Im A Christian Again

[Ouroboros]

 

I cant explain some things that happened to me. Here are a couple.

Ok, so we have to assume you are telling the truth here?

No, we should not. She has already deceived us by proclaiming she would leave and dust of her shoes, and yet the next second, she's back and proselytize more than ever.

[Ouroboros]

Heres a wild thought..Im just going to throw it out there and see where it leads.

 

Do you guys who claim to have been Christians before and are now "ex-Christians" think that perhaps the course you are on right now is in fact the very one that Jesus wants you to be on?

Sure. That is a possibility too. I told other Christians that. And it's up to God, if that's the case, to give me ample evidence for his existence and turn me back. Then it's not your responsibility. You are working against God if you're trying to take us away from the path God has set us on. Right?

 

So like in some strange way you still are Chrisitans just not the going-to-church type of Christians?

Most of us are the do-not-believe-God-exists-or-that-Jesus-ever-was-the-son-of-God Christians.

 

Like maybe this is the course He intended you to go down, and you never really deconverted just sort of transformed into something else? I dont even know if what I am asking makes any sense..but if anyone can understand where I am going, then feel free to comment.

"De-convert" means to be "transformed-into." So you're saying we're not transformed, but transformed, and that we're not de-converted but de-converted instead.

 

Like even though you classify yourself as "ex-Christians" really you are just on a different wavelenght then before? It does say that God is the potter and we are the clay so He makes us into who He wants us to be...but maybe He has an altogether different plan for you guys? I dont know, that sounds somewhat fishy to me, but I am willing to entertain the thought if not for a moment

It also says that God intentionally make some pots for destruction. Maybe God already decided that he wanted to make us only for the purpose to send us to Hell? It's Biblical. He did it with Pharaoh.

[agnosticator]

He never lies, He is incapable of lying, and His Word is true 100%. He is coming back

 

" Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father."

 

--John 14.12

 

I have yet to see a christian do mightier works than Jesus supposedly did.

 

 

" And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

 

"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst." (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

 

" Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours." (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

 

Many of us asked and did not receive. We had faith and did not doubt.

[Shyone]

Oh, ye of little faith.

 

Jam 4:14 Whereas ye know not what [shall be] on the morrow. For what [is] your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

 

Today I was driving down the freeway and my car started to pull to the left, then pull to the right. It help doing that and I had to drive 30 minutes to go somewhere, do what I needed to do, then drive 30 minutes back home again. I know that it is not the alignment because I just had new tires put on and so they do that for you automatically. I told a friend about this earlier this week as I noticed that the car was doing that from time to time. He said it is something else....starts with a "s." Well I dont know what he is talking about because I dont speak car-talk. Anyway...today while it was doing that God spoke to me really clearly. He said that this is how life is and that this is how its going to be in my life. That people and things are going to come my way and are going to be pulling me to the left and to the right and all over the place...these things can include family, friends, studies, new theories and doctrines etc.....but He said that I must stay the course and not weavier to the left nor to the right, and to basically resist that pulling. We are faced everyday with options and choices and it is up to us to not pull away and to stay the course. I got that. I told Him yeah I want to stay the course and not go back to my old ways but that I would need His help.

 

Justyna, you haven't enough faith. Do you wear your seatbelt? Buy insurance? Plan for a worldly future? Is marriage a consideration, or children?

 

2Cr 1:17 When I planned this, did I do it lightly? Or do I make my plans in a worldly manner so that in the same breath I say, "Yes, yes" and "No, no"?

 

Have you followed the specific instructions in the bible about how to prepare for Jesus' second coming (which you are convinced will happen during your lifetime)?

 

Mat 19:21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Mar 10:21 Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

 

Start with your computer.

 

Mar 14:5 It could have been sold for more than a year's wages and the money given to the poor." And they rebuked her harshly.

 

The Lord has spoken to you, and you have rejected His Word.

[Mr. Neil]

Do you guys who claim to have been Christians before and are now "ex-Christians" think that perhaps the course you are on right now is in fact the very one that Jesus wants you to be on? So like in some strange way you still are Chrisitans just not the going-to-church type of Christians? Like maybe this is the course He intended you to go down, and you never really deconverted just sort of transformed into something else? I dont even know if what I am asking makes any sense..but if anyone can understand where I am going, then feel free to comment.

