I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest confused idiot]

There's no getting around those biblical obstacles. I'm starting to see one thing here - truth or lie, I am nearly to the point where I can't be a Christian. It's strange, many people talk about a "God-shaped hole" or some other huge void in their life that was not filled until they "found God". For me, it's the opposite. Seeking Jesus only led to complete emptiness. The more I focus on seeking Jesus, the more depressed and empty I feel. Let's see Christians explain that. But at the same time, I find it impossible to believe that this life is just some chemical accident with no meaning or purpose. I'm not saying it can't be some other god, but still, I still don't see how life could possibly have came about by itself without some kind of being outside of time having something to do with it. I've been told that just because we don't know how it got started, it doesn't mean "Goddidit". I'm really trying to understand here. But someone please explain in layman's terms, how else life, time, the universe, could have possibly STARTED (BEFORE the big bang) without some kind of life form outside of time having something to do with it? I've searched for the answer to that question. All I can find or get from anyone is "we don't know yet". That's right, we don't know - but, like I said, how does life come into exsistance by itself? How does that work? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. Then again, what the hell does it even matter? Like I said, I myself, and many others here I'm sure, can't live this Christian life, even if it is true. If the Bible is true, we're all screwed. We don't even have a choice. I don't, anyway.

I remember that "God shaped hole" analogy. It never carried much weight with me. It's just a part of the Christian mythology. It's succinct and it carries the promise of solving all your existential problems. Just get Jesus, get the holy spirit and all that angst will just evaporate. It's a good tactic. It will even work for some. A larger number won't experience the completeness of having that god shaped hole filled, but they won't say anything lest they seem like a second-class church member. Many will quietly melt away, not having experienced that "spiritual healing," get discouraged and try other pursuits. They are the quiet outliers that nobody in Christianity really considers. They get a lot of leverage out of the "god shaped hole" gambit.

 

I could be wrong, but it seems like maybe you had a hole to fill before you fell deeply into Christianity and maybe you still have a hole to fill. Questions about origins are maybe secondary to this issue.

 

So, at this point, I want to ask a question. It sounds silly and I am not being flippant. What purpose does being aware of a purpose serve?

 

More questions. Which is more important: fulfilling a purpose or being aware of your purpose? Some people are driven - like they are on a mission. But is that something we all need to have? Maybe we are fulfilling a purpose automatically as part of a biologically ingrained imperative. Do we HAVE to be aware of some purpose for life to be good?

 

Does this perceived purpose have to come from some force outside of ourselves? Why couldn't it be sufficient for you to determine your own meaning and purpose when you're ready to do so?

 

Hmm.... Did I have that void before I fell deep into Christianity? I don't know. All I know is, back then, when I was younger and didn't think on these things, life was good. Very good. I miss those days.

 

"What purpose does being aware of a purpose serve?" Hmm... I don't know. For me, all that's driving me in that direction is the fear tactics - hell, judgement, etc.

 

"Which is more important: fulfilling a purpose or being aware of your purpose?" Hmm... Good question. Again, I don't really know. But for some reason, I want to say being aware of it is more important.

 

"Does this perceived purpose have to come from some force outside of ourselves? Why couldn't it be sufficient for you to determine your own meaning and purpose when you're ready to do so?" This, very much, is what I would like to do. Make my own purpose.

 

There's no getting around those biblical obstacles. I'm starting to see one thing here - truth or lie, I am nearly to the point where I can't be a Christian. It's strange, many people talk about a "God-shaped hole" or some other huge void in their life that was not filled until they "found God". For me, it's the opposite. Seeking Jesus only led to complete emptiness. The more I focus on seeking Jesus, the more depressed and empty I feel. Let's see Christians explain that. But at the same time, I find it impossible to believe that this life is just some chemical accident with no meaning or purpose. I'm not saying it can't be some other god, but still, I still don't see how life could possibly have came about by itself without some kind of being outside of time having something to do with it. I've been told that just because we don't know how it got started, it doesn't mean "Goddidit". I'm really trying to understand here. But someone please explain in layman's terms, how else life, time, the universe, could have possibly STARTED (BEFORE the big bang) without some kind of life form outside of time having something to do with it? I've searched for the answer to that question. All I can find or get from anyone is "we don't know yet". That's right, we don't know - but, like I said, how does life come into exsistance by itself? How does that work? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. Then again, what the hell does it even matter? Like I said, I myself, and many others here I'm sure, can't live this Christian life, even if it is true. If the Bible is true, we're all screwed. We don't even have a choice. I don't, anyway.

