Need Support

[★ Citsonga ★]

When you quote someone, they will receive an email showing your response (just like you received emails when they responded on this thread).

 

I haven't been getting those emails in ages, so I thought it stopped when the board changed a while back. If some of you still get them, then I'm not sure why I don't. I nearly always use my content under my profile to access the boards anyway, so when I get on I usually see right away if there have been replies in threads I've posted in.

[Guest Valk0010]

And another thing. Call it recommended reading.

 

I am currently reading a book called: My Path to Atheism by Annie Wood Besant. The first section talks about the gospels and how there is no way that the gospels as presented in every bible you see could prove that Jesus was the son of god. It might help, your bible might be true problem.

 

I agree that the Bible is a true problem. Studying the Bible is what destroyed my faith, but that took a long time. I actually studied it for years before I started doubting, due to the extreme level of indoctrination that I had received.

 

"My Path to Atheism" sounded like an interesting book that I may want to read. I looked on Amazon, and since they have the option to read a few pages from it, I thought I would check it out first. As early as the top of the second page, though, she uses a flimsy argument. Here is the quote that bugged me:

 

His own assertions of his divinity are to be found only in the unreliable fourth gospel, and in it they are destroyed by the sentence there put into his mouth with strange inconsistency: "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

 

The quotation of Jesus is from John 5:31, but it seems most logical to me to understand this as referring to how it's often difficult to take one person's word as truth. He's not saying that bearing witness of himself means he's lying, but that one person's witness of himself would not be enough to establish truth. In other words, it's more a matter of the public's perception than the accuracy of his claims about himself. He then goes on in the next few verses to say that John (the Baptist) and the Father also bear witness. Interestingly, Deuteronomy 17:6 called for two or three witnesses.

 

That does not make the Bible true, of course, but it's still important, because I think we should try to avoid using such weak arguments. Christians already think that atheists don't know what they're talking about, and stuff like this only serves to confirm that in their minds. The Bible has a ton of problems, so there are plenty of much better arguments to demonstrate that the Bible is self-defeating. Hopefully the remainder of Annie's book is better.

Well I had quite a few, why didn't I think of that moments with the book. Either that wasn't one of them, or it didn't strongly register in my mind because I forgot about that one till you said it.

 

I can't recommend anything more then the first chapter. I put it down to read the Magic of Reality by richard dawkins and I am also reading robert green ingersoll.

[London]

That is Scott Clifton, he is a emmy award winning soap opera actor and he is gay.

 

I knew he was a soap opera actor, but I didn't know he was gay. It doesn't matter either way to me anyway, not only because I don't care whether he's gay or straight, but also because the argument stands on its own merits.

 

Ok, I think I may be wrong about him being gay, I swear I read he came out recently but now I cannot confirm that. He has some really great videos though.

[starlyte777]

Here are two of my favorite YouTube videos, which I hope can be helpful in working through what is real and what is absurd.

 

God's Checklist 2.0

 

What Would Jesus NOT Do?

OMG...........the last was so insane............and yet, so true...........was I born STUPID.......or did i develop it over time?......I hate this journey, I have to say.........I feel as ignorgant as slime at the bottome of the lake............I hate learned the truth......just so you know...........it hearts my heart........cuz I have believed a beautiful picture of a god who loved me...........a jesis was my brother.......contrary to my real brother who abused me for years............so I took comfor in jesus.............who do i take comfort in now? this is painful

[starlyte777]

Here are two of my favorite YouTube videos, which I hope can be helpful in working through what is real and what is absurd.

 

God's Checklist 2.0

 

What Would Jesus NOT Do?

