I Repent

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Fuck it, I'm done pretending. I don't believe it's even possible that there's not a creator. Personal or impersonal, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, or Zeus, there has to be a creator. I'm not an atheist. I never will be. I never can be. Trying to become one would be lying to myself, and going against what I know to be true. As far as evolution goes, I wasn't there to see, so I don't know. If there was some higher power causing it, then sure, I can buy that. But without one? No way.

 

The honest truth is, I'm just a rebel who doesn't like the the way that I see things. I want to stop believing. I'm not a real deconvert.

 

There are problems with the Bible, Christianity, that I can't answer, and no one else can either. Some of it reeks of being man-made. But there are other things about it that... I don't know. There are problems with the religion and problems without it. I'm not saying that I know deep down that Christianity is true, because that would be a stretch. I don't have any real evidence to say that's the case. I really don't know what I believe about Christianity. Most of the reasons I still hang on to it is because of emotional reasons and the fear factor of not being one. All I know is, I know there's a creator, even if I don't know what or who exactly it is.

[MagickMonkey]

For fuck's sake, check into a mental health clinic. How many months/years will you continue to do nothing about your treatable condition? Maybe not getting help is part of the fun of being miserable. You're like a guy with a broken leg who refuses get a cast put on it so he can indefinitely limp around in public and get sympathy. He identifies and defines himself as a cripple, but it doesn't have to be that way. It just gets oddly comfortable.

 

I'm going to try to be completely transparent and say that I think you're right. A small part of me likes it. Most of me hates it with a passion and wants to fight it, yet that small part that likes it will not let go. I can't explain why I like it, but it might have something to do with it giving me the fuel that I need to fight. That feeling is something that I don't normally have, and it feels good. Which may be why I only find hope in hopelessness.

 

Even with that said, I don't like mental clinics. That would not work. If I told anyone that I needed to be in one, they would probably laugh. Nobody knows the extent of my condition. Most don't even know I have a condition.

 

I don't like meds, because they often mask the real problem, they have side effects, and they take too long to work, if they even work at all. Then if/when they don't, you have to go through that all over again with another pill.

 

I don't like talking to professionals because I don't know how to tell them what's wrong with me. I don't know how to answer the questions they ask, and I don't understand myself well enough to tell them anything. Besides that, unless you find a really good one, their patients are only patients to them, not real people with real problems. You make the appointment, they listen to you running your mouth under a certain time limit, they give you a pill, they get paid. Then it's over. Sometimes, the things they tell a person can fuck them up worse than they were in the first place. I don't like the way it works. I like talking to real people who care, not people with some license who get paid to listen to you run your mouth. I don't trust just anybody.

 

I was going to suggest reading (at least while you're checking out books) Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. That helped me when I was learning to find meaning in a world where meaning was no longer a given. But seeing some kind of therapist or checking into a clinic would be a lot more useful immediately.

 

Would you say I should get that one first?

 

Shop arround. Ask for recommendations. Maybe there's a category under craigs list or something were you can ask people in your area for recommendations. I am not that familiar with these issues, but I bet you can find a therapist who will agree not to force drugs on you.

[violentlygraceful]

If you're convinced that there's a creator, be a deist. No problem with that, particularly if it makes you more comfortable with yourself. It also keeps you away from the stranglehold of organized religion, and allows you to study and observe them objectively.

[Guest Valk0010]

Fuck it, I'm done pretending. I don't believe it's even possible that there's not a creator. Personal or impersonal, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, or Zeus, there has to be a creator. I'm not an atheist. I never will be. I never can be. Trying to become one would be lying to myself, and going against what I know to be true. As far as evolution goes, I wasn't there to see, so I don't know. If there was some higher power causing it, then sure, I can buy that. But without one? No way.

 

The honest truth is, I'm just a rebel who doesn't like the the way that I see things. I want to stop believing. I'm not a real deconvert.

 

There are problems with the Bible, Christianity, that I can't answer, and no one else can either. Some of it reeks of being man-made. But there are other things about it that... I don't know. There are problems with the religion and problems without it. I'm not saying that I know deep down that Christianity is true, because that would be a stretch. I don't have any real evidence to say that's the case. I really don't know what I believe about Christianity. Most of the reasons I still hang on to it is because of emotional reasons and the fear factor of not being one. All I know is, I know there's a creator, even if I don't know what or who exactly it is.

Well here is a idea, look up beliefs about a creator that make sense to you, and if those beliefs truly make sense, it would x out christian, for example, you can't really be a deist or a Hindu and be a christian in any real way at the same time.

[MagickMonkey]

Fuck it, I'm done pretending. I don't believe it's even possible that there's not a creator. Personal or impersonal, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, or Zeus, there has to be a creator. I'm not an atheist. I never will be. I never can be. Trying to become one would be lying to myself, and going against what I know to be true. As far as evolution goes, I wasn't there to see, so I don't know. If there was some higher power causing it, then sure, I can buy that. But without one? No way.