I said to you that if you claim to have deconverted, then you can't say that the other people here weren't former Christians. You don't dare say that they weren't Christians, because then you have to question your own deconversion. That would imply that you weren't a Christians the first time around, which would immediately call into question whether or not you're actually a Christian now. It would be opening Pandora's Box. You'd have to admit the possibility that you were then and are now deluded.

 

On the flip side, if you DO grant that everyone here is a former Christian, then you've got another problem. What is this relationship with Christ that makes it so easy for people, including yourself, to deny that it even happened? What happened during those ten months, Justyna? Did you just assume that your relationship with Christ was a figment of your imagination? If so, then why not now? In this latter scenario, you're basically defeating any notion of "once a Christian, always a Christian". And that's a HUGE problem for someone claiming to have a personal relationship. How convincing is this personal relationship that you allegedly have that would allow you to conclude, even briefly, that it's just a figment of your imagination?

 

And as I expected, you've embraced the absurd. You're so committed to the idea that nobody deconverts from Christianity that you've made it so that people still are Christians, even if they don't claim to be. So, are you saying that they're delusional in believing that there is no Jesus? Or are you accusing them of lying? Either way, you open Pandora's Box, and we can immediately ask the same questions of you.

 

How do YOU know that you have a relationship with Jesus? How was it that you were able to deny it for ten months? Was your relationship with him so similar to any other figment of your imagination that you could easily dismiss it as such? If so, then what does that say about this alleged relationship you have with Jesus?

 

You can't escape the elephant in the room, Justyna. The only escape available to you is to embrace the one thing that you're trying desperately to avoid: Uncertainty of your own faith.

 

 

I dont know Valk...why doesnt God just take away blindness? Heres a generic answer: Maybe because it brings Him glory...possibly.

Or maybe it's because he doesn't exist. That's the funny thing about God. He's invisible, silent, and doesn't do anything. Just like everything else that doesn't exist.

 

Besides, you're warping this perception of God to an absurd degree. So determined are you to believe in a just God that you're willing to justify all the suffering the world just to say that you believe God is a good and just God. To anyone who isn't a Christian, this is ludicrous. You're giving praise to someone who, by your own description, sounds more and more like an abusive parent.

 

It would be easier for me to believe in a god who doesn't give a crap about human life.

 

 

But in all seriousness..I know people here dont understand how such a loving God can send people to hell right? But He is not sending you to hell. Not at all. He said that if you believe in Jesus you will have everlasting life. Now I know some here have said that they CANNOT believe in Him again..okay I really dont want to get into another whirlwind discussion on how you CAN CHOOSE HIM...but cant you all just stir yourselfs up in the Spirit and believe again? I mean seriously you guys acts like you are not in control of your own thoughts, actions and behaviors when in reality you are. You love to talk about theories and concepts of how you can think freely and accept that..so think freely and choose Christ even now.

Oh, Jesus Christ!

 

Are you so in control of YOUR thoughts that you can just freely accept things that you know to be false? NO?! Then you already have the answer. Belief is not an act of will. Either you're convinced of something, or you aren't.

 

These ex-Christians can no more believe that Jesus really rose from the dead than they could believe that the sun revolves around the Earth. It's a violation of everything they've come to know. Read some textual criticism of the Bible, and you will come to know why nobody here is going to be moved by what you're saying.

 

 

I cant remember in what Psalm it was that King David fell away from God when he murdered and commited adultery etc....well we know how depressed he was and how he himself had to stir himself up again. He also went through a dark time (Similar to Mother Teresa).

Yeah, we all know about that time that Mother Teresa went on a rape and homicide spree.

 

 

Its not uncommon. King David sang praised to God even when he didnt want to..he "got back on the horse again" so to speak. When you guys were Christians you probably made vows to God that you would serve Him and love Him for the rest of your life. Where are those vows now? In the gutter? Just get fired up again! Start somewhere. Start by reading one verse a day and praising Him for what He has done for you. Start now..plant that seed..it will grow. Its not too late. Its never too late. If you draw near to Him, He will draw near to you. Take a baby step. You wont feel anything, but it will be something in the right direction. Then the ball will start rolling again. This is a hard walk..I know, believe me. But dont get discouraged.