The scientific questions are not just interesting, but absolutely fascinating. I consider them to be largely irrelevent to the issue of "gods" because wherever I look, I see nature doing what nature does. There isn't a god, for example, that leads to cell division. It is a natural process that, although complex, operates entirely on physical and chemical principles. How do I know? First, we know what chemicals are involved from the simplest elements to the most complex molecules, and we know the shapes of cells, organelles and all the little bits in the cells. Second, we know what it takes to screw things up. Add it little of some substance that is like the natural stuff (but is man-made) and you see the chemical treated like it was natural, and it's like throwing a wrench into the works. That's basically what medicine is, and I'm a doctor, so I deal with the ways that medicines interfere sith or improve the natural function of the body and its cells.

 

All of the "chemicals of life" are naturally occurring which means that if you take a bunch of chemicals in their simple forms and mix them together, you wind up with more complex chemicals found in nature. Atoms and molecules follow rules like Leggos. That's why they are called "building blocks of life."

 

The interesting thing is that all of the possible chemicals that form don't all fit together. It's like mixing multiple puzzles together, or having one puzzle and a bunch of leftover pieces from many other puzzles. The puzzle parts that fit find one another as though they had magnets attached (which they do - positive and negative charges). In time, since they can only fit together certain ways naturally, they naturally - fit together. The ones that don't fit together are left out of the puzzle.

 

I think that you are looking at a long journey and perhaps you can see the first step, but you are having problems understanding, "How can such a long journey be accomplished with something as simple and short as a single step?"

 

Did you see the Stephen Hawking special on aliens the other day? He briefly touched on abiogenesis - the chemical beginnings of life - and even considered how different chemicals or different temperatures might have led to totally different kinds of life - depending on the chemistry.

 

The dances of chemicals are like dances of clouds in the wind - beautiful, natural and part of the cycles of life. Complicated little snowflakes self-assemble based entirely on physical and chemical properties, and they are unique, different and beautiful, but transitory. So are we.

 

I get evolution, but what I don't get is how it could have started at the very beginning of time without a life form higher than ourselves. If I could find the answer to this question - not how DID it start without a creator - but how it COULD have possibly started without a creator - THEN I could start to see atheism from a different perspective, and start considering that as a possibility. Until then, I don't see it.

[ShallowByThyGame]

Did you watch the video I posted here?

 

After studying abiogenesis(the theory of the origin of life) I've become convinced that life is can be formed from chemicals under the right circumstances. It's true we will never be able to travel back in time to confirm it, but that theory is more valid than 'God did it' in my opinion since it references phenomena we can understand and measure(simple proteins and acids).

 

As far as the Big Bang...Could cavemen have imagined how a sun works before nuclear fission was understood? Were people right to worship the sun until it was proven that it was not a God? The physics of the big bang may not be known yet, but why is it logical to assume there is not a property of time, space, and matter that explains it? When every other thing in the universe has been controlled by properties of time, space, and matter? Why does the God theory get special treatment, when it's been proven wrong over and over again every time it's been applied to a physical phenomenon?

 

That said, I'd still be quite happy if all theists believed that the creation of the Universe was simply God exploding himself. And if you want to cling to a creator God, sure, but there are so many more assumptions to be made to assume that the God cares about humanity, can communicate with it, judges us every day, etc.

[Guest confused idiot]

Did you watch the video I posted here?

 

After studying abiogenesis(the theory of the origin of life) I've become convinced that life is can be formed from chemicals under the right circumstances. It's true we will never be able to travel back in time to confirm it, but that theory is more valid than 'God did it' in my opinion since it references phenomena we can understand and measure(simple proteins and acids).

