Im A Christian Again

[Moxie]

Justyna -

 

I was one who knew him as you claim to know him. But you must be honest. It's not that you know him. It's that you have created a being from your imagination, and created an imaginary relationship. When you say that he answers your prayers, it's really you imagining that. According to your religion, God answers either "yes", "no" or "wait". So no matter what happens, god answers your prayers, and you choose to perceive life's situations as such. It's a win-win for you and your imaginary friend.

[Guest Justyna]

Ziva-Denise,

 

If you did know Him in a personal way..why did you leave Him? Why did you stop the relationship with Him? I am curious. I mean I did that too, so I can relate but then I came back. How long have you been a non-Christian? Maybe oneday you will be back with Him if you knew Him that way. Its possible. For me it took only about a year to come back. But that can vary..maybe it will take you longer. I pray it does not.

 

When I pray to God its a little more specific. I get more specific answers such as go to such an such school and study this subject. Its a little bit more than just "yes" "no" or "wait."

[Paganesque]

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now. I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread. Even though there were times when I was mad at Him and questioned my faith...I KNEW Him personally and KNEW that He was not those things. I do agree that just plain old religion is bad. I think it is about the relationship with Him. A relationship is two way. I would talk to Him, and He would answer my prayers and respond. Who here has had that cause it seems not a lot of people had. It seems like a lot of people were into Christianity for a while at some point but Jesus was not their Personal Savior. He was not in their hearts. He was not in their thoughts and He was not in their spirits. I find that strange.

 

 

I knew "Him." He was my everything, I was a bride of Christ. I even spoke in tongues. I was a missionary in India. (this is all true, mind you)

But we got a divorce, I couldn't take the abuse anymore. I did a background check on him and apparently he has been slaughtering babies and other ex-wives for centuries. Basically anyone who got in his way EXCEPT for the devil, which doesn't make much sense. Actually, I had done the background check before we got together, but I was so in love with him and his promises that I just let him slide.

He was always asking too much from me. I was tired of being treated like a servant and feeling guilty for being a human. The whole reason I went to India was because that country was low on other christians...they were sinning and at risk for being sent to hell because they didn't know Jesus and instead put their beliefs in Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism. It's when I got back that I realized "How the hell do I know that THEY are wrong and I'm right? What if it's the other way around? How can millions of people be wrong about one religion, and millions of other be right about another?" Because, my dear, no one is right. Including me. None of us know SHIT and we probably never will.

[Phanta]

I realized that was not really clearly reflective of how I see it. It's not that it comes and goes out of you, but rather it is always already. It is like the sky. It is our states within it that vary, but it is in us and us in it, like clouds passing overhead in sky. What I really mean to say as that you manifest it to degrees. But you cannot produce it, create it, manufacture. It is not a state, it IS. And how much or how less you are a state of being with it is known through its manifestation in you and through you.

 

This is pretty much my sense of things. When I am in "a state of being with it", I sense it happening and I seem channel it outward. People seem to respond very strongly and very well when I am with it and near them, which is an excellent bonus!

 

My life's desire is to always be moving to behavior that aligns me moreso with that goodness, and yet I'm so often discordant with it. I hate that. Why does it have to be this way? So frustrating! My limitations seem inherent to existing in a human body in this physical world. I'm really struggling with that fact at the moment. I want to be in that other state all the time, and yet I can't. Why?

 

It's easy to see how a religion starts.

 

Phanta

 

I totally identify with this struggle. I all too often feel like the cub attacking the scratching posts, and not enough like the calm Queen of the Jungle. I think you can see it in my posts here.

The arrogance of people like Justyna really gets to me, because I know they wear blinkers, I know they pretend compassion in their silly threats, and yet, it makes me just want to scratch their eyes out (figuratively)!

 

Maybe I'm channeling too much Ezili Danto? I don't know.

 

Love is better, and even Danto loves (in her way), but I don't feel like I manifest it as often as I should. And some people make it VERY difficult! And I'm just a short, and short tempered, spitfire Gulf gal.

 

You're spunky and firey, girl!