You have woefully misdiagnosed the problem here. It's not that people are discouraged by the gospel. It's that they've come to know that it's false. Again, you're trying to pretend that there aren't people who'd love to believe in Jesus but don't for a variety of reasons that you're not even coming close to addressing.

 

 

You only have one life to live..make it count and go the way that you know deep deep deep deep in your heart is right. Do you give up on your marriage just because the other person is not doing what you thought they would do? NO! Of course not...you work on it.

What the fuck!? YES!!!! You absolutely should give up on a marriage that is wrong for you. Why waste the one life you got being miserable? Especially abusive ones. You don't stick with it. You get the hell out of there. What a poor analogy.

 

 

I encourage you to try again. This time could be different...you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. We are in a battle for your soul.

Bullhonky! They absolutely do have something to lose. Life is too precious to waste on the worship of invisible beings who don't exist.

 

I'm going to skip most of the next paragraph, because you're just repeating the same appeal to consequences over and over.

 

 

Dont be quitters. Quitters are losers..quitters couldnt take it anymore when the going got tough...they chickend out because it got a little hard for them.

Quitters are losers? Should we tell that to former gang members? Or people who've given up smoking?

 

Stop throwing PSA speak at people.

[Phanta]

It also says that God intentionally make some pots for destruction. Maybe God already decided that he wanted to make us only for the purpose to send us to Hell? It's Biblical. He did it with Pharaoh.

 

That makes it hard to believe that every soul is precious to God, hm?

 

P

[par4dcourse]

Any voice or idea that "inspirationally" appears in your head is you. Listen close, it'll tell you exactly what you've been taught to believe, because it's you. It's also you that decides how to live your life, not some magical being. Come back to earth, we miss you.

[Mr. Neil]

It also says that God intentionally make some pots for destruction. Maybe God already decided that he wanted to make us only for the purpose to send us to Hell? It's Biblical. He did it with Pharaoh.

That makes it hard to believe that every soul is precious to God, hm?

And what about spontaneous abortions? It's something like 20% of all fetuses spontaneously abort. Every sperm may be sacred, but a zygote sure ain't worth a damn.

 

God has aborted more fetuses than every abortion clinic combined.

[agnosticator]

It's people who believe like this, that scares the hell out of me. This type of thinking, beit Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or ideological, demonizes others outside of the group. It is responsible for much suffering and death. Unbelievers are looked down upon, devalued, and smugly dismissed as unworthy. So it doesn't matter how they are treated, because they're going to hell anyway. True belief belittles morality every time.

[Realist]

It's people who believe like this, that scares the hell out of me. This type of thinking, beit Muslim, Jewish, Christian, or ideological, demonizes others outside of the group. It is responsible for much suffering and death. Unbelievers are looked down upon, devalued, and smugly dismissed as unworthy. So it doesn't matter how they are treated, because they're going to hell anyway. True belief belittles morality every time.

 

... yes, TOTALLY in agreement with you! Unfortunately in the Western World christianity has had a sacrosanct position to the point many christians and non-christians do not see the problems of fundamentalist christian dogma! We are quick to see some of the evils of the muslim extremists and fundie christians are often the ones feeding that fervour!

Where the problem becomes dangerous to the extreme is at governmental level. One for instance would have NO problem getting fairly general opinion approval in the Western World that President Ahmadinejad of Iran is an evil of dangerous capabilities this world would be better rid of!

What us Westerners often are less inclined to realise is that fundie christians George Bush and even more worrying Sarah Palin were and are a massive threat to world peace! And what is more, as the most powerful person on the planet, that person does already have nuclear weaponry at their disposal!

[Crazy Donna]

Crazy-Donna,

 

OR maybe the reason He as God has not wiped all of humanity away forever and turned us back to dust where we came from is because He IS LOVE and DOES love us immensely

 

This just shows how human I am: If I was God, and I had to hear the constant whining of my people and the sins they keep commiting even after I told them not to a hundred times....I would probably move on and find a new kind of creation that was not so stubborn. That is how I would deal with the world in my fleshy sense if I was God. But see, God has never done that to us. He promised to never leave us, and creation continues to pro-create and exist. Wow..I would be a horrible "God." Im glad He is better than this.

