bornagainathiest Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Ha, I knew y'all wouldn't have the fortitude to answer. Sez the man who called God evil last month and who calls him good this month. Better to lack fortitude than to be like that, imho, But you don't understand the context of those statements. True! But there is one thing I do understand, Sdelsolray. Even tho' End can brag about having the biggest balls, he's still contradicting himself and defending a p.o.v. he denied a while back. Some victory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereisnoperfect Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 What (still) puzzles me is why End3 persists with the assumption/assertion that the God of the Bible is good and moral? Why he continues to argue that this God has a higher morality and greater morality than we do? . . . Why can't End simply admit that the order to massacre Amalekite children was an evil and immoral order, given by an evil and immoral God? Not so long ago he admitted that this same God knew evil, caused evil and did evil. I haven't forgotten this admission. Care to retract it, End? If you were God and you knew baby Adolph was going to turn out the way he did, would it be moral to kill baby Adolph.....again, if you knew. Well, apparently not, because GOD DIDN'T. Also: FUCK YOU for all your insults to my intelligence. FUCK YOU for suggesting I just don't understand. My master's degree in English says I can read and comprehend just fine. But since YOU are not able to follow your own claims to their logical conclusion--if all people deserve death but only some of them get it, that is still arbitrary and unfair. That is still a moral stance that is inferior to the moral stance of pretty much every person I have ever met. A god who defends that position is WORSE than people, not better. And you are a worse person for your attempts to justify it. And we here certainly don't grant your fucked-up and proven-to-be-psychologically-harmful assertion that all people are inherently evil and deserve death. So don't think that's persuading anybody or making you any friends. My vehement disagreement with you is not because I don't understand what you're saying--it's because I DO understand your position, and its horrific implications. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator TheRedneckProfessor Posted June 5, 2014 Super Moderator Share Posted June 5, 2014 End3, I hate to be the one to say it, but your argument is invalid. First of all, from your own words, "we are all evil". To compare us to the god from whom absolute morality is supposed to come is therefore unfair. Whatever god would or would not have done is incomparable to the morality of those who have actually experienced humanity. Secondly, whatever any of us would have done or not done concerning Hitler, the present fact is that god let him live--a fact which cost the lives of 6.5 million of god's "chosen people". Using Hitler, who actually did commit evil atrocities, as a defense of the genocide of the Amalekites, who are only alleged by the same god to have been evil, is simply disingenuous. Lastly, it seems pretty clear that we ex-christians have demonstrated a higher morality than your god. That your defense of his atrocities sickens us is certain evidence of the fact. This argument has therefore failed. You should consider approaching your god's atrocities from a different angle. You admit that he is capable; you've admitted that he created evil and has acted upon it. That his ways are not ours is simply not a good enough defense. Try something new. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Let me ask you this. If you knew a child would grow up to be Hitler, what would you do. Oh my god, E3. Please don't tell me that you actually believe it is - or has ever been - within the realm of possibility for anyone to predict that certain groups of people, based on their genetic make-up are impure or evil and deserve to be wiped out as a sort of preemptive strike in an effort to keep the rest of us protected from such evil and . . . impurity. . . Wait. . . Is this a trick question? Sorry, God only has one tool in his toolbox. Homicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 Hi christian guests. Take a look at the mindfuckery this fellow brother in christ is going through. Do you agree with his conclusion? That because the god you both serve knows who's going to become evil, he's justified in taking them out? If so, please think about this. 2nd Sam 12: the christian afterbirth abortion episode http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/61477-christian-afterbirth-abortion/#.U5EAcCgzJ8E The god you serve clearly has no problems killing an infant, so here's my question for you to think about: If god is perfectly capable of killing anyone, even babies and infants, and per your conclusion, he's justified in killing them, why have humans do the killing? Your god must know the psychological trauma normal human beings go through if they should kill a child. Take those drunk drivers who've killed children. It wasn't premeditated, and they really weren't in control of the vehicle because they were drunk, but they're guilty of it because they chose to drive while drunk. Think about their psychological state. Read about how some drunk drivers aren't the same after hearing that they've killed children. Now, is this a moral thing for your god (or anyone really) to do to humans? Humans were instructed to kill infants because their god said so. You've already seen how this christian chose to answer that. He would do it. Would you? And would you still think your god is just and moral? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 So you think the nursing babies that god commanded be killed actually deserved to die because they were born in a time before Jesus (dispensation of grace)? No, personally I don't, BUT, it appears via science that the "sins" of the fathers can genetically alter the outcome of the child. So ultimately, if one were trying to undo what has been done, I could see wiping out a population....in THEORY. So there are Scriptures that support this science as well as admonitions of Christ saying let me be the judge. But hell, it's all a coincidence. Why would God wait to correct the problem until it got so fucked up that he would have to destroy a whole race of people? :-) God's wonderful plan for the Amelekite's lives apparently did not include monitoring for or correcting bad DNA. Then again if we're all children of God, our DNA is perfect. God don't make no junk, (I've heard). So his mysterious way was to grow a whole race of people with perfectly shitty DNA then wipe em out. lol. Right on!!! That's brilliant! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 What (still) puzzles me is why End3 persists with the assumption/assertion that the God of the Bible is good and moral? Why he continues to argue that this God has a higher morality and greater morality than we do? . . . Why can't End simply admit that the order to massacre Amalekite children was an evil and immoral order, given by an evil and immoral God? Not so long ago he admitted that this same God knew evil, caused evil and did evil. I haven't forgotten this admission. Care to retract it, End? If you were God and you knew baby Adolph was going to turn out the way he did, would it be moral to kill baby Adolph.....again, if you knew. Is that the only solution to a problem? Kill it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 What's ironic is that these exact same christians publicly decry Islam's killings in the name of Allah. Stoning women for sleeping with a man not her husband? Christians all around the world all cry out in protest. Yet how do they know that those women weren't 'evil Hitlerinas?' How does the christian know that it's evil when Allah commands it and Muslims obey, but yet they know that it must somehow be good when Yaweh commands it and they obey? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 No, answer this question as I have written it. What you both are going into is the free will argument. Don't dodge. What do you mean? If god knows what a child will grow up to be, there can be no freewill. So if we are postulating what we would do if we were god and we knew what Hitler was going to be, freewill can not come into play because fetus Adolph's whole life is already planned for him. He has no choice in the matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 End3: When you suggest that the reason god allowed his genocidal killings was because he knew who was was going to evil from their genetics, and so he eliminated them in advance. Hell, if he were omniscient as Xtians claim, he knew that before he created mankind.Why didn't he correct his error before he created them? Instead of giving orders to the jews to commit genocide, why did he not use his magical powers to prevent innumerable genocides and other tragedies from occurring in the first place? Or why did he not kill all the Nazis before they killed 6 million Jews? How is it that all the "evil" people he told the Jews to kill, (the Canaanites, etc.)just happen to live in the same county so they could be easily slaughtered? There was not one person who was worthy of saving? Now that's quite a coincidence. It's like everyone who is killed in a flood deserving to die. Come on. Get real. What exactly was the nature of the victims' evil? They were the ones being attacked, not doing the attacking.They didn't kill anybody. (But they were going to, huh?) You are making up your own bible (word of god) and taking it for scripture. If you Xtians are going to claim that the bible is inerrant then you have to read it for what it says rather adding to it verbally what you wish it had said. The bible (bad as it is) doesn't say these victims were evil. That's either your idea or one from some other misguided Xtian. They are not in short supply. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 If you Xtians are going to claim that the bible is inerrant then you have to read it for what it says rather adding to it verbally what you wish it had said. If the Christians read it for what it said then they would have to admit that their God is sometimes a moron. So they must continue to lie to themselves and make shit up lest they become like us. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Omniscience.. it has a definition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neverlandrut Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I am beginning to think that this End3 guy just gets a rise out of fucking with people. He obviously does not know the first thing about making a coherent argument. All we have seen is circular reasoning, arguments from ignorance, and blatant self contradictions. Instead of rising to the challenge of our questions and objections, he just accuses us of not answering his completely invalid questions and resorts to name calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I am beginning to think that this End3 guy just gets a rise out of fucking with people. He obviously does not know the first thing about making a coherent argument. All we have seen is circular reasoning, arguments from ignorance, and blatant self contradictions. Instead of rising to the challenge of our questions and objections, he just accuses us of not answering his completely invalid questions and resorts to name calling. Bible God could never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never never be the teensiest bit wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Tower down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeThinkerNZ Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I am beginning to think that this End3 guy just gets a rise out of fucking with people. He obviously does not know the first thing about making a coherent argument. All we have seen is circular reasoning, arguments from ignorance, and blatant self contradictions. Instead of rising to the challenge of our questions and objections, he just accuses us of not answering his completely invalid questions and resorts to name calling. Welcome to the standard operating procedure of xians in the Lion's Den. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 But what about the peace grace choose hope prayerfulness? In the spirit life comes alive and it moves to the conviction of the love. Mix it with waiting and the washing machine of your heart develops the real fruit sanctification. It is a seed that has been planted in the drop center testimonial soul string wisdom. Feeling led from above grows blessings to the walk through goodness peace. Joy pays for blood cleansed righteous water trust. And we know that we know that our hand is in the hand of our knowing hand. But you heathens are too stupid to get it. You will think this was just random religious babble because you don't have the spirit sharpening your mind. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 If you Xtians are going to claim that the bible is inerrant then you have to read it for what it says rather adding to it verbally what you wish it had said. The bible (bad as it is) doesn't say these victims were evil. That'seither your idea or one from some other misguided Xtian. They are not in short supply. bill Needs to be quoted for emphasis. Yet another christian that did what End's doing now: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 True, it is POSSIBLE that everything god did in the bible is somehow morally good. As long as you're willing to pry/pries/prise (whatever the correct word), this from your brain, I'm ok. Thinking about the Noah story....wiped out a heard of folks except for someone found righteous within the day...if I am remembering. So it seems somewhat consistent that the selection of God's people was not on perfection, but those headed in the right direction morally. This tells me that NONE were without fault....as I stated earlier, we are ALL worthy of death. So you marry these ideas with today's science and given the fact that we know little about the actual genetic effects of nature and nurture, I don't know that we can say what has happened to humanity over the year genetically with respect to some morally nurtured lineage. And I think the articles I read said the changes that occur will revert back over time which also is consistent with the passage(s)....I would have to re-read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 It really appears he can't ever pry the 'god-is-good-god-is-good-god-is-good' indoctrination from his head. It's all very sad. This is why he does these morality breaking mental gymnastics in order to somehow proclaim that his god, the god that he hasn't established to be true from any other gods or religions, is good. He's like Sy Ten, who insists 'you all know god.' Which god? His of course. He's like William Lane Craig, who says 'god is good' so when he ordered the killing of children, it was somehow for their good as well. And he's like the SDA prophetess Ellen White and Mormon's Joseph Bates, who add a lot of things to what's printed on the page in order to perform his justifications. Christians, meet your fellow christian. A man so warped in his theology that he cannot see anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 WTF? Death isn't something we are worthy of. Death is the natural consequence of life. Nothing lives forever because that is not possible. There was no global flood. The idea is silly. It is impossible. It never happened. The people who invented the Noah story had no idea what the right direction on morality was. They would torture and kill goats to please imaginary beings. There is nothing moral about that. You can't marry these ideas to today's science because it doesn't fit. You can't even marry Bronze Age Jewish paganism to Iron Age Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 MM, you really think you can convince Ken Ham here? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 End3, I hate to be the one to say it, but your argument is invalid. First of all, from your own words, "we are all evil". To compare us to the god from whom absolute morality is supposed to come is therefore unfair. Whatever god would or would not have done is incomparable to the morality of those who have actually experienced humanity. Secondly, whatever any of us would have done or not done concerning Hitler, the present fact is that god let him live--a fact which cost the lives of 6.5 million of god's "chosen people". Using Hitler, who actually did commit evil atrocities, as a defense of the genocide of the Amalekites, who are only alleged by the same god to have been evil, is simply disingenuous. Lastly, it seems pretty clear that we ex-christians have demonstrated a higher morality than your god. That your defense of his atrocities sickens us is certain evidence of the fact. This argument has therefore failed. You should consider approaching your god's atrocities from a different angle. You admit that he is capable; you've admitted that he created evil and has acted upon it. That his ways are not ours is simply not a good enough defense. Try something new. It appears that by whatever means or order God guided humanity, humanity disagreed/disagrees. As you mention, God did level the playing field by sending Christ, and subsequently we have Grace. As you note and demonstrate, you are unhappy with the atrocities because of the non-human experience God had, but now that God addressed that allows suffering through evil, you whine at that too. So it appears as God's teaching mode has gone near full cycle....which also seems somewhat synonymous to asking God for another way just as you have requested that I find another approach. The fact that many are unable to agree on cause really reflects a theme of humanity IN the Bible......which makes it true to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest end3 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 WTF? Death isn't something we are worthy of. Death is the natural consequence of life. Nothing lives forever because that is not possible. There was no global flood. The idea is silly. It is impossible. It never happened. The people who invented the Noah story had no idea what the right direction on morality was. They would torture and kill goats to please imaginary beings. There is nothing moral about that. You can't marry these ideas to today's science because it doesn't fit. You can't even marry Bronze Age Jewish paganism to Iron Age Christianity. So when terrible crime are committed, we sentence people to eternal life? Get real MM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Last night I had to tell my children that Grandpa's dog died. Because I won't lie to them . . . that is why. Anyway both of them immediately went to the concept of Doggie Heaven. Because that is where Christian indoctrination leads at the early stages. It is how silly Christian indoctrination for children sounds. My oldest child was separated from Christian influence before they could fill his mind with "the Bible says" type theology. He was able to articulate that his concept of Doggie Heaven is "floating in the clouds". That is it. That is all he had. Everything that dies floats in the clouds for eternity. Can't think it through beyond that. And this nonsensical thinking is the fertile ground Christianity needs, that Christianity must create, for it's half baked concepts to take root. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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