 

Yeah...some people are difficult for me, too. With most people I can just walk away, or try to work on my part in it (if I have some responsibility in the difficulty). When I insist on participating in discussion that rankles me when nothing external is preventing me from leaving, that's always interesting to me. What's my motivation? Generally, there's something internal I'm trying to work out.

 

That said, something Deva suggested ages ago about righteous anger has been knocking around in my head. I know she is onto something, I just haven't made sense of it out in my head yet, how it all fits in.

 

We're all works in progress.

 

Phanta

[Vigile]

Ziva-Denise,

 

If you did know Him in a personal way..why did you leave Him? Why did you stop the relationship with Him? I am curious. I mean I did that too, so I can relate but then I came back. How long have you been a non-Christian? Maybe oneday you will be back with Him if you knew Him that way. Its possible. For me it took only about a year to come back. But that can vary..maybe it will take you longer. I pray it does not.

 

When I pray to God its a little more specific. I get more specific answers such as go to such an such school and study this subject. Its a little bit more than just "yes" "no" or "wait."

 

I can answer that. Because it's a one-way relationship all created in one's own head.

 

You are trying to teach people that have been xians longer than you've been alive. We've all wept the bitter tears. We've all felt the joy. We've all longed to grow in our relationship. We've all felt the pangs for the lost. I promise you, you have nothing to teach us or offer. And, unlike you, we've all seen the man behind the curtain and no one can tell us anymore he's not there.

 

After reading your posts, I'd have to add that unlike you, most of us had a bit more human empathy than you do. Probably a lot more. I pity you for your world view and your lack of understanding. Life could be so much richer than it seems to be for you.

[Antlerman]

Who here has heard Him speak their name? I remember I was in church a long time ago and the overwhelming feeling I felt when I heard His voice for the firt time, and I heard Him say my name for the first time! I was overjoyed for I knew that He knew who I was...and since then I have had a relationship with Him. Have I messed up along the way? Oh yes, most definitely so! Am I the first to admit that I made mistakes? Yes I am.

 

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

Hi there. You rang? I have. Yet, you so far aren't talking with me. Maybe this will peak your curiosity enough to have a conversation with me: Read this from a few years ago here:

 

I fully believe you experienced that. I've experienced something very similar. A point in my life of great crisis; an event that took me to the edge of death; a cry of desperation for help out into the utter darkness; white light suddenly appearing everywhere, in an instant driving everything else out that tormented me; a complete cessation of time; infinite peace, infinite love, infinite knowledge, infinite awareness, infinite power, infinite grace and compassion, all in only a sliver of an inconceivable infinity that lay beyond that; and then a gentle voice of infinite compassion and awareness speaking only my name, conveying my life's story before my eyes in an instant of utter timelessness with the knowledge spoken without words to my mind that I was never alone, that was loved beyond all knowledge. Shall I continue?

 

Rising from this vision I felt all the pain of my heart come gushing out of the deepest part of my soul in a torrent of tears, being both afraid and amazed at what had just happened. Two days later, I began what began my lifelong search for understanding of this. Being raised in a Christian culture, seeking out a minister seemed the most appropriate beginning. I openly shared my experience with wonder and puzzlement in my voice, to the stolid looks of the minister who gave little response. The following day I spoke to another, this time a Catholic priest, who likewise sat with a blank stare and his offering what I learned later to be the typical Catholic response of asking if I had anything to confess.

 

I left feeling discouraged, lost, and confused, yet with this knowledge in my heart. Suddenly, without any warning or indication, the entire Universe opened to me before my eyes, as if a great curtain opened in an instant. I suddenly saw for the first time in my life - color. The world was full of color, with vibrant greens and blues everywhere! The World was full of light and love and color, and permeated everything as a sort of living joy that surrounded me, moved through me, and began flowing out of the most unimaginably deepest part of my being out into the world in a sort of song, as can only be described as utter, living love.

 

I saw people walking by me, and rather than feeling darkness and shame in my heart and averting my eyes away as in my past, instead I felt pure love and joy. No thoughts of darkness were in me anywhere at that moment, and I felt truly alive for the first time in my life.