 

But he IS going to wipe all of humanity away forever! Everyone except his precious christians. The rejects (the majority of his human creation) will spend their eternities in hell, in unimaginable torture, which he was only able to endure for three days.

 

Just because he hasn't done it yet doesn't make him loving. Just like just because an abusive husband hasn't shot his wife in the head at point blank range YET doesn't mean he's loving.

 

You have no empathy for me, or anyone else on this site. YOu pretend you do because you want to turn us into christians, but if you continue to insist that we are lying, that is a key indication that you do not take us seriously. If you don't value our testimonies, call us liars, and insist that your worldview is the only valid one, then you don't belong here.

 

I don't have kids, but I know that if god was a parent, it wouldn't matter whether his 'children' made mistakes. He wouldn't care. But obviously it seems to, according to your doctrine. This is yet another feature of your malevolent god. He apparently pretends to be all loving and compassionate, but he is preoccupied with sins he engineered his creation to commit. That is not the act of a loving god. Your god is self contradictory, which is only natural, since he is a hodgepodge of characters from the iron age and before. Your god is an invention, that is why he is not consistent. He doesn't exist, despite what you 'feel'. That is why nobody has been able to prove he exists.

[Realist]

Let's just try and make this a little bit simpler for Justyna why some of us here are no longer fearful of her mythological christian god!

 

Justyna, you are right .... many on here DID once believe in what you do! The reason is PRETTY simple!

 

Let's run 2 near identical scenarios! This is FACT Justyna, whether you wish to believe it or not! (I know you totally already know the truth ... my efforts in discussing further in here are not for Justyna's benefit ... they are for anyone who is reading this post who has problems with christianity!)

 

As a person who was indoctrinated from birth the Santa Claus belief and the christian belief are 2 so similar scenarios! Both you are fed at a very gullible age and naturally parents have EXTREME influence over their children. As a child one idolizes their parents. This is a natural process! Because of this, what children are taught by their parents IS FACT! Christianity as I was taught quickly became the ONLY form of religious belief that was true! The details of MY form of indoctrination CLEARLY stick with me to this day! For instance .... "Once saved always saved"; "speaking in tongues is not a sign of the holy spirit but of the devil"; "works had no effect at all getting one into heaven" etc etc. Even NOW in my mid fifties if one asked me what a "TRUE" christian believer by the biblical position should be I would use THOSE INDOCTRINATED guidelines as a measure! (You TOO have been indoctrinated with similar, whether you wish to be honest and admit it or not!)

 

This is where the Santa comparison is SO similar! BOTH these mythologies rely on a reward or non-reward system to work! (You WILL get presents if you are good ... or you WONT if you are bad ... or heaven or hell!)

Because of this "wanting to believe" and the brainwash involved, both allow you to believe things that just ARE NOT possible! For instance as a believer in Santa even as a child one must believe IMPOSSIBLE things to make it work! Santa MUST be able to get down your chimney even though FACT would show he could not! Santa also has reindeer that pull his sleigh through the sky even though FACT would show this was NOT possible. See the issue is, the mind is in a state of WANTING to believe, so any difficult questions naturally get shelved in the back of ones mind and the story still stays as FACT.

 

This is EXACTLY the same way christianity finds its way into a child through indoctrination! This is also why impossibilities such as talking snakes, people living to hundreds of years of age, people getting raised from the dead, etc etc can get taken as FACT, when we should know for a FACT they are NOT possible. The issue is you WANT to believe so somehow these problems are washed away with blurry thinking the same as the Santa issues!

 

The difference between the two, is at some stage the Santa myth is weaned out of you!

The problem with christianity is that this NEVER happens! You are also left with the EXCESSIVE and VILENESS of its message which involves INFINITE punishment for FINITE "crimes." That is its hook!!

Naturally this can be NEAR impossible to remove!

 

If one wishes to rebel in later years, taste the world as it is, the problem of the belief will STILL not go away! It just continues to sit in the back of ones mind!

 

The issue that WILL have a positive start to its permanent removal is when the individuals THEMSELVES start to question the roots of the belief! YOU HAVE TO STEP OUTSIDE THE SQUARE! This will lead to the questioning of the bible to its roots! Of course christians are NEVER allowed to question the authority of the bible! It was god's inspired word!