 

The honest truth is, I'm just a rebel who doesn't like the the way that I see things. I want to stop believing. I'm not a real deconvert.

 

There are problems with the Bible, Christianity, that I can't answer, and no one else can either. Some of it reeks of being man-made. But there are other things about it that... I don't know. There are problems with the religion and problems without it. I'm not saying that I know deep down that Christianity is true, because that would be a stretch. I don't have any real evidence to say that's the case. I really don't know what I believe about Christianity. Most of the reasons I still hang on to it is because of emotional reasons and the fear factor of not being one. All I know is, I know there's a creator, even if I don't know what or who exactly it is.

 

You certainly have no obligation to be an atheist. You do have an obligation to yourself to acknowledge the truth as best as you can see it from the evidence before you. If that leaves you believing that there is a god, that's fine. Just don't lie to yourself. Most importantly, get help from your depression. I think it would actually be better for you to reverse your deconversion than to be suicidal or to lead a miserable life. Regardless of what you end up believing or disbelieving, GET HELP!!! You might not like the idea of seeing a therapist. I'm sure cancer patients do not like chemotherapy. You need it anyway.

[nightcomeson]

For fuck's sake, check into a mental health clinic. How many months/years will you continue to do nothing about your treatable condition? Maybe not getting help is part of the fun of being miserable. You're like a guy with a broken leg who refuses get a cast put on it so he can indefinitely limp around in public and get sympathy. He identifies and defines himself as a cripple, but it doesn't have to be that way. It just gets oddly comfortable.

 

I'm going to try to be completely transparent and say that I think you're right. A small part of me likes it. Most of me hates it with a passion and wants to fight it, yet that small part that likes it will not let go. I can't explain why I like it, but it might have something to do with it giving me the fuel that I need to fight. That feeling is something that I don't normally have, and it feels good. Which may be why I only find hope in hopelessness.

 

Even with that said, I don't like mental clinics. That would not work. If I told anyone that I needed to be in one, they would probably laugh. Nobody knows the extent of my condition. Most don't even know I have a condition.

 

I don't like meds, because they often mask the real problem, they have side effects, and they take too long to work, if they even work at all. Then if/when they don't, you have to go through that all over again with another pill.

 

I don't like talking to professionals because I don't know how to tell them what's wrong with me. I don't know how to answer the questions they ask, and I don't understand myself well enough to tell them anything. Besides that, unless you find a really good one, their patients are only patients to them, not real people with real problems. You make the appointment, they listen to you running your mouth under a certain time limit, they give you a pill, they get paid. Then it's over. Sometimes, the things they tell a person can fuck them up worse than they were in the first place. I don't like the way it works. I like talking to real people who care, not people with some license who get paid to listen to you run your mouth. I don't trust just anybody.

 

I was going to suggest reading (at least while you're checking out books) Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. That helped me when I was learning to find meaning in a world where meaning was no longer a given. But seeing some kind of therapist or checking into a clinic would be a lot more useful immediately.

 

Would you say I should get that one first?

 

Replying to both parts here...

 

Although I feel MSFM would be useful and would provide much of the same material that therapists--at least those with training in cognitive therapy--would give you, if it came down to which to do first I'd still recommend a professional.

 

I'm saying this on the tail end of an eight-month stint in which my therapist and I dealt with a number of unresolved issues surrounding my deconversion and my relationships - there is a reason they are called professionals. If they have a degree, they have years of experience with people from all walks of life. They have tools they can use to help you get your thoughts in order and open up. And they are working because they are interested in people and seeing them get well; the ones that aren't won't be in the field for too much longer. I definitely do not deny the human connection is important, and if they're not invested in you on a personal as well as a professional level, it's not worth either your time or theirs.

 

My therapist and I actually got along very well, though a good part of that was researching their styles and training beforehand to get an idea about whether we'd mesh. To that end, there are tools like Psychology Today's therapist guide that can provide information and ratings about workers in your geographic area. As well, many therapists have free initial sessions so you can see if working with them would actually be beneficial. All this to say: you don't have to work with anyone you can't get along with. And if you find someone with whom you can get along and who is actively into you, that's going to go a far way towards improving your situation.

 

I can't force you to do anything, but I do encourage you to at least see what's available for you. For all I know, Frankl's book could be more useful than a therapist for you. Still, if it's between one or the other, I'd want you to do something to help yourself.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Shop arround. Ask for recommendations. Maybe there's a category under craigs list or something were you can ask people in your area for recommendations. I am not that familiar with these issues, but I bet you can find a therapist who will agree not to force drugs on you.

 

I wish there was someone I knew in person that happened to be a psychiatrist or something similar, I feel like talking to someone like that outside of a doctors office would be more beneficial.