 

From this point began the life-long quest of mine that I stumbled about to build upon, again making the mistake of looking for answers from ministers. Two years later, and no further towards finding answers I happened upon a very charismatic Biblical literalist whose convictions of truth inspired me. I was caught into the snare, and found myself convinced somehow that all this was somehow God calling me to serve him in the ministry. I enrolled in Bible College and graduated top of my class with a degree in theology, all the while being ripped apart inside by the conflict of what was in my heart, and what was being portrayed about God.

 

You can read the rest of my story I posted here two years ago if you are interested: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=6730&hl=

 

The point is, to this day I still embrace what I experienced. I still accept it as real. I however do not believe it says anything about a particular theology about a particular God from a particular religion. I'm planning to share my thoughts on what this means to me in another thread I'm having with Ruby in the Arena forum here called, "Evidence of the Heart". So I'll save my thoughts for there, as they are going to get long - very long. (be patient as my time is limited these days for awhile)

 

P.S. In my testimony link I included above, I skipped over the first part of what I mentioned here. I didn't feel comfortable at that time to mention it.

 

 

Now that I have your attention, please read the first 7 pages of this discussion here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/34759-the-love-of-jesus/ And then I invite you to discuss with me why you feel Christianity alone has the corner on God, and that I am going to hell? I look forward to your sincere effort from a heart of Truth.

[Rev R]

That said, something Deva suggested ages ago about righteous anger has been knocking around in my head. I know she is onto something, I just haven't made sense of it out in my head yet, how it all fits in.

 

intent and how the anger manifests as action

[Vigile]

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now. I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread. Even though there were times when I was mad at Him and questioned my faith...I KNEW Him personally and KNEW that He was not those things. I do agree that just plain old religion is bad. I think it is about the relationship with Him. A relationship is two way. I would talk to Him, and He would answer my prayers and respond. Who here has had that cause it seems not a lot of people had. It seems like a lot of people were into Christianity for a while at some point but Jesus was not their Personal Savior. He was not in their hearts. He was not in their thoughts and He was not in their spirits. I find that strange.

 

 

I knew "Him." He was my everything, I was a bride of Christ. I even spoke in tongues. I was a missionary in India. (this is all true, mind you)

But we got a divorce, I couldn't take the abuse anymore. I did a background check on him and apparently he has been slaughtering babies and other ex-wives for centuries. Basically anyone who got in his way EXCEPT for the devil, which doesn't make much sense. Actually, I had done the background check before we got together, but I was so in love with him and his promises that I just let him slide.

He was always asking too much from me. I was tired of being treated like a servant and feeling guilty for being a human. The whole reason I went to India was because that country was low on other christians...they were sinning and at risk for being sent to hell because they didn't know Jesus and instead put their beliefs in Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism. It's when I got back that I realized "How the hell do I know that THEY are wrong and I'm right? What if it's the other way around? How can millions of people be wrong about one religion, and millions of other be right about another?" Because, my dear, no one is right. Including me. None of us know SHIT and we probably never will.

 

I like your story. Thanks.

[TheUnknown]

 

If you main purpose for coming on this site was to be a "witness" and to "convert" someone to your way of thinking, then I for one will say that you have NOT succeeded in your endeavor, although I've seen other christians come on here with some semblance of understanding, sympathy and empathy for what other poster's have posted, I've seen nothing in your posts that indicate this

 

I'll be quite frank and honest, you have absolutely infuriated and disgusted me and I'm sure I'm not alone with this sentiment, in each and every post you make you imply that humanity is worthless scum worthy of damnation, yet you claim there is this all loving god waiting to receive us with open arm if we embrace your way of thinking, as has been pointed out to you on many occasions, your god is the one who put us in this predicament in the first place, we did not CHOOSE to become part of this battle between your god and satan

 

As has been pointed out to you before, you are claiming that the people on here are either liars or deceived by satan when they have explicitly stated on more than one occasion that they did NOT CHOOSE to lose their faith, as none of what the other posters have said is penetrating and getting through to you, I don't expect my post will either

 

Keep yourself on your pedestal of self righteousness and delude yourself with the thought that one day you will be in the position you envision yourself to be in, waving your self righteous finger at us, whilst we burn in your gods hell, saying I told you so, I told you so

[Phanta]

...something tells me that probably only a small percentage of people on this messageboard knew Him personally.

