breakfast again that day so I did what I had done before, fast all day at work and later at home. Well, the bleeding stopped, the lung returned to normal, and Jamie lives to this day - she and her family both credited my prayers with her miraculous recovery. I put it down to her own will to live.

 

But, when my dad had cancer I prayed just as fervently, had the Michigan State campus fellowship I was attending praying, my own home church was praying, and any and all of my relatives who were the type to do so were praying - my dad died.

 

We don't hate what we don't believe in - grasp that if you grasp nothing else.

[Realist]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

 

... I agree here! Good point Antlerman!

 

In fact there are some very good points coming out in this topic!

 

Any chance maybe of pinning it Antlerman?

[Realist]

To fight back at her is to validate her persecution needs.

Very good point.

 

And I think it was her purpose and plan from the beginning.

 

Funny how similar Christian persecution junkies are to Internet trolls...

 

Yeah, I agree with both of you. At the same time, I think answering back is just what the doctor ordered for some of the people here, especially the newer exers. I remember how angry I got the first couple of times I read the "you were never an xian in the first place" or "you walked away" on this site. I'd already been an ex christian for 10 years and it really stewed me. Now I just shrug, but I'm used to it.

 

 

... very good point here too Vigile!

[Realist]

Justyna want a story?

 

Back in the early 90's I worked with a guy named Steve; Steve had an acquaintance named Jamie. Jamie was in an auto accident - speeding down the highway at 80 mph when a tire flew off a car flying along at 80 in the opposite direction, the tire tore through Jamie's car and ripped her out of it, throwing her into the ditch with the car door landing on top of her. Every one of her internal organs was bleeding and one lung punctured; doctors did all they could but couldn't stop the bleeding or reinflate the lung, she was critical and not improving, and the doctors told her family to prepare because they were going to be losing her within 24 hours. Now it happened that I had not had breakfast on the day Steve told me about this so I decided to go on a working fast for the rest of the day on the job, went home for lunch and fasted and prayed, and did the same after work, and just felt a 'confirmation' that she would be okay. Next day Steve told me that Jamie's bleeding had stopped, the lung returned to normal, she was in stable condition and improving, and the doctors were stumped and proclaiming it a miracle.

 

But...

 

That weekend Jamie was allowed out of bed for the first time, and her doctor was discussing a release date for the upcoming week. When it was time for her to get back into bed three nurses were lifting her - one at her feet, one at her head and one supporting her back. When she was halfway over the bed the one supporting her back inexplicably let go; the other two lost their grip, Jamie fell out of their hands, hitting the side of the bed and landing heavily on the floor. Sutures ripped and her lung collapsed again; she was rushed to emergency and the doctors did all they could but, again, couldn't stop all the bleeding. I heard about this on Monday morning, went back to my desk, said a prayer and instantly 'knew' she was going to be okay and told Steve so. But the next day he came in and told me that she was still critical, not improving, and, again, doctors had told the family to prepare to lose her, there was no way she could pull through this kind of trauma twice. I was stunned - I 'knew' she was going to live, I had 'confirmation' in the spirit, how could she not live? As it happened I had skipped breakfast again that day so I did what I had done before, fast all day at work and later at home. Well, the bleeding stopped, the lung returned to normal, and Jamie lives to this day - she and her family both credited my prayers with her miraculous recovery. I put it down to her own will to live.

 

But, when my dad had cancer I prayed just as fervently, had the Michigan State campus fellowship I was attending praying, my own home church was praying, and any and all of my relatives who were the type to do so were praying - my dad died.

 

We don't hate what we don't believe in - grasp that if you grasp nothing else.

 

... are yes bdp! But god does not assist amputees! For some strange reason he is not interested in them! Does he think this would provide too much evidence of his existence? Or maybe no one YET has been able to have that much faith in their god?

[Ouroboros]

It's not hard to fill in blanks based on subtle cues. Often we aren't even conscious of them.

Interesting read, and I agree.

 

And to this, we actually learn over the years, through experience, to read some non-verbal clues in the form of body language, tone of voice, and diction (like you mentioned about the marital problem guy). Our bodies speak. Our voices speak, even when we won't use words. It comes from the fact that we evolved from non-language animals. Dogs use body language, and many other species as well. And that behavior is ingrained and innate in our nature. We learn to read those cues (to some extent), and subconsciously we get an impression what the other person is really saying. It's also the drawback of Internet communication. We can't fully tell what the other person is saying.

 

And I would think that our friend here would know these things. It only proves that religion stamps out natural understanding of our world, and replace it with some pseudo-science that doesn't really fit.

[Yalta]

I read, I fellowshiped and prayed. Then something clicked when I was 18 and He started to speak to me directly. So you can "know" about Him....or you really really KNOW Him.

Justyna - do you mean to say you heard the audible voice of God, outloud, like a radio or something?

I believe she's suffering auditory hallucinations, just like Van Gogh. (Poor guy)

 

What did Mike Tyson say to Vincent Van Gogh?