 

As far as the Big Bang...Could cavemen have imagined how a sun works before nuclear fission was understood? Were people right to worship the sun until it was proven that it was not a God? The physics of the big bang may not be known yet, but why is it logical to assume there is not a property of time, space, and matter that explains it? When every other thing in the universe has been controlled by properties of time, space, and matter? Why does the God theory get special treatment, when it's been proven wrong over and over again every time it's been applied to a physical phenomenon?

 

That said, I'd still be quite happy if all theists believed that the creation of the Universe was simply God exploding himself. And if you want to cling to a creator God, sure, but there are so many more assumptions to be made to assume that the God cares about humanity, can communicate with it, judges us every day, etc.

 

I thought I had watched all the videos that were recommended to me, but I guess I was wrong. I must have missed that one. Still, though, I'm having a hard time understanding it. I'm glad to know now about the term "abiogenesis" and what it means, so now maybe I can start looking at that more.

[Shyone]

I get evolution, but what I don't get is how it could have started at the very beginning of time without a life form higher than ourselves. If I could find the answer to this question - not how DID it start without a creator - but how it COULD have possibly started without a creator - THEN I could start to see atheism from a different perspective, and start considering that as a possibility. Until then, I don't see it.

I guess I'm not being clear. I'm trying to convey abiogenesis, not evolution. The very start of life - basic chemical reactions.

 

The Stephen Hawking show on the Discovery Channel addressed this very issue, and it is not that hard to understand.

 

Carbon binds with Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and other basic chemicals. They tend to form certain patterns because they connect together like Leggos. These "patterns" (which are molecules) can stick together with other molecules in the same ways, and you get longer or larger molecules. Trillions and trillions and trillions of chemical reactions later, and one combination lines up that attracts another line and the second line sticks together for the same reasons as the first. And then peels away - a copy of the first. Hmmm. Self reproducing chemicals.

 

That, in essence, is life. Life without cells, without any unnatural (or supernatural) intervention.

 

Once that happened, there were further changes. Some of these molecules just kept on making others like it, while others got lengthened - and then reproduced. All different combinations of the chemicals that could stick together (and were naturally occurring) did so, and trillions of trillions of trillions of reactions later, and you have something a little more complicated.

 

Remember that we are speaking of only 4 basic compounds here. It's like Leggos with only for Leggo shapes and a very limited possible number of ways they can combine.

 

A whole book could be written about how these compounds came together and either flopped or succeeded in continuing. The flops just - flopped. The successes either continued as they were or, in some cases, did something different.

 

Today, this basic chemical foundation of life is still the only game in town. Four ribonucleic acids, four corresponding deoxyribonucleic acids, and a smattering (20) of amino acids. That's it! The whole shebang!

 

Describing the changes from the first chain of nucleic acids to the first protein shell that stuck to the nucleic acid chain would take about 500 pages of writing, and from that to the first proteins that made the Kreb's cycle another 2000 pages, but by then you can see a recognizable structure - call it a bacterium or a virus - and the competition was on. Another 2000 pages of this book and you have primitive cells and the more successful cells reproduced, the others just sat there and decayed. Only the cells that reproduced kept on reproducing, and every now and then a subtle change would occur. Trillions and trillions of little changes among trillions and trillion and trillions of these primitive cells, and you see some successes and many many failures. Only the successes kept on reproducing making organisms that continued. For eons, there was nothing but slime cells, until some slime cell "merged" with other slime cells, and those could do things a single cell couldn't.

 

If pages turned into years, you could see that the progress, based on simple chemicals combining in various ways, would take billions of years, and life changed ever so slowly for these billions of years. The cells that joined together and could utilize the natural resources more efficiently survived, the others either died or were consumed (because when there were enough cells to compete, the use of existing resources - other cells - was easier than waiting for basic elements). The first cell to kill another cell was the first Cain killing the first Abel, and nature changed forever.

 

So we eat animals that eat smaller animals that eat insects that eat plants that take nutrition from the soil.

 

Or we can eat the smaller animals, or the insects, or the plants (in some cases). We are large parasites existing on the substrate of the simplest forms of life, but we also have parasites that feed on us - and everything we eat.

 

Nature, red in tooth and claw is the result of competition for natural resources - to get the materials to make cells, to be more efficient, to survive. If we don't survive, we don't exist - as people, or as a species.

 

But we do exist. Here we are.