 

If you're convinced that there's a creator, be a deist. No problem with that, particularly if it makes you more comfortable with yourself. It also keeps you away from the stranglehold of organized religion, and allows you to study and observe them objectively.

 

Deism sounds like wishful thinking to me. Then again, maybe that's just because in my mind, any thing or idea that sounds appealing = wrong.

 

Well here is a idea, look up beliefs about a creator that make sense to you, and if those beliefs truly make sense, it would x out christian, for example, you can't really be a deist or a Hindu and be a christian in any real way at the same time.

 

Yeah, that could do some good. But at the same time, it seems like any beliefs or gods I'm actually able to find and read about would have a strong chance of being man-made. Christian version included. Men's made up ideas about gods won't benefit much. I think that any real creator in my sense of understanding would not be possible to know or understand.

 

You certainly have no obligation to be an atheist. You do have an obligation to yourself to acknowledge the truth as best as you can see it from the evidence before you. If that leaves you believing that there is a god, that's fine. Just don't lie to yourself. Most importantly, get help from your depression. I think it would actually be better for you to reverse your deconversion than to be suicidal or to lead a miserable life. Regardless of what you end up believing or disbelieving, GET HELP!!! You might not like the idea of seeing a therapist. I'm sure cancer patients do not like chemotherapy. You need it anyway.

 

Replying to the bolded text, I honestly believe I would be more miserable and suicidal if I DIDN'T deconvert. Deconversion would lead to peace more than staying religious would, but I'm having a hard time deconverting, and my motives in doing so are not pure. If I'm trying to deconvert because I want to, and because I don't like my religion, well.... What does that say about me? Nothing good.

 

Replying to both parts here...

 

Although I feel MSFM would be useful and would provide much of the same material that therapists--at least those with training in cognitive therapy--would give you, if it came down to which to do first I'd still recommend a professional.

 

I'm saying this on the tail end of an eight-month stint in which my therapist and I dealt with a number of unresolved issues surrounding my deconversion and my relationships - there is a reason they are called professionals. If they have a degree, they have years of experience with people from all walks of life. They have tools they can use to help you get your thoughts in order and open up. And they are working because they are interested in people and seeing them get well; the ones that aren't won't be in the field for too much longer. I definitely do not deny the human connection is important, and if they're not invested in you on a personal as well as a professional level, it's not worth either your time or theirs.

 

My therapist and I actually got along very well, though a good part of that was researching their styles and training beforehand to get an idea about whether we'd mesh. To that end, there are tools like Psychology Today's therapist guide that can provide information and ratings about workers in your geographic area. As well, many therapists have free initial sessions so you can see if working with them would actually be beneficial. All this to say: you don't have to work with anyone you can't get along with. And if you find someone with whom you can get along and who is actively into you, that's going to go a far way towards improving your situation.

 

I can't force you to do anything, but I do encourage you to at least see what's available for you. For all I know, Frankl's book could be more useful than a therapist for you. Still, if it's between one or the other, I'd want you to do something to help yourself.

 

I don't know, I just know that something in me doesn't.... I don't know. Something in me just says "no, that's not the answer, avoid that, it won't work" when it comes to seeing a doctor.

[Guest Valk0010]

Yeah, that could do some good. But at the same time, it seems like any beliefs or gods I'm actually able to find and read about would have a strong chance of being man-made. Christian version included. Men's made up ideas about gods won't benefit much. I think that any real creator in my sense of understanding would not be possible to know or understand.

That's okay, searching and believing in different belief systems at different times in your life is okay, its a personal evolution so to speak. Also they might benefit in the short term, and benefit even just for growth sake. The bold section is classic agnosticism as far as my understanding of agnosticism goes.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Yeah, that could do some good. But at the same time, it seems like any beliefs or gods I'm actually able to find and read about would have a strong chance of being man-made. Christian version included. Men's made up ideas about gods won't benefit much. I think that any real creator in my sense of understanding would not be possible to know or understand.

That's okay, searching and believing in different belief systems at different times in your life is okay, its a personal evolution so to speak. Also they might benefit in the short term, and benefit even just for growth sake. The bold section is classic agnosticism as far as my understanding of agnosticism goes.

 

I guess you could say I'm an agonostic to an extent, yeah. As far as theism goes, anyway.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I'm kind of pissed that I was brought up in the church, because if I wasn't brought up in any religion, then I would have known what I truly believed for myself without any bias or influence. I would have found what I believed for myself, on my own. Now I'll probably never know.

[Xerces]

I'm kind of pissed that I was brought up in the church, because if I wasn't brought up in any religion, then I would have known what I truly believed for myself without any bias or influence. I would have found what I believed for myself, on my own. Now I'll probably never know.

 

 

At this point all I want to say is who cares about God. I'm a pathetic weak minded stupid little fuck for ever allowing myself to get sucked in to this shit. Fuck it all.