 

Hey, you gonna eat that?

 

 

 

Okay, now back to our regularly scheduled verbal beating at the hands of the fake exChristian who totally fails at proving her beliefs true.

[lunaticheathen]

Did I have a relashiunshiiiip with Jeebus? Did I hear him? Not, but not for fucking lack of trying.

It was a one-way relationship, all the way, and a deadbeat, abusive one to boot. I cried/prayed/studied/begged my tits off, and if that and my suicide attempt wasn't enough conviction for Jesus to respond, FUCK HIM.

Now, I'm glad I never "knew" him. He seems like a total dick.

[Phanta]

It's not hard to fill in blanks based on subtle cues. Often we aren't even conscious of them.

Interesting read, and I agree.

 

And to this, we actually learn over the years, through experience, to read some non-verbal clues in the form of body language, tone of voice, and diction (like you mentioned about the marital problem guy). Our bodies speak. Our voices speak, even when we won't use words. It comes from the fact that we evolved from non-language animals. Dogs use body language, and many other species as well. And that behavior is ingrained and innate in our nature. We learn to read those cues (to some extent), and subconsciously we get an impression what the other person is really saying. It's also the drawback of Internet communication. We can't fully tell what the other person is saying.

 

And I would think that our friend here would know these things. It only proves that religion stamps out natural understanding of our world, and replace it with some pseudo-science that doesn't really fit.

 

Dogs are amazing with this! I've read that speech is only a small part of how we receive communication. It's not even 50% of the way we receive a message.

 

Coolio.

 

Phanta

[Astreja]

You say you were not able to believe anymore, but again I dont think so.

Justyna, we don't f%cking care what you claim to 'think' on the matter. Simply put, we know our minds; you do not. We know what we have experienced; you do not.

 

We are only as close to God as we want to be.

Nonsense. If you rephrased that as 'We are only as close to figments of our imagination as we want to be," then you might have a point worthy of discussion.

 

And as far as sharing my personal testimony....I dont feel comftorable to do that here to be honest. I dont think it will be accepted and I dont think it will do much good except get people to rally up against me and use my testimony against me. Thats what I sense.

Okay, you got one thing right. We don't care about your testimony, and we will use it against you. Don't even bother.

 

God is perfect in all His ways...the fact that we do not understand His ways does not make Him wrong. He never lies, He is incapable of lying, and His Word is true 100%. He is coming back

Heeheeheeheehee! (snorts Cabernet-Merlot out Her nose and mops it off the monitor) Biblegod, 'perfect'? If the book of Genesis is any indication, your imaginary friend couldn't even manage a garden without screwing up.

 

Justyna, at the moment of your physical death you will lose consciousness, lose your sense of self, and automatically become an Ex-Christian... Forever. You will not find yourself in either heaven or hell; you will not even know that you are dead.

 

And your god is not coming back... Not in your lifetime, or Mine, or anyone else's... Because 'coming back' implies that it actually existed at some point in the past.

 

Its not so much that people here are liars, but rather deceived by darkness and the evil one.

Don't flatter yourself. We're not deceived by you, and you're a rank amateur as far as evil is concerned.

 

I actually never said that anyone here is a liar.

I disagree; you have most certainly implied by repeated assertions that we did not tell the truth about our own beliefs, despite the fact that you almost certainly do not possess the ability to read our minds. (If you disagree on this point, we can set up an experiment to test your mindreading ability.)

 

You have now compounded the dishonour of falsehood with the dishonour of cowardice, and My seiðr against you stands as written. May you become completely incapable of misleading or deceiving anyone, anywhere, for any reason whatsoever.

 

I think people are making this about me personally when really it is all about Jesus.

No, Justyna, this is definitely about you. If Jesus wants to talk to us, he'll have to create his own account.

 

I really was not going to mention this... BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

Many of us *did* think we knew Jesus in an intimate way. However, any 'relationship' we might have had simply vanished as soon as we realized that there was no real Jesus on the other end of the line.

 

Am I the first to admit that I made mistakes? Yes I am.

Unless it involves calling us liars, apparently. Do the right thing, Justyna: Say "I'm sorry; I don't know what you personally experienced while you were Christians, and I apologize for any hurt that I caused." (And do it without adding "...but..." or any other weasel-word qualifiers.)

 

Try it. Seriously. It can't possibly make your situation here any worse.

[Crazy Donna]

I think people are making this about me personally when really it is all about Jesus. I am just the vessel that delivered the message, an in-perfect vessel that is changing daily from glory to glory to represent the image of Christ more each day. So if you do not believe me and my story that is one thing...but at least believe His Words and what He says because He is not a liar. Tomorrow is not promised to any of us (and that includes me). Any of us can die tomorrow and how we lived our life on this Earth depends on where we go in the next life. And what I mean by this is not that we have to be perfect in this life to go to Heaven but just have a relationship with Christ that is real and authentic.