You will then start to notice its MANY problems! You will come to understand the Noah's flood story DID Not EVER happen as per the bibilcal account! The creation story did NOT happen as per the biblical account. This leads from one thing to the next. One starts reading on the VILE origins of this faith! How so much was just stolen from earlier and pagan religions! Its vileness into the Dark Ages! The millions that have been killed in its name! How it has hindered mankinds advancement in areas such as medical research! One can read up on fascinating matters such as Neuroscience and its relationship to belief! All of a sudden things just become SOO much clearer, the scales will start falling from ones eyes! It will ONLY happen though through SERIOUS input on the individual's part ... and the reading of material OUTSIDE the pre-sanctioned "safe" christian square! This may likely take years to become fully ingrained just as did the indoctrination in the first place!

 

So no, Justyna, you cannot throw accusations of "turn coating" on brainwashed infants in EXACTLY the same way you cannot throw at a child for giving up the santa belief! In fact I do not really even care anymore if I was EVER a true christian! Hell or heaven do NOT exist! Once it becomes FACT you were brainwashed with "santa" type mythology, you will not give a shit anymore!

 

 

And by the way Justyna, this is here for other people's benefits, NOT yours! I for one FIRMLY believe you are NOT capable of being de-converted as you are! You have to start challenging things FIRST YOURSELF before there is ever ANY chance of that happening! You are purely here to preach ... you never had ANY interest in deconversion apart from re-belling or back sliding!

 

So see, that is why YOUR god CANNOT speak to us! We KNOW he was a man-made creation! Like santa he is NOT there!

[OnceConvinced]

 

I don't have kids, but I know that if god was a parent, it wouldn't matter whether his 'children' made mistakes. He wouldn't care. But obviously it seems to, according to your doctrine.

 

You're right. I have kids myself and I love them to death. When they do bad things I may punish them, but I would never slaughter them or have them tortured for all eternity. I certainly wouldn't require someone innocent to take their punishment for them, because that is unjust. And often I can even forgive them without punishing them or have them atone. YES! Imagine that! Forgiving someone without strings attached. The bible God can't do that. I do not require love in return, I do not require worship from them and I don't require them to beg me for forgiveness.

 

Not only that, but even if they chose to disown me and have nothing more to do with me, if they said to me "You are not my father", I would still continue to love them and would still want what's best for them. I would not decide to give up on them. I would not make excuses abou them building a wall between them and me with their rebellious behavior. I would not blame them for my inability to communicate with them. I would not have them slaughtered or tortured for all eternity. That either makes me more loving, caring and forgiving than the bible God, or it proves that the bible God is not existant. One or the other.

 

Perhaps once Justyna has children herself she may be able to understand.

[Crazy Donna]

But in all seriousness..I know people here dont understand how such a loving God can send people to hell right? But He is not sending you to hell. Not at all. He said that if you believe in Jesus you will have everlasting life. Now I know some here have said that they CANNOT believe in Him again..okay I really dont want to get into another whirlwind discussion on how you CAN CHOOSE HIM...but cant you all just stir yourselfs up in the Spirit and believe again? I mean seriously you guys acts like you are not in control of your own thoughts, actions and behaviors when in reality you are. You love to talk about theories and concepts of how you can think freely and accept that..so think freely and choose Christ even now.

You are STILL not listening. I TRIED to 'stir myself up in the spirit'. I TRIED that. For a long time.

 

I didn't just walk away from your god. I tried harder to believe than I have tried to do anything else in my entire life. Do not tell me I am lying about this. If you knew me at all, you would know that this is the truth.

 

You just can't accept the fact that (1) your god doesn't love us at all and wants us to burn in hell or (2) that god doesn't exist. So you keep coming here and insulting us by calling us liars, telling us that we didn't try hard enough to believe, or that we are kidding ourselves, or that we are simply turning our backs to god.

 

Just think about this for a moment, seriously. If you're as well educated as you're pretending to be (I have a postgrad degree, I'm pretty well educated) you would be able to think about the hypothetical situation where someone doesn't believe in god because (1) god rejects them or (2) god doesn't exist. This isn't fucking rocket science. Eight year olds can put themselves in someone elses' shoes and do this.