 

Wasn't your choice, blame your church and your parents. Some people don't "get it" until after being a pastor for many years. At least you've got your whole life ahead of you, where ever that might take you.

 

No, the blame is mine alone. I didn't get brainwashed until I started reading and listening to all kinds of fundie bullshit on the internet. That's what did it.

 

 

 

*You either were indoctrinated or you weren't, whats with the contradictory claims? That was from your apology and rant thread. Page 14.

[Phanta]

Ultimately you're right. Our existence has no more meaning than the existence of a rock in my back yard. We can give it meaning though. We (well many of us) are capable of being happy. Doing and experiencing things that makes me happy makes the continued struggle to exist worth the effort. That's why, for me, the feeling of emptiness was a transient feeling. Please do not take actions with permanent and profound results over an emotional state that might be transient.

 

I don't know how to give it meaning. I can find things I enjoy doing, but that would all be in vain. This is probably going to be a bad example, but it's all I've got for now. Let's say a person goes and sees a movie. This movie inspired them on a huge level, and they enjoyed it a lot. Maybe they even went to see it with people they enjoy being with. They had a very good time. Yet, no matter how much fun they had, or how good the movie was, they go home that night, and they feel empty and alone. Even if they're surrounded by people, they feel very alone. Actually, I don't even know where I'm going with this example, but my point is, no matter what a person does, it will not take away from the feeling of emptiness and being alone. When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your "ditractions" come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling. That feeling is what life is. Anything to take away from that is just a meaningless ditraction.

 

I grew up with this little voice telling me that underneath all the goodness, the truth is darkness, and it runs under everything, the horrible truth. That was a dark time. I have a different understanding now.

 

You wrote, "When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your 'ditractions' come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling."

 

But there is nothing more inherently true or real about the loneliness and emptiness that of the good times. NOTHING. It feels worse, because you don't have as many copes to deal with the difficult feelings. It is easy to build tools to address good feelings! But their ease does not in any way make the good feelings less true or real. It does mean you need new skills to deal with the loneliness and emptiness, to make the inner sense that it is SO REAL a little more in line with the reality that is all of those things are equally real, and it is us up to us to mold ourselves to address them as capable adults.

 

I used to carry around a real dark belief about the darkness of the world, especially during high school and early college. In time, I came to see the truth in the paragraph I wrote previously. I countered every dark thought with that truth. This has been changing my life.

 

I made my closest bond with those who were optimistic and positive about the world and about me, that I might internalize their attitudes and words, changing my self-talk. This has been changing my life.

 

I invested, mainly through volunteering but sometimes through paid work or finacial/goods offerings, in my community, in friends, in family, and in myself. I gave the best aspects and skills of myself, and continue to grow my skills in those areas, that I might invest even more deeply. Investment carries one through dark times.

 

During dark times, I remind myself that this, too, will pass, even as good times passes. It all just passes one into the other, and that is life, and it is OK.

 

My life has improved tremendously. It took practice, support, and determination.

 

You have so much determination. Your actions shine with it.

 

Phanta

[Phanta]

I think I may have posted this video already...it is one I love. There are little suggestions for ways to grow oneself in it. I love it. I love it even when I am in a relationship, happy, & content, because there is always an individual "me" to be nurtured.

 

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I'm kind of pissed that I was brought up in the church, because if I wasn't brought up in any religion, then I would have known what I truly believed for myself without any bias or influence. I would have found what I believed for myself, on my own. Now I'll probably never know.

 

 

At this point all I want to say is who cares about God. I'm a pathetic weak minded stupid little fuck for ever allowing myself to get sucked in to this shit. Fuck it all.

 

Wasn't your choice, blame your church and your parents. Some people don't "get it" until after being a pastor for many years. At least you've got your whole life ahead of you, where ever that might take you.

 

No, the blame is mine alone. I didn't get brainwashed until I started reading and listening to all kinds of fundie bullshit on the internet. That's what did it.

 

 

 

*You either were indoctrinated or you weren't, whats with the contradictory claims? That was from your apology and rant thread. Page 14.

 

I was brought up in the church and taught that the Bible was the word of God, I was a sinner, Jesus died for my sins, etc. I was taught those basic beliefs, but the real indoctrination didn't come until I started getting really into it myself. Getting serious about it. Doing reading about it on my own. The claims aren't contradictory. My parents brought me up in the basic beliefs. I gave myself the major indoctrination later on down the road. I wasn't blaming my parents for indoctrinating me, because that was, for the most part, something I did to myself. In the more recent post, all I was was saying was, I wish I knew what I would have believed if I wasn't influenced to believe in something. What conclusions I would have come to if I wasn't taught anything about God, the Bible, and also if I wasn't taught to be against God/the Bible/Christianity either. I just want to know what I would believe if I had been neutral about it from day 1. Belief and indoctrination are two different things. My parents planted the seed. I watered it in the wrong way, and got myself into the indoctrination stage.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Ultimately you're right. Our existence has no more meaning than the existence of a rock in my back yard. We can give it meaning though. We (well many of us) are capable of being happy. Doing and experiencing things that makes me happy makes the continued struggle to exist worth the effort. That's why, for me, the feeling of emptiness was a transient feeling. Please do not take actions with permanent and profound results over an emotional state that might be transient.