 

No, we are not making something about you personally when it's all about jesus. We don't believe that jesus ever existed. That would be like saying I'm angry with you because you are the messenger of Santa Claus and we don't like his message. It's ridiculous. Try to imagine it from our perspective.

 

We have heard this stuff about jesus and christianity all our lives. There are ex pastors here. There are people who have been christians longer than you have been alive on this site. We know this stuff better than you do. I'm still waiting for an explanation of why a loving god killed everyone during the flood, and 'it's god's will' isn't a reason. It could be Ray Martin's fucking will, it doesn't explain anything. Come back with real answers or fuck off.

I really was not going to mention this because I do see that there is another thread that has been started by another Christian about this BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

 

Some here have said that they have NEVER heard the voice of God. I find that strange since it says that "My sheep hear My voice." I hear God's voice all the time on a regular basis. So something is not right here. Perhaps some people here never knew Him personally the way you would know someone if you were in a relationship with them. If that is the case, then those people never knew Him to begin with. That would mean they never de-converted since technically they never knew Him to begin with. That is what brought me back to Him. I remembered our times together and how He would speak to me and comfort me, how He would help me, how He would tell me that He is proud of me and that I am His. I remembered those things and I missed Him and came back to Him.

 

This is the point I'm making. Some of us have said that we have NEVER heard the voice of god. Never. We looked earnestly. I know, from my experience, that I sought god desperately. I looked for god like a man dying of thirst looks for water. I was desperate. Every molecule of my being wanted god to be a part of my life. I wanted a relationship with god so badly I was willing to forsake many, many things for it. As a teenager, I even believed I would have to go bush and 'live off the grid' during the end times so as not to recieve the Mark of the Beast (an electronic chip for financial transactions) and compromise my relationship with god. I was ready to do it.

 

You hear god's voice. I didn't get diddly squat. All I got was a blank wall. People would come to me with stories of how god revealed himself to them in dreams, or how they heard his voice, and all I would get was silence. I was ready to take ANYTHING as an indication that god was communicating with me. But I didn't get anything. Either god didn't want me, or he doesn't exist. You say I never knew god personally? Well, it wasn't through a lack of trying. I was a diehard christian.

 

You are still calling me a liar by saying I wasn't a real christian, so I never really deconverted. Now you're just grasping at straws and returning to lying again, because what we are saying does not match your interpretation of reality. If your god exists, he didn't want us. We were just made for burning. Otherwise, he doesn't exist.

 

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now. I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread. Even though there were times when I was mad at Him and questioned my faith...I KNEW Him personally and KNEW that He was not those things. I do agree that just plain old religion is bad. I think it is about the relationship with Him. A relationship is two way. I would talk to Him, and He would answer my prayers and respond. Who here has had that cause it seems not a lot of people had. It seems like a lot of people were into Christianity for a while at some point but Jesus was not their Personal Savior. He was not in their hearts. He was not in their thoughts and He was not in their spirits. I find that strange.

 

If you still have to resort to calling us liars, you don't belong here. You have outstayed your welcome. I was a real christian. I thought god had a plan for my life (although nothing seemed to go right) and I thought that even though I didn't hear his voice, I believed often that I felt his presence. I was not caught up in church activities and distracted. I was privately seeking god, and he didn't make himself available. Either he is a liar, or he doesn't exist. If you have to continue to insult us by calling us liars who weren't really christians but who are lying about it now and pretending we have deconverted, you can go fuck yourself. Do you know why I'm angry with you? Because what you are saying is that your worldview is right, and that anyone who doesn't agree with you is automatically wrong. And you refuse to consider that perhaps we are actually telling the truth, because it would damage your shaky faith in an imaginary god. You're just an arrogant twat. If a relationship was two way, I was doing all the fucking work, fuckstick. I thought about jesus constantly. He was constantly in my thoughts, in my heart, and I thought that even though he wasn't communicating with me, he was using me to bring his gift to humanity. I thought that maybe even because I didn't feel special or loved, maybe god actually loved me. You are ready to totally discount my christian experience but expect us to take your experience as the truth based on faith? You bitch. I believed. I believed and knew god on a deeper leven than you ever will. All you can do is spout bible verses and trite little sayings about the qualities of god. You don't really know god, not the way we did. Because if you did, you would understand the profound trauma of losing your faith in god, and you would have sympathy for us, instead of arrogance and accusations of lying. If you were a christian who lost your faith, you would understand this. You wouldn't dismiss it as lying.