 

Rule out "We CHOSE not to believe" as an explanation, and what do you have left? Becuase that is is what we are telling you. We did not CHOOSE. WE DID NOT CHOOSE. There was no choice about it, unlike in your fake deconversion. Did you try my suggestion in a previous post about trying to believe in Santa Claus? Just please try it, for a moment, and you'll see what I mean. Once you don't believe in something, nothing will make you change your mind except evidence. You simply can't choose what to believe.

 

Once you ignore the 'choice' argument, which we are telling you is a lie, you're left with (1) god rejects us or (2) god doesn't exist in the first place. That is what we went through, because it is certainly no choice. We lost our faith unwillingly, then had to deal with the explanations (1) god rejects us or (2) god doesn't exist. If god rejects us, he's a liar. He does not keep his promises. But if god doesn't exist, then all the shitty things that happen to us are not our fault, they are just the result of a random world. We don't have to invent a whole extra layer of explanation. Stuff just happens. No god.

 

When I realised that, I had the first good night's sleep I had ever had in my life.

 

You choose not to understand us, Justyna, because if you did, you would have to question your faith. Your faith is too weak to survive that questioning, and you know it. So either stop baiting us with accusations that we are lying, or go down the path to understanding what we are going through. There are other christians on this site, like Kath, who might still be christians, but at least have the respect for us to value our own life experiences. Be like her. She is a good role model, because she has empathy, and you do not.

 

If your god is all he is cracked up to be, you can simply ask him for more faith when your questioning leads you to doubts. But you won't, because deep down you know he doesn't exist to give you that faith. That is why you are so shit scared of contemplating the idea that we might be telling the truth about our experiences with christianity.

[mwc]

Well I decided to leave the church and God when I first joined this site about a year ago or so. I wanted to be free from everything, I wanted to think of myself, I wanted to live the way I saw it fit. Well I did. I really didnt go off the rails or anything, but I stopped going to church for a while, stopped reading the Word and just did what I wanted. I used bad words, I saw bad movies, I said what I wanted and did not aplogize. It wasa all good in the beginning. I was determined to "break-free." But after a while I felt empty, I felt like my life had no meaning, and I longed for God again. I gave it a long time. I tried to be in a relationship, I tried to focus on my studies, I tried to go out and socialize and it all didnt do anything for me. I was wondering, all over the place. I wasted my time and resources. I was in want of something deeper, and I felt weary from searching all the day.

 

God never let me go. Through it all, He has been here just waiting for me to come back. I started goin to church again, reading the Word again, and spending quality time with Him. It was what I needed. I never felt better. My life is not perfect but I am starting to get happy again. I dont understand why I had to go through that, but I did. I was so determined to leave God, but He didnt let me.

I've read this thread. I can't imagine why your "relationship" didn't work out. Why your "studies" apparently suffered. Maybe it was the "bad words," the "bad movies" or that you failed to "apologize." Whatever the cause, please, go be with "god." You yearned for him. He for you. Birds of a feather you. Intellectual and sexual equals. You two deserve one another. Waste not another word on our deaf ears and be with your true love. We simply cannot understand what it is you have my dear Juliet.

 

mwc

[Seeking]

Well as far as actually hearing Gods audible voice, this is true. I am not the only Christian who does so either. I have friends who are just like me and we get together and share what God is telling us and teaching us at the moment. I dont see why that is strange at all. Where I come from that is the norm. Of course I also have some Christians friends who are good people, serve God and do not hear His voice. I find that strange, but do not judge them. I just dont understand why some people do and some people dont. Maybe it has something to do with how close we are to the Lord. (...) Surely it is not just my conscious at work or my imaginary friend. Its real. I know Christians who hear from Him this way too. Look in the Bible, it is filled with people who actually heard God speaking to them. Are they all mentally ill? I think not.

 

Consider this theologian's comment about God:

 

 

 

“I ask Him something and supplicate Him, and He answers in words full of power. If this should happen a thousand times, He does not fail to answer. In His words…He makes it clear that He alone is the one who should be called God. He accepts prayers and intimates their acceptance. He resolves great difficulties, and through repeated supplications, revives those who are sick unto death. He discloses all these designs in advance through His word.... He proves that He is the God of heaven and earth.”

 

 

 

 

This is a comment from a Muslim imam. He’s talking about his god, not your god. Could you tell? It sure sounds like Allah answers the prayers of his followers. Does that mean he is real? Should you believe in Allah? If not, why not?