 

I don't know how to give it meaning. I can find things I enjoy doing, but that would all be in vain. This is probably going to be a bad example, but it's all I've got for now. Let's say a person goes and sees a movie. This movie inspired them on a huge level, and they enjoyed it a lot. Maybe they even went to see it with people they enjoy being with. They had a very good time. Yet, no matter how much fun they had, or how good the movie was, they go home that night, and they feel empty and alone. Even if they're surrounded by people, they feel very alone. Actually, I don't even know where I'm going with this example, but my point is, no matter what a person does, it will not take away from the feeling of emptiness and being alone. When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your "ditractions" come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling. That feeling is what life is. Anything to take away from that is just a meaningless ditraction.

 

I grew up with this little voice telling me that underneath all the goodness, the truth is darkness, and it runs under everything, the horrible truth. That was a dark time. I have a different understanding now.

 

You wrote, "When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your 'ditractions' come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling."

 

But there is nothing more inherently true or real about the loneliness and emptiness that of the good times. NOTHING. It feels worse, because you don't have as many copes to deal with the difficult feelings. It is easy to build tools to address good feelings! But their ease does not in any way make the good feelings less true or real. It does mean you need new skills to deal with the loneliness and emptiness, to make the inner sense that it is SO REAL a little more in line with the reality that is all of those things are equally real, and it is us up to us to mold ourselves to address them as capable adults.

 

I used to carry around a real dark belief about the darkness of the world, especially during high school and early college. In time, I came to see the truth in the paragraph I wrote previously. I countered every dark thought with that truth. This has been changing my life.

 

I made my closest bond with those who were optimistic and positive about the world and about me, that I might internalize their attitudes and words, changing my self-talk. This has been changing my life.

 

I invested, mainly through volunteering but sometimes through paid work or finacial/goods offerings, in my community, in friends, in family, and in myself. I gave the best aspects and skills of myself, and continue to grow my skills in those areas, that I might invest even more deeply. Investment carries one through dark times.

 

During dark times, I remind myself that this, too, will pass, even as good times passes. It all just passes one into the other, and that is life, and it is OK.

 

My life has improved tremendously. It took practice, support, and determination.

 

You have so much determination. Your actions shine with it.

 

Phanta

 

But the emptiness is real. I believe it's there in everyone's life, it's just a matter of their perspective. The darkness will never pass, but maybe I will find a way to change my perspective.

[MagickMonkey]

Ultimately you're right. Our existence has no more meaning than the existence of a rock in my back yard. We can give it meaning though. We (well many of us) are capable of being happy. Doing and experiencing things that makes me happy makes the continued struggle to exist worth the effort. That's why, for me, the feeling of emptiness was a transient feeling. Please do not take actions with permanent and profound results over an emotional state that might be transient.

 

I don't know how to give it meaning. I can find things I enjoy doing, but that would all be in vain. This is probably going to be a bad example, but it's all I've got for now. Let's say a person goes and sees a movie. This movie inspired them on a huge level, and they enjoyed it a lot. Maybe they even went to see it with people they enjoy being with. They had a very good time. Yet, no matter how much fun they had, or how good the movie was, they go home that night, and they feel empty and alone. Even if they're surrounded by people, they feel very alone. Actually, I don't even know where I'm going with this example, but my point is, no matter what a person does, it will not take away from the feeling of emptiness and being alone. When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your "ditractions" come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling. That feeling is what life is. Anything to take away from that is just a meaningless ditraction.

 

I grew up with this little voice telling me that underneath all the goodness, the truth is darkness, and it runs under everything, the horrible truth. That was a dark time. I have a different understanding now.

 

You wrote, "When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your 'ditractions' come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling."

 

But there is nothing more inherently true or real about the loneliness and emptiness that of the good times. NOTHING. It feels worse, because you don't have as many copes to deal with the difficult feelings. It is easy to build tools to address good feelings! But their ease does not in any way make the good feelings less true or real. It does mean you need new skills to deal with the loneliness and emptiness, to make the inner sense that it is SO REAL a little more in line with the reality that is all of those things are equally real, and it is us up to us to mold ourselves to address them as capable adults.

 

I used to carry around a real dark belief about the darkness of the world, especially during high school and early college. In time, I came to see the truth in the paragraph I wrote previously. I countered every dark thought with that truth. This has been changing my life.

 

I made my closest bond with those who were optimistic and positive about the world and about me, that I might internalize their attitudes and words, changing my self-talk. This has been changing my life.