 

I am being accused of never deconverted....but something tells me that probably only a small percentage of people on this messageboard knew Him personally. I will even venture out and say that no one here has known Him in that way (except the Christians). Perhaps they prophesied and they were on the ministry team at church and sang in the choir but did not know Him personally. I see that a lot. I see it at my church too. Some Christians do not know Him. Although I am not perfect in all my ways, I know I have a relationship with Him. I actually have a journal that I write in most days and write my thoughts to Him and write out my prayers. Then when I sense in my spirit that He is saying something back to me and responds, I write that down in that journal. Its a two way street. Who here has that? I have not seen anyone yet which leads me to believe no one. Now I am not saying everyone needs to be like me to be right, but they do need to hear Him. Who here has heard Him speak their name? I remember I was in church a long time ago and the overwhelming feeling I felt when I heard His voice for the firt time, and I heard Him say my name for the first time! I was overjoyed for I knew that He knew who I was...and since then I have had a relationship with Him. Have I messed up along the way? Oh yes, most definitely so! Am I the first to admit that I made mistakes? Yes I am.

 

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

We HAVE ENLIGHTENED YOU. Read the posts for the last fifteen pages again. You are just ignoring what we are telling you.

 

You see fake christians a lot, do you? You have fake christian-dar, do you? Well I have arsehole-dar, and my dial is turned way up to eleven.

You're telling me that I wasn't a real christian because I didn't have a little journal I wrote my feelings about god in? Where is that in the bible? Why do I have to write my feelings down, when I could just bloody pray, like I did for untold hours, to a god that either didn't give a fuck about me or doesn't exist. All that shit about choir and doing christian activities, that all means diddly squat. Christianity is not those things, and you must be an arrogant and ignorant moron to think that we would equate 'lip service' behaviours to true christianity. Christianity is what happens in the heart of a person, not the choir or Tuesday Night Bible Study. We're not idiots. You are just resorting to calling us liars AGAIN because you REFUSE to consider the fact that we might be telling the truth, and that either your god made us so that he could reject us and send us to hell for eternity, or that your god doesn't exist.

 

The reason that god killed all the people in the flood despite knowing that he would kill them for their sins, but did it anyway, is the same reason your god rejected us because he created us knowing who we were and what we would do before we did it, but he wanted us to burn for eternity anyway. He either is a malevolent, evil monster, totally diametrically opposed to the 'loving' god you pretend he is, or he doesn't exist.

 

Go eat some ratsak and be with your precious god. You're no longer welcome here.

[Crazy Donna]

Justyna want a story?

 

Back in the early 90's I worked with a guy named Steve; Steve had an acquaintance named Jamie. Jamie was in an auto accident - speeding down the highway at 80 mph when a tire flew off a car flying along at 80 in the opposite direction, the tire tore through Jamie's car and ripped her out of it, throwing her into the ditch with the car door landing on top of her. Every one of her internal organs was bleeding and one lung punctured; doctors did all they could but couldn't stop the bleeding or reinflate the lung, she was critical and not improving, and the doctors told her family to prepare because they were going to be losing her within 24 hours. Now it happened that I had not had breakfast on the day Steve told me about this so I decided to go on a working fast for the rest of the day on the job, went home for lunch and fasted and prayed, and did the same after work, and just felt a 'confirmation' that she would be okay. Next day Steve told me that Jamie's bleeding had stopped, the lung returned to normal, she was in stable condition and improving, and the doctors were stumped and proclaiming it a miracle.

 

But...

 

That weekend Jamie was allowed out of bed for the first time, and her doctor was discussing a release date for the upcoming week. When it was time for her to get back into bed three nurses were lifting her - one at her feet, one at her head and one supporting her back. When she was halfway over the bed the one supporting her back inexplicably let go; the other two lost their grip, Jamie fell out of their hands, hitting the side of the bed and landing heavily on the floor. Sutures ripped and her lung collapsed again; she was rushed to emergency and the doctors did all they could but, again, couldn't stop all the bleeding. I heard about this on Monday morning, went back to my desk, said a prayer and instantly 'knew' she was going to be okay and told Steve so. But the next day he came in and told me that she was still critical, not improving, and, again, doctors had told the family to prepare to lose her, there was no way she could pull through this kind of trauma twice. I was stunned - I 'knew' she was going to live, I had 'confirmation' in the spirit, how could she not live? As it happened I had skipped breakfast again that day so I did what I had done before, fast all day at work and later at home. Well, the bleeding stopped, the lung returned to normal, and Jamie lives to this day - she and her family both credited my prayers with her miraculous recovery. I put it down to her own will to live.

 

But, when my dad had cancer I prayed just as fervently, had the Michigan State campus fellowship I was attending praying, my own home church was praying, and any and all of my relatives who were the type to do so were praying - my dad died.

 

We don't hate what we don't believe in - grasp that if you grasp nothing else.

Wow, I experienced a similar situation. I was so filled with faith that I was certain god would heal someone. I prayed fervently and I was certain, I had 'confirmation' as you say, that she would pull through.

 

I was utterly, utterly stunned when she died. Not so much traumatised, mind you, as shocked that god would give me the peace that told me she would live, and then she didn't. For some reason, at the time it didn't really shake my faith, I just tried to rationalise it. But at the back of my mind, I was deeply troubled by the fact that god said that I could ask and I would receive (and I asked so selflessly, I genuinely wanted her to live for her sake, not for mine) and then he took her.