OMG...........the last was so insane............and yet, so true...........was I born STUPID.......or did i develop it over time?......I hate this journey, I have to say.........I feel as ignorgant as slime at the bottome of the lake............I hate learned the truth......just so you know...........it hearts my heart........cuz I have believed a beautiful picture of a god who loved me...........a jesis was my brother.......contrary to my real brother who abused me for years............so I took comfor in jesus.............who do i take comfort in now? this is painful

sorry meant to say.........ty for both of these videos..........forgot that..........my bad..........tyty xx

[★ Citsonga ★]

OMG...........the last was so insane............and yet, so true...........was I born STUPID.......or did i develop it over time?......I hate this journey, I have to say.........I feel as ignorgant as slime at the bottome of the lake............I hate learned the truth......just so you know...........it hearts my heart........cuz I have believed a beautiful picture of a god who loved me...........a jesis was my brother.......contrary to my real brother who abused me for years............so I took comfor in jesus.............who do i take comfort in now? this is painful

 

You're not stupid. You've merely been programmed with stuff that isn't true, in much the same way that many of us were. The fact that you're beginning to see through it indicates that you're not stupid, so don't think that. It takes a while to work through some of this stuff. A paradigm shift isn't easy. The points made in that second video are indeed "so true," but like you, I didn't think about a lot of that stuff either. That's the nature of indoctrination, in that it puts us on one track of thinking and makes it difficult to see that the track is a mess.

 

sorry meant to say.........ty for both of these videos..........forgot that..........my bad..........tyty xx

 

You're quite welcome. Eventually things will get better. I'm confident that you'll be able to wade through the confusion and come out strong. Just take it easy along the way and give yourself time for everything that you're learning to soak in.

[starlyte777]

OMG...........the last was so insane............and yet, so true...........was I born STUPID.......or did i develop it over time?......I hate this journey, I have to say.........I feel as ignorgant as slime at the bottome of the lake............I hate learned the truth......just so you know...........it hearts my heart........cuz I have believed a beautiful picture of a god who loved me...........a jesis was my brother.......contrary to my real brother who abused me for years............so I took comfor in jesus.............who do i take comfort in now? this is painful

 

You're not stupid. You've merely been programmed with stuff that isn't true, in much the same way that many of us were. The fact that you're beginning to see through it indicates that you're not stupid, so don't think that. It takes a while to work through some of this stuff. A paradigm shift isn't easy. The points made in that second video are indeed "so true," but like you, I didn't think about a lot of that stuff either. That's the nature of indoctrination, in that it puts us on one track of thinking and makes it difficult to see that the track is a mess.

 

sorry meant to say.........ty for both of these videos..........forgot that..........my bad..........tyty xx

 

You're quite welcome. Eventually things will get better. I'm confident that you'll be able to wade through the confusion and come out strong. Just take it easy along the way and give yourself time for everything that you're learning to soak in.

ty so much.........rationalist........so much info in so little time........xx

[starlyte777]

kaiser..........ty for that video.........was compelling and disturbing........as don't know yet how to speak to whoever send me an email.......i hope this reaches you.......does this mean we're *friends*........don't know how that works either..............anyway............ty so much xx

[starlyte777]

kaiser..........ty for that video.........was compelling and disturbing........as don't know yet how to speak to whoever send me an email.......i hope this reaches you.......does this mean we're *friends*........don't know how that works either..............anyway............ty so much xx

 

i have seen this one.........ty for sending......xx

[starlyte777]

OMG...........the last was so insane............and yet, so true...........was I born STUPID.......or did i develop it over time?......I hate this journey, I have to say.........I feel as ignorgant as slime at the bottome of the lake............I hate learned the truth......just so you know...........it hearts my heart........cuz I have believed a beautiful picture of a god who loved me...........a jesis was my brother.......contrary to my real brother who abused me for years............so I took comfor in jesus.............who do i take comfort in now? this is painful

 

You're not stupid. You've merely been programmed with stuff that isn't true, in much the same way that many of us were. The fact that you're beginning to see through it indicates that you're not stupid, so don't think that. It takes a while to work through some of this stuff. A paradigm shift isn't easy. The points made in that second video are indeed "so true," but like you, I didn't think about a lot of that stuff either. That's the nature of indoctrination, in that it puts us on one track of thinking and makes it difficult to see that the track is a mess.

 

sorry meant to say.........ty for both of these videos..........forgot that..........my bad..........tyty xx

 

You're quite welcome. Eventually things will get better. I'm confident that you'll be able to wade through the confusion and come out strong. Just take it easy along the way and give yourself time for everything that you're learning to soak in.