 

I invested, mainly through volunteering but sometimes through paid work or finacial/goods offerings, in my community, in friends, in family, and in myself. I gave the best aspects and skills of myself, and continue to grow my skills in those areas, that I might invest even more deeply. Investment carries one through dark times.

 

During dark times, I remind myself that this, too, will pass, even as good times passes. It all just passes one into the other, and that is life, and it is OK.

 

My life has improved tremendously. It took practice, support, and determination.

 

You have so much determination. Your actions shine with it.

 

Phanta

 

But the emptiness is real. I believe it's there in everyone's life, it's just a matter of their perspective. The darkness will never pass, but maybe I will find a way to change my perspective.

 

That's a bad assumption. People are different, dude. I haven't felt any emptiness in a DAMN long while. I feel several different emotions at different times, but not emptiness. And my life is generally happy and definitely worth living.

[Phanta]

Ultimately you're right. Our existence has no more meaning than the existence of a rock in my back yard. We can give it meaning though. We (well many of us) are capable of being happy. Doing and experiencing things that makes me happy makes the continued struggle to exist worth the effort. That's why, for me, the feeling of emptiness was a transient feeling. Please do not take actions with permanent and profound results over an emotional state that might be transient.

 

I don't know how to give it meaning. I can find things I enjoy doing, but that would all be in vain. This is probably going to be a bad example, but it's all I've got for now. Let's say a person goes and sees a movie. This movie inspired them on a huge level, and they enjoyed it a lot. Maybe they even went to see it with people they enjoy being with. They had a very good time. Yet, no matter how much fun they had, or how good the movie was, they go home that night, and they feel empty and alone. Even if they're surrounded by people, they feel very alone. Actually, I don't even know where I'm going with this example, but my point is, no matter what a person does, it will not take away from the feeling of emptiness and being alone. When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your "ditractions" come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling. That feeling is what life is. Anything to take away from that is just a meaningless ditraction.

 

I grew up with this little voice telling me that underneath all the goodness, the truth is darkness, and it runs under everything, the horrible truth. That was a dark time. I have a different understanding now.

 

You wrote, "When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your 'ditractions' come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling."

 

But there is nothing more inherently true or real about the loneliness and emptiness that of the good times. NOTHING. It feels worse, because you don't have as many copes to deal with the difficult feelings. It is easy to build tools to address good feelings! But their ease does not in any way make the good feelings less true or real. It does mean you need new skills to deal with the loneliness and emptiness, to make the inner sense that it is SO REAL a little more in line with the reality that is all of those things are equally real, and it is us up to us to mold ourselves to address them as capable adults.

 

I used to carry around a real dark belief about the darkness of the world, especially during high school and early college. In time, I came to see the truth in the paragraph I wrote previously. I countered every dark thought with that truth. This has been changing my life.

 

I made my closest bond with those who were optimistic and positive about the world and about me, that I might internalize their attitudes and words, changing my self-talk. This has been changing my life.

 

I invested, mainly through volunteering but sometimes through paid work or finacial/goods offerings, in my community, in friends, in family, and in myself. I gave the best aspects and skills of myself, and continue to grow my skills in those areas, that I might invest even more deeply. Investment carries one through dark times.

 

During dark times, I remind myself that this, too, will pass, even as good times passes. It all just passes one into the other, and that is life, and it is OK.

 

My life has improved tremendously. It took practice, support, and determination.

 

You have so much determination. Your actions shine with it.

 

Phanta

 

But the emptiness is real. I believe it's there in everyone's life, it's just a matter of their perspective. The darkness will never pass, but maybe I will find a way to change my perspective.

 

Sure, the emptiness is real, but it isn't more real than the goodness. Good things are no more a distraction from the reality of the emptiness than emptiness is a distraction from the good times.

 

I could easily turn your view around and say, "Hey! Why are you letting those empty moments distract you from the underlying reality of goodness, the thing that is really real everywhere???"

 

Do you see what I'm saying? The emptiness is not the core reality; you are choosing to place it in that throne. In my view, emptiness is a part of life, goodness is a part of life, lonliness is a part of life, joy is a part of life, etc. If fullness is a distraction, then so is emptiness. If emptiness is reality, than so is fullness.

 

So, which aspects of your life are you going to nurture, which thinking? That which grows your hurt, or that which grows your joy? Because both are real, and you have some influence over how much time you spend focusing on each one.

 

This is a favorite story:

 

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside all people. He said, 'My son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all.

 

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

 

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.'

 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: 'Which wolf wins?'

 

The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed.'

 

Phanta

[MagickMonkey]

Ultimately you're right. Our existence has no more meaning than the existence of a rock in my back yard. We can give it meaning though. We (well many of us) are capable of being happy. Doing and experiencing things that makes me happy makes the continued struggle to exist worth the effort. That's why, for me, the feeling of emptiness was a transient feeling. Please do not take actions with permanent and profound results over an emotional state that might be transient.