 

Years later I look back and I'm comforted by the fact that there isn't a malevolent, lying god who pulls stunts like this, telling me things will be okay, and then pulling the rug out from underneath me. I don't need to superimpose superstition over sad reality. I can just grieve when death happens, instead of trying to rationalise it as part of my christian experience.

 

*hugs* I sympathise with you. Christianity just adds another level of helplessness to an already traumatic situation. To lose a parent is one thing, but to add the perception that god has rejected you to that experience must be overwhelming. I am so glad that god doesn't exist.

[OnceConvinced]

I think people are making this about me personally when really it is all about Jesus.

 

It may be about Jesus to you, but we don't believe in Jesus.

 

I am just the vessel that delivered the message, an in-perfect vessel that is changing daily from glory to glory to represent the image of Christ more each day. So if you do not believe me and my story that is one thing...but at least believe His Words and what He says because He is not a liar.

 

Get it through your thick skull. We do not believe that the bible is God's word. Nor do we believe you are his vessel. To us you are deluded person who believes you are God's vessel, yet you have shown yourself to lack the fruits of the spirit and you have shown yourself to be a liar and a fraud. You show no integrity and you have shown that you have no ability to think for yourself, because you need to go to other Christians for your answers.

 

 

Tomorrow is not promised to any of us (and that includes me). Any of us can die tomorrow and how we lived our life on this Earth depends on where we go in the next life.

 

You are right about one thing. Tomorrow is not promised and we should make the most of life now. That is what I am doing and I have no time for religious BS in my life anymore. I wasted too much of my life following a make believe God and serving him whole heartedly. I lament about all the time I wasted, spent praying, studying the word and going to church. Life is not a test, it's all you have. There is no eternity. I have no intention of wasting any more of my precious life in the delusionary world of Christianity.

 

 

 

And what I mean by this is not that we have to be perfect in this life to go to Heaven but just have a relationship with Christ that is real and authentic.

 

I prefer to have a relationship with reality thank you. And relationships with real people, not imaginary friends.

 

 

 

I really was not going to mention this because I do see that there is another thread that has been started by another Christian about this BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

 

I believed I did, just like you believe you are now. But then I got real and realised I was deluded.

 

 

Some here have said that they have NEVER heard the voice of God. I find that strange since it says that "My sheep hear My voice." I hear God's voice all the time on a regular basis. So something is not right here. Perhaps some people here never knew Him personally the way you would know someone if you were in a relationship with them. If that is the case, then those people never knew Him to begin with. That would mean they never de-converted since technically they never knew Him to begin with. That is what brought me back to Him. I remembered our times together and how He would speak to me and comfort me, how He would help me, how He would tell me that He is proud of me and that I am His. I remembered those things and I missed Him and came back to Him.

 

I believed I knew his voice. I had no doubts about certain parts of my life, believing wholeheartedly that I was obeying what God wanted for me. Then one day the voice that had never let me down in the past let me down drastically and I realised that without a doubt it had not been God's voice at all and that all those other times it had just been me. Those voices you hear is just your own subconscious.

 

But before you go trying to paint that as the reason I am no longer a Christian today, don't. There were many many other things that lead me to disbelief. In fact that incident happened several years before I fell from the faith.

 

 

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now.

 

Doesn't it bug you that God would allow people like us to go for so long believing whole-heartedly that we were true Christians who had a relationship with him when we didn't? I for one never once had one Christian tell me I wasn't a true Christian. Not once. You'd think that if I'd been on the wrong path God would have been sending them along and he would have been convicting me. But no, I was convinced I was in a relationship with him and that I was not religious. I was even "blessed" by God by being given positions of great responsibility within the churches I attended. So obviously those church leaders believed I was a true Christian.

 

And guess what, when I left the church, nobody rang me. Not one person. You'd think that God would have sent at least one person to say "Hey, OC, I notice you haven't been to church for a while and God put you on my heart to give you a call." Nope, never happened, because people believed I was rock solid and a "true Christian". I was the one that supported those with the weak faith. Who would have thought that I'd ever be the one in that position myself? Nope, no holy spirit discernment there in anyone. But then that's typical of the church. You're a true Christian until you do something that doesn't line up with their way of thinking.

 

I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread.

 

No one is calling your God a fake or a liar. It is man's idea's about God that we call fake and lies. It's you that we are calling a fake and a liar. It is your ideas about him that we challenge. Not God himself. Please get that clear. For us to call God a fake and a liar we first have to believe in that God.

 

 

I am being accused of never deconverted....

 

Clearly you never did. You still believed. You were a rebellious scamp who'd had enough of God and Christianity, that's all (which I myself can't understand, because I loved God so much and was very happy as a Christian). I'm can quite confidently say I never got angry at God, I never wanted out of Christianity and I had no desire to rebel. That's true whether you believe it or not.