 

It's your mind weaving tales to reduce uncomfortable cognitive dissonance about people like Hans existing.

 

Phanta

[Guest Justyna]

Okay so 2 people so far have said that they knew Him in a personal way. Now here is another question. Who here has actually heard His actual voice? Like I said it says that "My sheep hear My voice."

 

Also there is a difference between knowing about Him....and knowing Him. I knew a lot about Him from age 12 to 18. I read, I fellowshiped and prayed. Then something clicked when I was 18 and He started to speak to me directly. So you can "know" about Him....or you really really KNOW Him.

 

I cant explain some things that happened to me. Here are a couple.

 

1. I was doing ministry when I was about 20ish and doing outreaches. This one guy came up to me and asked me to pray for him. I did pray for him and then I felt like God was telling me to tell him something about his life. It was something that he said no one knew and he was stunned that I told him. I said Jesus told me, and he believed. How do you explain that since I never met that guy before?

 

2. There have been numerous times when my paster (at the time) would tell me things about my life that no one knew. How is that possible? Only God could have told him.

 

I can go on forever of more expamples because I have a lot. How do you explain those things? Its God.

[Paganesque]

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him. He makes Himself alvailable to all. Thats sort of how I see it now. I never remember calling God a fake or a liar or the various other mean things that people have called Him in this thread. Even though there were times when I was mad at Him and questioned my faith...I KNEW Him personally and KNEW that He was not those things. I do agree that just plain old religion is bad. I think it is about the relationship with Him. A relationship is two way. I would talk to Him, and He would answer my prayers and respond. Who here has had that cause it seems not a lot of people had. It seems like a lot of people were into Christianity for a while at some point but Jesus was not their Personal Savior. He was not in their hearts. He was not in their thoughts and He was not in their spirits. I find that strange.

 

 

I knew "Him." He was my everything, I was a bride of Christ. I even spoke in tongues. I was a missionary in India. (this is all true, mind you)

But we got a divorce, I couldn't take the abuse anymore. I did a background check on him and apparently he has been slaughtering babies and other ex-wives for centuries. Basically anyone who got in his way EXCEPT for the devil, which doesn't make much sense. Actually, I had done the background check before we got together, but I was so in love with him and his promises that I just let him slide.

He was always asking too much from me. I was tired of being treated like a servant and feeling guilty for being a human. The whole reason I went to India was because that country was low on other christians...they were sinning and at risk for being sent to hell because they didn't know Jesus and instead put their beliefs in Hinduism, Islam and Buddhism. It's when I got back that I realized "How the hell do I know that THEY are wrong and I'm right? What if it's the other way around? How can millions of people be wrong about one religion, and millions of other be right about another?" Because, my dear, no one is right. Including me. None of us know SHIT and we probably never will.

 

I like your story. Thanks.

 

Thanks Vigile.

[Phanta]

That said, something Deva suggested ages ago about righteous anger has been knocking around in my head. I know she is onto something, I just haven't made sense of it out in my head yet, how it all fits in.

 

intent and how the anger manifests as action

 

Ok.

 

I'm really struggling.

[Deva]

I can go on forever of more expamples because I have a lot. How do you explain those things? Its God.

 

Its being gullible.

 

—Synonyms

credulous, trusting, naive, innocent, simple, green.

[Moxie]

Ziva-Denise,

 

If you did know Him in a personal way..why did you leave Him? Why did you stop the relationship with Him? I am curious. I mean I did that too, so I can relate but then I came back. How long have you been a non-Christian? Maybe oneday you will be back with Him if you knew Him that way. Its possible. For me it took only about a year to come back. But that can vary..maybe it will take you longer. I pray it does not.

 

When I pray to God its a little more specific. I get more specific answers such as go to such an such school and study this subject. Its a little bit more than just "yes" "no" or "wait."