 

ok ty...........thanks again for bothering to send me stuff.........means a lot as i wrestle with family who hates where i am...........and oc friends........have lost a few...........i play bridge in Yahoo......had friends there for many years..........they are trying to tell me how wrong i am......as all I said was .......am rethinking Christianity............arggggggggggg............altho one asked me to IM her.........besides her........the others won't speak to me........that is hurtful

I have been online friends with most of them for 6 years........oh well.........it is what it is............how many times can a heart be broken ?

[starlyte777]

ok Cutsibga,,,,,,,,,read what you said,,,,,,,,was a bit harsh........but, ok.........i hear what you r saying.........but, you seem very bitter.....i don't do bitter....just sayin............want ot know the truth ........wherever that leads me.........if back to Christiaity......ok............if not........ok..........but, want just truth.......my hubby encourages me NOT to listen to anything here............so what does that make me..............? i love my husband.............but still seeking truth xx

[TrueFreedom]

ok Cutsibga,,,,,,,,,read what you said,,,,,,,,was a bit harsh........but, ok.........i hear what you r saying.........but, you seem very bitter.....i don't do bitter....just sayin............want ot know the truth ........wherever that leads me.........if back to Christiaity......ok............if not........ok..........but, want just truth.......my hubby encourages me NOT to listen to anything here............so what does that make me..............? i love my husband.............but still seeking truth xx

 

Hi starlyte! I did not read what Citsonga said as harsh, but I can definitely see how a believer would see terms like "programming" and "indoctrination" as inflammatory. I can also understand your dear husbands concern, but we all deserve the freedom to explore new ideas and find truth. He is your friend and partner in life, not your master.

[★ Citsonga ★]

ty so much.........rationalist........so much info in so little time........xx

 

You're welcome. Indeed it is a lot to soak in. Just for clarification, I didn't have anything to do with the "rationalist" tag under my user name. I don't object to the tag, but I didn't put it there. I'm not sure if the moderators or software place the tags, but it apparently has to do with the nature of the individual's type of posts.

 

[EDIT TO ADD: Now it says "Sage" under my user name. I'm not so sure about that one! ]

 

ok Cutsibga,,,,,,,,,read what you said,,,,,,,,was a bit harsh........but, ok.........i hear what you r saying.........but, you seem very bitter.....i don't do bitter....just sayin............want ot know the truth ........wherever that leads me.........if back to Christiaity......ok............if not........ok..........but, want just truth.......my hubby encourages me NOT to listen to anything here............so what does that make me..............? i love my husband.............but still seeking truth xx

 

I assume you meant me. At any rate, I wasn't being bitter at all, I was simply stating the facts as I see them. Seeking truth is the right path, so I encourage you with that, as well as maintaining that love. I know what it's like to be at a place where you don't know what the truth is. I've been there, and it was a very difficult time for me, so I feel for you. I know where the overwhelming evidence led me, but of course you're your own person. It's your journey, and I simply meant to encourage you. I wish you well in your future endeavors....

[★ Citsonga ★]

ok Cutsibga,,,,,,,,,read what you said,,,,,,,,was a bit harsh........but, ok.........i hear what you r saying.........but, you seem very bitter.....i don't do bitter....just sayin............want ot know the truth ........wherever that leads me.........if back to Christiaity......ok............if not........ok..........but, want just truth.......my hubby encourages me NOT to listen to anything here............so what does that make me..............? i love my husband.............but still seeking truth xx

 

Hi starlyte! I did not read what Citsonga said as harsh, but I can definitely see how a believer would see terms like "programming" and "indoctrination" as inflammatory. I can also understand your dear husbands concern, but we all deserve the freedom to explore new ideas and find truth. He is your friend and partner in life, not your master.

 

Thanks, TF.