[agnosticator]

What us Westerners often are less inclined to realise is that fundie christians George Bush and even more worrying Sarah Palin were and are a massive threat to world peace! And what is more, as the most powerful person on the planet, that person does already have nuclear weaponry at their disposal!

 

Right! I am worried that Palin might become president. She would continue the ignorant, arrogant, and naive reasonings for invading Iraq. Now it's Afganistan, which is way too late to catch Bin Laden, so why are we there? If we truly understood Islam and the way the people in the Middle East think, we would realize they are more tribal than democratic. It's like going there to convert them to Christianity. That would fly like a lead balloon. And Palin seems naive enough to go on a Christian Crusade.

[Seeking]

Heres a wild thought..Im just going to throw it out there and see where it leads.

 

Do you guys who claim to have been Christians before and are now "ex-Christians" think that perhaps the course you are on right now is in fact the very one that Jesus wants you to be on? So like in some strange way you still are Chrisitans just not the going-to-church type of Christians? Like maybe this is the course He intended you to go down, and you never really deconverted just sort of transformed into something else? I dont even know if what I am asking makes any sense..but if anyone can understand where I am going, then feel free to comment.

 

Like even though you classify yourself as "ex-Christians" really you are just on a different wavelenght then before? It does say that God is the potter and we are the clay so He makes us into who He wants us to be...but maybe He has an altogether different plan for you guys? I dont know, that sounds somewhat fishy to me, but I am willing to entertain the thought if not for a moment

 

Here's what you can't seem to comprehend: After 35 years of being a Christian, of believing in and trusting in god, I have come to the realization - against my will! - that your god does not exist! In my understanding of truth, he exists equally as little as Zeus or Athena or Krishna or Allah.

 

Think of it this way:

 

Do you, Justyna, think that perhaps the course you are on right now is in fact the very one that Thor wants you to be on? So like in some strange way you still are a Thorist, just not the going-to-church type of Thorist?

 

How does that sit with you? Be honest. What's your gut response to that? You probably dismiss it quickly, thinking, "Of course I'm not on some path predestined by Thor - that's ridiculous!! Thor isn't real!!!"

 

That's how silly your words about your god sound to me!

[Seeking]

Most people here were Christians at one point in their life. (There are some that are from other religions etc). So at one point, something attracted you to Him...something sparked your interest to Jesus.

 

I was brainwashed into the Jesus cult from the moment I was born. I had NO CHOICE in the matter as a child. My entire perception of the world was skewed by this religion's faulty theology and desperate desire to wish away the reality of death. I viewed the world through the rose-colored apologists' glasses that were effectively welded to my face as a small child who TRUSTED her parents to tell her the truth. Yet they, too, had been brainwashed as children. And so had their parents. And theirs. I come from a very long line of Christians who dared not question what they'd been told.

 

So no, nothing attracted me to your deity. He was the "reality" that was instilled in me when I was too young to question it. It was once I began to see the world as it truly is that the indoctrination began to crack.

[Seeking]

I challenge each and everyone of you that come into this thread and comment (and those lurking too) to finish what you started with Him. You do not overcome your doubts of whether He is real by trying to get the answers you want to hear. You overcome your doubts by prayer and by surrendering them to Him and asking Him to take away your doubts and for Him to make it easier for you to believe in HIm again by building a bridge that leads to Him.

Don't you understand? Most of us have no doubts of whether he is real. We know he isn't!

 

I don't expect you'll even acknowledge my experience, but I did "surrender" my doubts to him and ask him to take them away! In fact, when I was in the midst of a crisis of faith, I prayed a very sincere, desperate, heart-felt prayer. I said (and I wrote it down in my journal, so yes, I know this is what I prayed), "God, I am having such a hard time believing that you are real. I have neither seen nor felt evidence of you in my life. I am going to give the Bible another try. If you are there, please help me understand it the way you intended it to be understood."

 

The result? I started in Genesis, and by the time I got to the book of Judges, I realized (realized, not "chose to believe"!) that god doesn't exist, the Bible isn't true, there is no holy spirit, Jesus didn't rise from the dead, etc. It's all a bit of make believe and wishful thinking.