 

but something tells me that probably only a small percentage of people on this messageboard knew Him personally. I will even venture out and say that no one here has known Him in that way

 

You can't have a relationship with something that doesn't exist. But if Christ really was all you claim him to be then we wouldn't be ex-Christians today. The fact that we are shows a severe weakness on the part of your so-called God that he could not get through to us.

 

(except the Christians).

This is very telling. It shows us your mindset. As long as they line up with your beliefs, then they're true Christians. But as soon as they deviate from that then "Hey, you never really knew God".

 

What a crock of shit!

 

Perhaps they prophesied and they were on the ministry team at church and sang in the choir but did not know Him personally. I see that a lot. I see it at my church too. Some Christians do not know Him.

 

And who are you to judge? What makes you so certain you have a relationship with God? Probably the same certainty that those people have. They just don't add up to what you believe a true Christian should be, so you label them as frauds.

 

Although I am not perfect in all my ways, I know I have a relationship with Him.

 

I "knew" that I had a relationship with God too. And so did most of the other people here. The difference is that we realise now that we were deluded. No doubt those other Christians you condemned earlier will also claim they "know" they have a relationship with God.

 

 

I actually have a journal that I write in most days and write my thoughts to Him and write out my prayers. Then when I sense in my spirit that He is saying something back to me and responds, I write that down in that journal. Its a two way street. Who here has that?

 

I'd say most of us did. I certainly did. But now I realise it was all just in my mind. You need to do a little more research into how the human brain works. BTW, I still have those responses when I'm pondering about stuff, but I no longer attribute it to God.

 

 

I have not seen anyone yet which leads me to believe no one.

 

But then you have not been in our shoes and never will. You do not know us and have made no effort to try to understand us. You know nothing of our walks. Once again you presume, based on your own mindsets. And no don't try to tell me that his holy spirit discernment because you have shown us without a doubt you do not have any holy spirit backing you up.

 

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

 

No one can enlighten someone who clearly wishes to remain in their delusion.

[Guest Justyna]

Well as far as actually hearing Gods audible voice, this is true. I am not the only Christian who does so either. I have friends who are just like me and we get together and share what God is telling us and teaching us at the moment. I dont see why that is strange at all. Where I come from that is the norm. Of course I also have some Christians friends who are good people, serve God and do not hear His voice. I find that strange, but do not judge them. I just dont understand why some people do and some people dont. Maybe it has something to do with how close we are to the Lord. The reason I say this is because I started hearing Gods voice on a regular basis when I was 18...(though I did hear it when I was 3 for some reason and remember that like it was yesterday). When I deconverted last year funny enough His voice stopped guiding me. I was not spending time with Him and I was not looking for His guidance. In fact it is safe to say that I DIDNT want to hear His voice and told Him to "Leave me alone!" I was mad. (I look back on that now and realize that must have hurt Him soooo much Well guess what? He did leave me alone, and while away from Him I didnt hear Him. It was not until I came back to Him and repented of this that He started talking to me again. How do you explain that? Surely it is not just my conscious at work or my imaginary friend. Its real. I know Christians who hear from Him this way too. Look in the Bible, it is filled with people who actually heard God speaking to them. Are they all mentally ill? I think not.

 

I really do not understand this at all. Why some Christians hear Him and some dont. I wish I knew but I dont to be honest. Maybe its not for me to understand.

 

Oh and it is hard for me to reply to every single person who posts in this thread. There is only one of me and lots of you guys. I read all the replies, but I am only on here a little bit each day. It would take me forever to reply to each person as each post has a lot of questions for me. I will do my best.

 

Im happy to be a Christian...really am. Sometimes its hard but I am proud to be one. Things like my studies and degrees..yeah that was great but it did nothing for me in the end. That doesnt really interest me as much as God does. Ive traveled to a handful of other countries and even lived abroad in Europe for over a year, but that just didnt do it for me in the end. I really wouldnt want to serve any other God, and I do know that there are other gods, but they are not the Truth. I have a new appreciation for Him that perhaps was not there as much before all this happened to me. I do think He requires a lot out of us though. I will agree to that. He asks for all of us, all the time. It definitely is all-encompassing. I really wouldnt have it any other way though. If its real, shouldnt it be 100% all the time? It does upset me how some Christians dont take God seriously..they just sort of tack Him onto their lives and thats it. They try to squeeze Him into their schedule instead of making their schedule around Him. I question this. I question my own. I see people get married and have kids and God is really not that important to them anymore. I also see people get older and they lose their faith in Him. I can understand somewhat because I faced the same thing last year. I think the times are evil, and it is so much easier to lose your way now then ever before. If you asked me when I was 18 if I ever would be running from Him when I was 28 I would have told you no, no, no..not me. But I did.