 

 

I left him because after much experience in church and after historical research, I realised that he was created by humans and for humans. I longed for the relationships I observed among other people in church, but they mistreated me and excluded me from their little cliques. I got tired of christians telling me, "If no one else loves you, remember god loves you and that's what matters." They told me that so that they would not have to befriend me. I wanted relationships with REAL humans, not an imaginary friend. I met a wonderful person (a non-christian) after I left christianity. She and I have been friends for almost three years. Additionally, I easily made friends with non-christians because they just let me be me. They did not prejudge me like the church people did. I'm not saying that ALL non-christians are friendly. But in my experience, I received more love and respect from non-christians than any god could ever give.

 

I will not return to any god. I prefer to live in the moment, and interact with the world I DO know. I will live a fulfilling life here on earth, because this is where I am now, and this is what I know. I will not waste time imagining something that is not real.

 

 

Your "answers" to prayers are not from god. They are your personal decisions. You choose which school to go to, and which subject(s) to study. You choose to incorporate your imagination into the decision-making process by convincing yourself that god is guiding you. The proper term for this phenomenon is "autosuggestion".

If the outcome of your choices is beneficial to your well-being, then it was a smart choice on your part, not something that god did. If the outcome of your choices is detrimental to your well-being, then it was not a smart choice on your part, and it's something from which you can learn.

 

And, you claim to "know" him. Do you not see the arrogance of your claim?

[Deva]

I read, I fellowshiped and prayed. Then something clicked when I was 18 and He started to speak to me directly. So you can "know" about Him....or you really really KNOW Him.

 

Justyna - do you mean to say you heard the audible voice of God, outloud, like a radio or something?

[Ouroboros]

I really was not going to mention this because I do see that there is another thread that has been started by another Christian about this BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

That's a very good question.

 

I gave my life to Jesus when I was 7 years old. I learned to speak in tongues when I was 11 or 12. I got my first Bible at 12, and read the whole Bible all way through in 2 years. And I read the Bible, completely from start to end about three times in my life, and I read the New Testament alone about 10 times. I even read it in multiple translations and languages. I memorized 200 bible verses in Bible school. I prayed every day. I went to Bible school and mission trips. I worked at church several times a week. I worked at a "christian" company with only Christian employees. I knocked on doors and evangelized the city... and much, much, much more...

 

Never once did God speak to me.

 

How come? I don't know. Why? I wanted him to. I asked God to make his presence known. I felt a lot of overwhelming emotions in church when we had sung for two, three hours, just like you would feel after a couple of hours of chanting to Krishna or Allah. Basically, nothing but mass-hypnosis. But those feelings were fleeting.

 

So at the end of it all, I wanted to hear God speak to me, for 30 years, but it never happened.

 

Is that somehow my fault? You mean, blaming the victim is the correct response? You mean that I should blame myself for not trying hard enough? Losing my house and almost losing my family isn't good enough sacrifice to convince God that I really, really, super-seriously really wanted to hear his voice?

 

I can only conclude one thing. I have no history of mental illness. Neither does it run in my family. The only way I can explain that you hear God's voice and I didn't is that there's something wrong with your neural pathways. You hear voices. It's not good. You need treatments before those voices tell you to do something dangerous. M'kay?

[Phanta]

1. I was doing ministry when I was about 20ish and doing outreaches. This one guy came up to me and asked me to pray for him. I did pray for him and then I felt like God was telling me to tell him something about his life. It was something that he said no one knew and he was stunned that I told him. I said Jesus told me, and he believed. How do you explain that since I never met that guy before?

 

2. There have been numerous times when my paster (at the time) would tell me things about my life that no one knew. How is that possible? Only God could have told him.

 

I can often tell upon meeting someone casually that they are the offspring of an alcoholic parent. I never talk to Jesus, nor have I "felt God". How is that possible?

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

I read, I fellowshiped and prayed. Then something clicked when I was 18 and He started to speak to me directly. So you can "know" about Him....or you really really KNOW Him.

 

Justyna - do you mean to say you heard the audible voice of God, outloud, like a radio or something?

I believe she's suffering auditory hallucinations, just like Van Gogh. (Poor guy)

[Vigile]

Like I said it says that "My sheep hear My voice."

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I said, you have nothing to add that we don't know, or haven't experienced. If you're hearing literal, outloud voices though, you might want to get a check up.