 

So that's what "asking Him to take away your doubts and for Him to make it easier for you to believe in HIm again" did for me!

[Astreja]

Well as far as actually hearing Gods audible voice, this is true.

Oh, I have no doubt that you heard *a* voice. I say this because I, too, have heard an audible voice.

 

It wasn't the voice of your god, however. It was the voice of a character in a book, a character whom I admired and continue to admire because of his ability to solve problems and confront his own fears. I heard the audible voice in a moment of extreme fear and stress, when My abusive ex-spouse had Me cornered in a room and was threatening to murder My best friend and then kill himself. The voice that I heard told me in no uncertain terms to "Get... out!"

 

I did get out, that very night. That was ten years ago. I believe to this day that if I had not listened, I would not have survived to the morning.

 

I also believe, Justyna, that it is your own subconscious mind manufacturing "God's audible voice" to guide you.

 

It was not until I came back to Him and repented of this that He started talking to me again. How do you explain that? Surely it is not just my conscious at work or my imaginary friend.

I think it is just your subconscious, and there is a very simple explanation. When you fell away, I suspect you thought you didn't deserve to, or simply couldn't, talk with your divine friend. When you returned to the fold, that inhibition went away.

 

Look in the Bible, it is filled with people who actually heard God speaking to them. Are they all mentally ill? I think not.

They could be mentally ill... Or they could simply be storybook characters who heard what the author told them to hear.

 

But in all seriousness..I know people here dont understand how such a loving God can send people to hell right? But He is not sending you to hell. Not at all. He said that if you believe in Jesus you will have everlasting life. Now I know some here have said that they CANNOT believe in Him again..okay I really dont want to get into another whirlwind discussion on how you CAN CHOOSE HIM...but cant you all just stir yourselfs up in the Spirit and believe again?

Not without lying to ourselves -- And lying to yourself is just about the worst thing you can do to yourself psychologically. If you refuse to confront your own inauthenticity, your life is simply not your own to live.

 

I simply cannot bring Myself to love or respect an entity that would send even one thinking, feeling being to hell. My stance on this is *not* open to negotiation.

 

You might also want to read My recent critique of that "We send ourselves to hell" nonsense: Hell is an Unattended Stove?

 

You only have one life to live..make it count and go the way that you know deep deep deep deep in your heart is right.

That is one of the reasons I'm an Ex-Christian, Justyna. My chosen mission is to help free humanity from religious delusion, so that fewer and fewer children will cry themselves to sleep because some abusive pr!ck frightened them with tales of hell. I intend to stay this course to My very last breath.

[Yalta]

Unless Justyna leaves for good, I can imagine the rest of the conversation:

 

Justyna: "You still actually believe in Jesus. You just choose not to follow him."

Us: "What part of we no longer believe Jesus is real don't you understand?"

Justyna's brain: "DOES NOT COMPUTE. THE BIBLE SAYS THIS CAN'T HAPPEN. THEREFORE IT ISN'T."

Justyna: "You chose not to believe Jesus is real. Choose to believe in him again."

Us: "We didn't chose not to believe, we just came to the logical conclusion that he's not real. We tried really hard to believe, but found no proof."

Justyna's brain: "DOES NOT COMPUTE. THE BIBLE SAYS THIS CAN'T HAPPEN. THEREFORE IT ISN'T."

(repeat endless loop)

 

Come on Justyna, try to answer us from a different perspective. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we genuinely not longer believe that the God of the Christian Bible exists and that Jesus was his son. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that most of us genuinely wanted to believe it was true, but were unable to convince ourselves. And that we don't believe anything the Bible says is true (hence, quoting it means nothing to us), and therefore you'll have to use actual facts and evidence to convince us.

 

Can you convince us from that angle? Fear tactics like "what if you're wrong? You're going to hell then!" do not work on us because we do not believe hell exists. Bible quotes don't work on us because we no longer believe the Bible is true. So, knowing that, how do you convince us to believe in Christianity again?

 

Use your brain and come up with good responses, Justyna. Good luck.

[OnceConvinced]

Of course she could always rely on the holy spirit... NOT

[Darklady]

Justya cannot stop preaching and its getting tedious. This isn't acheving anything.

[OnceConvinced]

Ah, but I bet many lurkers have learnt a lot and many have been deterred from Christianity because of her.