 

Starlyte, if it was indeed "program" and "indoctrination" that bothered you, then I apologize for not being clear. All I was getting at is how relgions in general operate by "training" the children (or newcomers) to think the way the religion wants them to think. It happens all over the world, with children in Muslim areas being taught that Islam is truth, children in Hindu areas being taught that Hinduism is truth, children in Christian areas being taught that Christianity is truth, etc. That is programming/indoctrinating them, even though it's usually not intentionally misleading. Parents simply teach their children what they believe. It's basically a matter of demographics, as can be seen by looking at a world map with areas marked off by their dominant religions.

 

So, I was not trying to attack you or anyone who trained you in the faith, nor do I think that my family "lied" to me (even though I am convinced that what they taught me as "truth" really isn't true). Since you have been expressing doubts about your religious faith, it sounds like you're at the point of thinking that the Christianity you come from is at least partially inaccurate. Thus, I thought that my comments were worded adequately for you to see what I was getting at, but apparently I made a faulty assumption there. I hope this explanation has helped clear it up some, because my tone was actually a positive one, not a negative one.

 

If my matter-of-fact approach to writing comes across as negative, then I can bow out of this thread. I definitely don't want to sidetrack the discussion or unintentionally cause you any harm as you try to work through everything.

 

Life is a journey, and I hope that you enjoy the road ahead of you....

[Margee]

Star...I have been following along. You are going to be OK.....trust me....I went through more horrible emotions to finally let go. I have posted this several times in the last couple of years and I think its VERY important that you learn how to start deprogramming your own mind. When you get time, my friend....study this!! This is for YOU and noboby else....dont let anyone know you are working on deprogramming your mind.

Let it be your secret with you. It still helps me.

 

http://www.ex-christ...__fromsearch__1

[mcdaddy]

You take comfort in those that actually love you without condition, unlike Yahweh.

[mcdaddy]

^^^^ that was in response to your question about who you can take comfort in.

 

If you can feel comfort in a fictional entity that you never had any real contact with, the comfort you can feel from people like Jason and April etc should feel far superior.

[Guest Valk0010]

 

This might be something interesting for you, if you going to look into things like Tag or the arguement from reason or kalam, etc.

[antix]

my son is jjbue and daughter is 2honest.......have been wrestling with the whole faith vs atheist for months.......need help with the whole family thing..........and should I even be here.......I vasilate from believing and not believing........took a tumble recently.....cried out for Jesus.........does that mean I still believe? Or does it mean I'm so confused I only cry out for a higher being when I'm in trouble.....does that make me a hyprocrite? I hate hyprocites.....so hope I'm not one.

 

I joined recently also and am having doubts and questions like you. One thing you will find is most of the members here tend to be nice people. Things that made me question (recently, I was having questions for awhile seeing most christians as hypocritical assholes) are the following:

 

1) Read Judges 11 : 29-40 Something is not kosher

 

2) As a member here named Mcdaddy asked me when I joined: Do you see christians showing fruit?

 

3) Why all the nastyness in the old testament?

 

4) Noah doing his daughters after getting drunk?

[★ Citsonga ★]

4) Noah doing his daughters after getting drunk?

 

I believe you mean Lot.

[starlyte777]

ok Cutsibga,,,,,,,,,read what you said,,,,,,,,was a bit harsh........but, ok.........i hear what you r saying.........but, you seem very bitter.....i don't do bitter....just sayin............want ot know the truth ........wherever that leads me.........if back to Christiaity......ok............if not........ok..........but, want just truth.......my hubby encourages me NOT to listen to anything here............so what does that make me..............? i love my husband.............but still seeking truth xx

 

Hi starlyte! I did not read what Citsonga said as harsh, but I can definitely see how a believer would see terms like "programming" and "indoctrination" as inflammatory. I can also understand your dear husbands concern, but we all deserve the freedom to explore new ideas and find truth. He is your friend and partner in life, not your master.

 

Thanks, TF.

 

Starlyte, if it was indeed "program" and "indoctrination" that bothered you, then I apologize for not being clear. All I was getting at is how relgions in general operate by "training" the children (or newcomers) to think the way the religion wants them to think. It happens all over the world, with children in Muslim areas being taught that Islam is truth, children in Hindu areas being taught that Hinduism is truth, children in Christian areas being taught that Christianity is truth, etc. That is programming/indoctrinating them, even though it's usually not intentionally misleading. Parents simply teach their children what they believe. It's basically a matter of demographics, as can be seen by looking at a world map with areas marked off by their dominant religions.