 

I'll add that I could have written what you wrote above once myself. That said, it's not nearly as profound as you or your pastor or the former I make/made it out to be. In general your post is just a self affirmation speech. Even you don't believe it's such a profound experience deep down where your honesty is hiding. Reality is, the religious "relationship" is over ninety percent guilt trip. Oh Jesus, I'm so sorry for that bad thought Jesus. Jesus, why did I do that? I promise I won't do it again Jesus. Help me to repent Jesus. Thank you thank you thank you for forgiving this awful wretch that I am. You're so glorious. You died for horrible, horrible me. I can never, never repay.

 

Then five percent of the time you are listening to worship music and getting goosebumps from the heart strings that stuff is designed to tug.

 

My advice is read some good literature, go to the opera, have a baby, learn something new. Any and all of these things can be and usually is more profound than the imaginary relationship you have with your pastor's conscience. (you should probably jump up while you read this last paragraph, otherwise it will go over your head)

[Ouroboros]

1. I was doing ministry when I was about 20ish and doing outreaches. This one guy came up to me and asked me to pray for him. I did pray for him and then I felt like God was telling me to tell him something about his life. It was something that he said no one knew and he was stunned that I told him. I said Jesus told me, and he believed. How do you explain that since I never met that guy before?

 

2. There have been numerous times when my paster (at the time) would tell me things about my life that no one knew. How is that possible? Only God could have told him.

 

I can often tell upon meeting someone casually that they are the offspring of an alcoholic parent. I never talk to Jesus, nor have I "felt God". How is that possible?

 

Phanta

You probably know this already, but I'm responding to your question anyway for the purpose of other readers.

 

The "feeling" is the subconscious responding to learned signals. There are plenty of experiments showing that we are able to analyze and come to conclusions in our subconscious before we become conscious about it.

 

Did Justyna claim she had some degree in psychology? I could be remembering it wrong. It sounds strange she doesn't know about these things.

[Mr. Neil]

I think people are making this about me personally when really it is all about Jesus. I am just the vessel that delivered the message, an in-perfect vessel that is changing daily from glory to glory to represent the image of Christ more each day. So if you do not believe me and my story that is one thing...but at least believe His Words and what He says because He is not a liar.

Would you quit ducking and weaving?! This response is pathetic.

 

Someone in this thread pointed out to you that Jesus made a failed prophecy about the end times. YOU asserted that it must be a contextual error, and then you "researched" it until you found what you wanted to see. Someone then directed criticism at YOU, because it was YOUR claim that the passages were taken out of context, which was WRONG.

 

You're trying to shuffle back and forth between yourself and Jesus. You apparently believe that you can just hide behind Jesus to protect yourself from people who are trying to explain to you why your reasoning is flawed.

 

If you are so imperfect that you cannot even articulate the correct meaning behind the text, then why do you think that you're in any better of a position to understand them than we are? Because the holy spirit is within you? Reread this thread, because the holy spirit isn't doing you much good.

 

Come on! I know you're not stupid. You know better than this. You're smarter than this.

 

 

I really was not going to mention this because I do see that there is another thread that has been started by another Christian about this BUT.....if the people on this messageboard claimed to be a Christian for 5, 10, 20, 30 years, then why did they not KNOW Him personally in an intimate way?

What do you want people to say, Justyna? Are you fishing for an answer? Do you want people to just come right out and say that you're delusional for thinking that you can have a personal relationship with an invisible person?

 

I'm not going to be the one to tell you that, but I will say that the personal relationship doctrine wasn't even originally part of the Christian movement. It's supported nowhere in the Bible. This is a much later church invention. So, if you are having a relationship with someone invisible, why do you think that it's Jesus?

 

 

Some here have said that they have NEVER heard the voice of God. I find that strange since it says that "My sheep hear My voice." I hear God's voice all the time on a regular basis. So something is not right here. Perhaps some people here never knew Him personally the way you would know someone if you were in a relationship with them. If that is the case, then those people never knew Him to begin with. That would mean they never de-converted since technically they never knew Him to begin with. That is what brought me back to Him. I remembered our times together and how He would speak to me and comfort me, how He would help me, how He would tell me that He is proud of me and that I am His. I remembered those things and I missed Him and came back to Him.