 

Today I was driving down the freeway and my car started to pull to the left, then pull to the right. It help doing that and I had to drive 30 minutes to go somewhere, do what I needed to do, then drive 30 minutes back home again. I know that it is not the alignment because I just had new tires put on and so they do that for you automatically. I told a friend about this earlier this week as I noticed that the car was doing that from time to time. He said it is something else....starts with a "s." Well I dont know what he is talking about because I dont speak car-talk. Anyway...today while it was doing that God spoke to me really clearly. He said that this is how life is and that this is how its going to be in my life. That people and things are going to come my way and are going to be pulling me to the left and to the right and all over the place...these things can include family, friends, studies, new theories and doctrines etc.....but He said that I must stay the course and not weavier to the left nor to the right, and to basically resist that pulling. We are faced everyday with options and choices and it is up to us to not pull away and to stay the course. I got that. I told Him yeah I want to stay the course and not go back to my old ways but that I would need His help.

 

I think some things we have to develop discipline in. Believe it or not, I dont always like going to church every Sunday. This may come as a suprise to you all since I love God and all, but its true. But I have to make-up my mind that I am going to go regardless. I think some things you just have to do. Its not that my relationship with Him is robotic, its just that I am human and dont always want to do what is right. Some things just come down to discipline..like I AM going to spend time with God each morning even if it kills me. I have found that when it comes to doing the right thing, it is easier to do the right thing if you keep doing the right thing over and over and over....you train yourself and it gets easier the next time to do the next right thing.

 

Hahah..I am not even sure wher I am going with this post..so I will stop there.

[OnceConvinced]

 

I cant explain some things that happened to me. Here are a couple.

Ok, so we have to assume you are telling the truth here?

 

 

1. I was doing ministry when I was about 20ish and doing outreaches. This one guy came up to me and asked me to pray for him. I did pray for him and then I felt like God was telling me to tell him something about his life. It was something that he said no one knew and he was stunned that I told him. I said Jesus told me, and he believed. How do you explain that since I never met that guy before?

 

Dumb luck or an educated guess. How many times have you been wrong about something like that?

 

 

2. There have been numerous times when my paster (at the time) would tell me things about my life that no one knew. How is that possible? Only God could have told him.

 

Con man? Educated guesses? Tarot card readers do this sort of thing all the time. My previous girlfriend used to be a white witch and explained it all to me. You ask probing questions and you carefully weed out information. Then if you are wrong you quickly change tack and come up with something slightly different.

 

There is also the fact that some humans are able to use parts of their brains no one else can. Seeing as we really know so little about the human brain, who knows what abilities some of us may have. Why assume it to be God? Anyway can't the devil do similar stuff?

 

I can go on forever of more expamples because I have a lot. How do you explain those things? Its God.

 

No, that's an ignorant statement. We here have learnt not to say "Goddidit" just because we are ignorant. We have grown and leaned to think more rationally and logically. There are many things we as humans don't know. Why attribute it to God? The people who wrote the bible used to attribute a lot of things to God (eg, natural disasters, diseases) but now we know better. Perhaps in another 200 years or so we'll understand how it is that some people can know stuff about others that they shouldn't? I see no reason to attribute it to the supernatural. Why are you so gullible?

[OnceConvinced]

 

Someone in this thread pointed out to you that Jesus made a failed prophecy about the end times. YOU asserted that it must be a contextual error, and then you "researched" it until you found what you wanted to see.

 

And for anyone who came in late to this thread, this is how she goes about her research...

 

http://forums.christ...5/printable.htm

 

She couldn't even rely on the holy spirit to inform her of what she needed to know. She didn't even go to the bible itself. Instead she did what most Christians who are unable to think for themselves do... she went to other deluded and clueless Christians for answers that best fitted with her presumptions.

[Vigile]

Maybe it has something to do with how close we are to the Lord.

 

It has to do with schizophrenia.

 

.today while it was doing that God spoke to me really clearly. He said that this is how life is and that this is how its going to be in my life. That people and things are going to come my way and are going to be pulling me to the left and to the right and all over the place

 

Ok, so god takes the time to send you messages through your ill-maintained car yet he can't give this poor child a meal and a safe place to sleep. He probably gets you to the gas station when your needle is on empty too, right?

 

 

Suffer the little children indeed.

[Realist]

Well as far as actually hearing Gods audible voice, this is true. I am not the only Christian who does so either. I have friends who are just like me and we get together and share what God is telling us and teaching us at the moment. I dont see why that is strange at all. Where I come from that is the norm. Of course I also have some Christians friends who are good people, serve God and do not hear His voice. I find that strange, but do not judge them. I just dont understand why some people do and some people dont. Maybe it has something to do with how close we are to the Lord. The reason I say this is because I started hearing Gods voice on a regular basis when I was 18...(though I did hear it when I was 3 for some reason and remember that like it was yesterday). When I deconverted last year funny enough His voice stopped guiding me. I was not spending time with Him and I was not looking for His guidance. In fact it is safe to say that I DIDNT want to hear His voice and told Him to "Leave me alone!" I was mad. (I look back on that now and realize that must have hurt Him soooo much Well guess what? He did leave me alone, and while away from Him I didnt hear Him. It was not until I came back to Him and repented of this that He started talking to me again. How do you explain that? Surely it is not just my conscious at work or my imaginary friend. Its real. I know Christians who hear from Him this way too. Look in the Bible, it is filled with people who actually heard God speaking to them. Are they all mentally ill? I think not.