 

I don't know how to give it meaning. I can find things I enjoy doing, but that would all be in vain. This is probably going to be a bad example, but it's all I've got for now. Let's say a person goes and sees a movie. This movie inspired them on a huge level, and they enjoyed it a lot. Maybe they even went to see it with people they enjoy being with. They had a very good time. Yet, no matter how much fun they had, or how good the movie was, they go home that night, and they feel empty and alone. Even if they're surrounded by people, they feel very alone. Actually, I don't even know where I'm going with this example, but my point is, no matter what a person does, it will not take away from the feeling of emptiness and being alone. When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your "ditractions" come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling. That feeling is what life is. Anything to take away from that is just a meaningless ditraction.

 

I grew up with this little voice telling me that underneath all the goodness, the truth is darkness, and it runs under everything, the horrible truth. That was a dark time. I have a different understanding now.

 

You wrote, "When it all comes down to it, everything, even the things that (to us) are big, are all meaningless, vain, empty distractions. When it all comes down to it, after all your 'ditractions' come to an end, real life IS that empty, lonely feeling."

 

But there is nothing more inherently true or real about the loneliness and emptiness that of the good times. NOTHING. It feels worse, because you don't have as many copes to deal with the difficult feelings. It is easy to build tools to address good feelings! But their ease does not in any way make the good feelings less true or real. It does mean you need new skills to deal with the loneliness and emptiness, to make the inner sense that it is SO REAL a little more in line with the reality that is all of those things are equally real, and it is us up to us to mold ourselves to address them as capable adults.

 

I used to carry around a real dark belief about the darkness of the world, especially during high school and early college. In time, I came to see the truth in the paragraph I wrote previously. I countered every dark thought with that truth. This has been changing my life.

 

I made my closest bond with those who were optimistic and positive about the world and about me, that I might internalize their attitudes and words, changing my self-talk. This has been changing my life.

 

I invested, mainly through volunteering but sometimes through paid work or finacial/goods offerings, in my community, in friends, in family, and in myself. I gave the best aspects and skills of myself, and continue to grow my skills in those areas, that I might invest even more deeply. Investment carries one through dark times.

 

During dark times, I remind myself that this, too, will pass, even as good times passes. It all just passes one into the other, and that is life, and it is OK.

 

My life has improved tremendously. It took practice, support, and determination.

 

You have so much determination. Your actions shine with it.

 

Phanta

 

But the emptiness is real. I believe it's there in everyone's life, it's just a matter of their perspective. The darkness will never pass, but maybe I will find a way to change my perspective.

 

Sure, the emptiness is real, but it isn't more real than the goodness. Good things are no more a distraction from the reality of the emptiness than emptiness is a distraction from the good times.

 

I could easily turn your view around and say, "Hey! Why are you letting those empty moments distract you from the underlying reality of goodness, the thing that is really real everywhere???"

 

Do you see what I'm saying? The emptiness is not the core reality; you are choosing to place it in that throne. In my view, emptiness is a part of life, goodness is a part of life, lonliness is a part of life, joy is a part of life, etc. If fullness is a distraction, then so is emptiness. If emptiness is reality, than so is fullness.

 

So, which aspects of your life are you going to nurture, which thinking? That which grows your hurt, or that which grows your joy? Because both are real, and you have some influence over how much time you spend focusing on each one.

 

This is a favorite story:

 

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside all people. He said, 'My son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all.

 

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

 

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.'

 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: 'Which wolf wins?'

 

The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed.'

 

Phanta

 

I love the Cherokee story!!!

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

That's a bad assumption. People are different, dude. I haven't felt any emptiness in a DAMN long while. I feel several different emotions at different times, but not emptiness. And my life is generally happy and definitely worth living.

 

Maybe it's just me.

 

Sure, the emptiness is real, but it isn't more real than the goodness. Good things are no more a distraction from the reality of the emptiness than emptiness is a distraction from the good times.

 

I could easily turn your view around and say, "Hey! Why are you letting those empty moments distract you from the underlying reality of goodness, the thing that is really real everywhere???"

 

Do you see what I'm saying? The emptiness is not the core reality; you are choosing to place it in that throne. In my view, emptiness is a part of life, goodness is a part of life, lonliness is a part of life, joy is a part of life, etc. If fullness is a distraction, then so is emptiness. If emptiness is reality, than so is fullness.

 

So, which aspects of your life are you going to nurture, which thinking? That which grows your hurt, or that which grows your joy? Because both are real, and you have some influence over how much time you spend focusing on each one.

 

This is a favorite story:

 

One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside all people. He said, 'My son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all.

 

One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

 

The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.'

 

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: 'Which wolf wins?'

 

The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed.'