So, are you saying then that you are the only person on planet Earth that is allowed to deconvert?

 

By this logic, you couldn't have deconverted, because that would imply that you didn't know Jesus personally, either. You can't have it both ways, Justyna. Either you're wrong about the people who claim to have deconverted on this site, or you cannot claim to have deconverted yourself.

 

Either that, or you have to face up to the possibility that the relationship you had prior to your deconversion was a false one. And if that's the case, how do you know now that you have a relationship with Jesus?

 

If you're going to deliver such a sweeping and condescending appraisal of each and every former Christian on this board, then you need to aim some of that back at yourself. Otherwise, you're just as transparent as every other apologist who's ever been on this board.

 

 

So perhaps some people here did not ever know Him. Maybe they were so caught up in church activities and "practicing religion" that they never took the time to know Him.

Some of us didn't go to church EVER, and life went on just fine. From the perspective of an outsider, Christianity never looked any less silly than any other religion which makes similar claims.

 

 

I am being accused of never deconverted....but something tells me that probably only a small percentage of people on this messageboard knew Him personally.

Some people are saying that, but I'm not one of them. I just want to know how you reconcile this, because it doesn't make any sense. If you deconverted, then how can you claim to have had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ at any point prior to your deconversion. By your own logic, that's not possible.

 

You either have to admit that you didn't deconvert or that you weren't actually a Christian the first time around. And both of these carry implications that are going to be very problematic for your position.

 

 

Something is not right here. Perhaps someone can enlighten me on this because its not adding up to me.

Something INDEED doesn't add up. I'm afraid that you're the one who has some explaining to do.

[OnceConvinced]

Well I did look up that scripture today and read the full chapter, and as I suspected it was taken out of context.

 

In Matt 16:28 obviously Jesus cannot be referring to His Second coming because He states in other places that He did not know that timing! So what are the real possibilities of His meaning for "the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom".

 

First and most likely, IMO, it is the Transfiguration because it occurs the very next week as recorded in Matt 17. Certainly the Resurrection and Ascension with its attendant 40 days of the glorified Christ on earth is a prime candidate. Finally, Jesus may be referring to the Holy Spirit coming at Pentecost or even the rapid spread of the early church following that time. So I believe this a great example where one must use common sense and reason not to jump to conclusions by misinterpreting a single word, such as "coming", and then throw the entire Bible out the window because of one's personal bias against Christianity.

Wow! You speculate wildly and end on an ad hominem. I can play that game, too. I can call you biased for ignoring the plane meaning of the text. You come from the perspective that the Bible must be right, completely canonical, and inerrant, so you determined IN ADVANCE that the person who brought this to your attention MUST be taking it out of context. You come up with a kneejerk rebuttal and ignore the obvious problems with it.

 

 

It's quite clear to me that it is Justyna's buddies (not her because she couldn't even be bothered studying the bible for herself) are the ones taking it out of context. They need to bring in other scriptures to alter the meaning of the words which are quite clear at face value. Not only that, but by comparing 2000 years to eternity, not only is Justyna trying to perform a mathematical impossibility, she once again takes it out of context. If she were to study the rest of the bible she would see that periods of centuries and melliniums are quite clearly expressed as long times, definitely not short times. It is obvious to any one with sound mind that the attempt to compare 2000 to eternity is a desperate attempt to make biblical prophecies fit with the modern day.

 

Sorry, Justyna, but it is you and your ignorant Christian friends who are taking scripture out of context.

[OnceConvinced]

 

Yeah, I agree with both of you.

It's always nice when we see eye to eye.

 

I'm actually impressed by just how much unity there is on this message board. We do agree on a lot of things. You don't get that on Christian message boards. There's never any unity there, they all disagree with each other. Surprise surprise. That's what you get when you follow an ancient religious book that's not black and whilte. At least with us, all we need to rely on is reality. That's the same for everyone.

[florduh]

According to Christian mythology, you are one of God's elect or you are not. According to reality, belief is not a choice. On this point, the two agree.