 

I really do not understand this at all. Why some Christians hear Him and some dont. I wish I knew but I dont to be honest. Maybe its not for me to understand.

 

Oh and it is hard for me to reply to every single person who posts in this thread. There is only one of me and lots of you guys. I read all the replies, but I am only on here a little bit each day. It would take me forever to reply to each person as each post has a lot of questions for me. I will do my best.

 

Im happy to be a Christian...really am. Sometimes its hard but I am proud to be one. Things like my studies and degrees..yeah that was great but it did nothing for me in the end. That doesnt really interest me as much as God does. Ive traveled to a handful of other countries and even lived abroad in Europe for over a year, but that just didnt do it for me in the end. I really wouldnt want to serve any other God, and I do know that there are other gods, but they are not the Truth. I have a new appreciation for Him that perhaps was not there as much before all this happened to me. I do think He requires a lot out of us though. I will agree to that. He asks for all of us, all the time. It definitely is all-encompassing. I really wouldnt have it any other way though. If its real, shouldnt it be 100% all the time? It does upset me how some Christians dont take God seriously..they just sort of tack Him onto their lives and thats it. They try to squeeze Him into their schedule instead of making their schedule around Him. I question this. I question my own. I see people get married and have kids and God is really not that important to them anymore. I also see people get older and they lose their faith in Him. I can understand somewhat because I faced the same thing last year. I think the times are evil, and it is so much easier to lose your way now then ever before. If you asked me when I was 18 if I ever would be running from Him when I was 28 I would have told you no, no, no..not me. But I did.

 

Today I was driving down the freeway and my car started to pull to the left, then pull to the right. It help doing that and I had to drive 30 minutes to go somewhere, do what I needed to do, then drive 30 minutes back home again. I know that it is not the alignment because I just had new tires put on and so they do that for you automatically. I told a friend about this earlier this week as I noticed that the car was doing that from time to time. He said it is something else....starts with a "s." Well I dont know what he is talking about because I dont speak car-talk. Anyway...today while it was doing that God spoke to me really clearly. He said that this is how life is and that this is how its going to be in my life. That people and things are going to come my way and are going to be pulling me to the left and to the right and all over the place...these things can include family, friends, studies, new theories and doctrines etc.....but He said that I must stay the course and not weavier to the left nor to the right, and to basically resist that pulling. We are faced everyday with options and choices and it is up to us to not pull away and to stay the course. I got that. I told Him yeah I want to stay the course and not go back to my old ways but that I would need His help.

 

I think some things we have to develop discipline in. Believe it or not, I dont always like going to church every Sunday. This may come as a suprise to you all since I love God and all, but its true. But I have to make-up my mind that I am going to go regardless. I think some things you just have to do. Its not that my relationship with Him is robotic, its just that I am human and dont always want to do what is right. Some things just come down to discipline..like I AM going to spend time with God each morning even if it kills me. I have found that when it comes to doing the right thing, it is easier to do the right thing if you keep doing the right thing over and over and over....you train yourself and it gets easier the next time to do the next right thing.

 

Hahah..I am not even sure wher I am going with this post..so I will stop there.

....

 

Three things immediately come to mind after reading this!

 

Firstly, we know you have a problem recognising what truth is and have trouble speaking it!

 

Secondly we know you have NO problem believing ANYTHING told to you by another christian!

 

And thirdly .... go get some desperately needed psychological help!

[Guest Justyna]

Heres a wild thought..Im just going to throw it out there and see where it leads.

 

Do you guys who claim to have been Christians before and are now "ex-Christians" think that perhaps the course you are on right now is in fact the very one that Jesus wants you to be on? So like in some strange way you still are Chrisitans just not the going-to-church type of Christians? Like maybe this is the course He intended you to go down, and you never really deconverted just sort of transformed into something else? I dont even know if what I am asking makes any sense..but if anyone can understand where I am going, then feel free to comment.

 

Like even though you classify yourself as "ex-Christians" really you are just on a different wavelenght then before? It does say that God is the potter and we are the clay so He makes us into who He wants us to be...but maybe He has an altogether different plan for you guys? I dont know, that sounds somewhat fishy to me, but I am willing to entertain the thought if not for a moment

[OnceConvinced]

Because if you did, you would understand the profound trauma of losing your faith in god, and you would have sympathy for us, instead of arrogance and accusations of lying. If you were a christian who lost your faith, you would understand this. You wouldn't dismiss it as lying.

 

Amen to that Sister!