 

Phanta

 

I think I've heard that story before, or a similar one. That has a lot of truth to it.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

The questions regarding why we're here and how we got here are driving me insane. A part of me knows that it's impossible to know specifics, but another part of me thinks that, at the risk of eternal damnation, it's something I absolutely have to figure out.... I stress myself out trying to force myself to come to a conclusion about something that I can never truly know. No one can know. Yet, if it's as important as some people imply, then we have to figure it out. But we can't. Even if we could, would we? Would I? Am I searching for something that I don't want to find? Am I running from something I know to be true, trying to find alternative explanations? Is the reason I can't let go because there really is a Jesus Christ out there who is refusing to let me go, and I keep running because I don't want to be sucked back into that miserable mindset?

[Phanta]

I stress myself out trying to force myself to come to a conclusion about something that I can never truly know. No one can know.

 

You will continue to stress out until you choose to refocus your thoughts on "No one can know" and then learn the skill of deliberate focus through practice.

 

Phanta

[MagickMonkey]

Is the reason I can't let go because there really is a Jesus Christ out there who is refusing to let me go, and I keep running because I don't want to be sucked back into that miserable mindset?

 

Ask that same question, except substitute the "Is the reason I can't let go" with any other OCD symptom, and see if it still makes sense. "Do I keep checking to see if the doors are locked because jesus want's me too". "Do I not step on the side walk cracks because jesus doesn't want me to break my mother's back". (Maybe I could have written this better.) I guess my point is you do not need a jesus to explain OCD type behavior, even if a specific symptom is related to christianity.

 

One other thing.

 

GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!!

 

It's not that I'm tired of hearing you go on and on about your problems. I'm concerned BECAUSE YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP AND YOU WON'T GET IT!!! Dude, byte the bullet and get it done. Why the wait. I won't respond to another post from you on this thread or any other similar thread until I hear how your therapy session went, or at least that you're getting the help you need.

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

I stress myself out trying to force myself to come to a conclusion about something that I can never truly know. No one can know.

 

You will continue to stress out until you choose to refocus your thoughts on "No one can know" and then learn the skill of deliberate focus through practice.

 

Phanta

 

I know. I know no one can know, and I know (or actually, I think) that the healthiest mindset has to admit that. I guess it's just the religious fear that kicks in and says "but you're SUPPOSED to know!"

[Guest Perfect Insanity]

Ask that same question, except substitute the "Is the reason I can't let go" with any other OCD symptom, and see if it still makes sense. "Do I keep checking to see if the doors are locked because jesus want's me too". "Do I not step on the side walk cracks because jesus doesn't want me to break my mother's back". (Maybe I could have written this better.) I guess my point is you do not need a jesus to explain OCD type behavior, even if a specific symptom is related to christianity.

 

That's actually a very good point.

 

One other thing.

 

GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!!

 

It's not that I'm tired of hearing you go on and on about your problems. I'm concerned BECAUSE YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP AND YOU WON'T GET IT!!! Dude, byte the bullet and get it done. Why the wait. I won't respond to another post from you on this thread or any other similar thread until I hear how your therapy session went, or at least that your getting the help you need.

 

Let me just ask this, whether from a shrink, a clinic, or whatever, is it possible to do that COMPLETELY anonymously? As in, do it without ANYONE knowing about it, other than myself and the doctor? Without having to get into complicated things like insurance and all that? If I do it, I don't want anyone (other than all of you guys) finding out about it, not even my family.

[MagickMonkey]

Ask that same question, except substitute the "Is the reason I can't let go" with any other OCD symptom, and see if it still makes sense. "Do I keep checking to see if the doors are locked because jesus want's me too". "Do I not step on the side walk cracks because jesus doesn't want me to break my mother's back". (Maybe I could have written this better.) I guess my point is you do not need a jesus to explain OCD type behavior, even if a specific symptom is related to christianity.

 

That's actually a very good point.

 

One other thing.

 

GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!! GET HELP!!!!!

 

It's not that I'm tired of hearing you go on and on about your problems. I'm concerned BECAUSE YOU NEED PROFESSIONAL HELP AND YOU WON'T GET IT!!! Dude, byte the bullet and get it done. Why the wait. I won't respond to another post from you on this thread or any other similar thread until I hear how your therapy session went, or at least that your getting the help you need.

 

Let me just ask this, whether from a shrink, a clinic, or whatever, is it possible to do that COMPLETELY anonymously? As in, do it without ANYONE knowing about it, other than myself and the doctor? Without having to get into complicated things like insurance and all that? If I do it, I don't want anyone (other than all of you guys) finding out about it, not even my family.

 

Ok, since the answer to your question might lead you to get help, I'll respond. I imagine if someone else is paying for your insurance, they may see something when they get the bill. You might can ask a the doctor's office or the insurance company how to get around this. Of course, the doctors are bound by law not to discuss your case with anyone. No one should find out.