 

So, I was not trying to attack you or anyone who trained you in the faith, nor do I think that my family "lied" to me (even though I am convinced that what they taught me as "truth" really isn't true). Since you have been expressing doubts about your religious faith, it sounds like you're at the point of thinking that the Christianity you come from is at least partially inaccurate. Thus, I thought that my comments were worded adequately for you to see what I was getting at, but apparently I made a faulty assumption there. I hope this explanation has helped clear it up some, because my tone was actually a positive one, not a negative one.

 

If my matter-of-fact approach to writing comes across as negative, then I can bow out of this thread. I definitely don't want to sidetrack the discussion or unintentionally cause you any harm as you try to work through everything.

 

Life is a journey, and I hope that you enjoy the road ahead of you....

 

true freedom...........please do NOT bow out of this "thread" I just watched all of "the tomb" series...........it was awesome!!! thank you so much......i need direct thinking.....you didn't offend me..........i need to be less sensitive and more open............as for the series.......I could not find part 16.......where is it?

again,,,,,,,,ty ty for caring enough to help me! xx

[starlyte777]

Let me just this to all of you, who are now my friends, and I am very grateful for..............I continue to listen to everything you send me.......i just can't figure out how to tell each of you, individually, thank you!!!!!!!! Be sure I am watching everything...........and when one of grandkids comes back, they will show me how to respond to each of you individually. I am honored that you respond to me that way.........and want to honor you all, as well.......You have all been such great help to me! Please don't think i don't appreciate it becuz I haven't responded directly. I am a techy dork.................love you all already.....thank you sooooooooo much......patty xx

[mcdaddy]

It was I, your humble servant that suggested the Empty Tomb series by TruthSurge. I can't believe you got all the way through it! It's probably 5 hours long!!! Gives you quite a bit to chew on tho doesn't it? He has another series that is really good too. I like the guy, knows quite a bit.

 

I'm also reading Richard Carrier, "Not the Impossible Faith". Gives a very good account of xian origins. Everything by him is good. He's my favorite right now.

[starlyte777]

It was I, your humble servant that suggested the Empty Tomb series by TruthSurge. I can't believe you got all the way through it! It's probably 5 hours long!!! Gives you quite a bit to chew on tho doesn't it? He has another series that is really good too. I like the guy, knows quite a bit.

 

I'm also reading Richard Carrier, "Not the Impossible Faith". Gives a very good account of xian origins. Everything by him is good. He's my favorite right now.

 

ty mcdaddy.................I DID IT...........responded to right person,...........yeeeehawwwwwww...........yes, was long........but was hooked as you said I would be.....he mentions Part 16.......can't find that.........have you? as for books......would have to order online.......which require asking my hubby.......who would say NO WAY..............just where he is........so have to rely on all the awesome videos right now........thank you so much!! patty xx

[TrueFreedom]

It was I, your humble servant that suggested the Empty Tomb series by TruthSurge. I can't believe you got all the way through it! It's probably 5 hours long!!! Gives you quite a bit to chew on tho doesn't it? He has another series that is really good too. I like the guy, knows quite a bit.

 

I'm also reading Richard Carrier, "Not the Impossible Faith". Gives a very good account of xian origins. Everything by him is good. He's my favorite right now.

 

ty mcdaddy.................I DID IT...........responded to right person,...........yeeeehawwwwwww...........yes, was long........but was hooked as you said I would be.....he mentions Part 16.......can't find that.........have you? as for books......would have to order online.......which require asking my hubby.......who would say NO WAY..............just where he is........so have to rely on all the awesome videos right now........thank you so much!! patty xx

 

I don't think he's done part 16. He talked about it in a video on July 22--may need more time to finish it.

 

Check the library for books! They often have a lot on religious history, comparative mythology, evolution, etc.

 

{{hugs}}