[Guest confused idiot]

I get evolution, but what I don't get is how it could have started at the very beginning of time without a life form higher than ourselves. If I could find the answer to this question - not how DID it start without a creator - but how it COULD have possibly started without a creator - THEN I could start to see atheism from a different perspective, and start considering that as a possibility. Until then, I don't see it.

I guess I'm not being clear. I'm trying to convey abiogenesis, not evolution. The very start of life - basic chemical reactions.

 

The Stephen Hawking show on the Discovery Channel addressed this very issue, and it is not that hard to understand.

 

Carbon binds with Hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen and other basic chemicals. They tend to form certain patterns because they connect together like Leggos. These "patterns" (which are molecules) can stick together with other molecules in the same ways, and you get longer or larger molecules. Trillions and trillions and trillions of chemical reactions later, and one combination lines up that attracts another line and the second line sticks together for the same reasons as the first. And then peels away - a copy of the first. Hmmm. Self reproducing chemicals.

 

That, in essence, is life. Life without cells, without any unnatural (or supernatural) intervention.

 

Once that happened, there were further changes. Some of these molecules just kept on making others like it, while others got lengthened - and then reproduced. All different combinations of the chemicals that could stick together (and were naturally occurring) did so, and trillions of trillions of trillions of reactions later, and you have something a little more complicated.

 

Remember that we are speaking of only 4 basic compounds here. It's like Leggos with only for Leggo shapes and a very limited possible number of ways they can combine.

 

A whole book could be written about how these compounds came together and either flopped or succeeded in continuing. The flops just - flopped. The successes either continued as they were or, in some cases, did something different.

 

Today, this basic chemical foundation of life is still the only game in town. Four ribonucleic acids, four corresponding deoxyribonucleic acids, and a smattering (20) of amino acids. That's it! The whole shebang!

 

Describing the changes from the first chain of nucleic acids to the first protein shell that stuck to the nucleic acid chain would take about 500 pages of writing, and from that to the first proteins that made the Kreb's cycle another 2000 pages, but by then you can see a recognizable structure - call it a bacterium or a virus - and the competition was on. Another 2000 pages of this book and you have primitive cells and the more successful cells reproduced, the others just sat there and decayed. Only the cells that reproduced kept on reproducing, and every now and then a subtle change would occur. Trillions and trillions of little changes among trillions and trillion and trillions of these primitive cells, and you see some successes and many many failures. Only the successes kept on reproducing making organisms that continued. For eons, there was nothing but slime cells, until some slime cell "merged" with other slime cells, and those could do things a single cell couldn't.

 

If pages turned into years, you could see that the progress, based on simple chemicals combining in various ways, would take billions of years, and life changed ever so slowly for these billions of years. The cells that joined together and could utilize the natural resources more efficiently survived, the others either died or were consumed (because when there were enough cells to compete, the use of existing resources - other cells - was easier than waiting for basic elements). The first cell to kill another cell was the first Cain killing the first Abel, and nature changed forever.

 

So we eat animals that eat smaller animals that eat insects that eat plants that take nutrition from the soil.

 

Or we can eat the smaller animals, or the insects, or the plants (in some cases). We are large parasites existing on the substrate of the simplest forms of life, but we also have parasites that feed on us - and everything we eat.

 

Nature, red in tooth and claw is the result of competition for natural resources - to get the materials to make cells, to be more efficient, to survive. If we don't survive, we don't exist - as people, or as a species.

 

But we do exist. Here we are.

 

This stuff is more than I can even comprehend. Honestly, not trying to be stubborn, I still don't get it.

[wonder]

confused, you cant let go of christianity/religion because you 'know we came from somewhere.' but x-tianity is driving you crazy with its crazy stories and rules in the bible. can you just accept that we did come from somewhere but drop christianity. and if you drop christianity could you join some other religion. but what if that religion starts driving you crazy too. if that happens then youre probably gonna have to drop religion altogether, while at the same time knowing we came from somewhere. me, as an atheist know we came from somewhere too, but it doesnt keep me up at night.

it doesnt matter to me where we came from. all i know is im here now and i want to live the best life i can now without worrying about whats gonna happen after i die.

 

but will dropping religion, while at the same time knowing we came from somewhere, drive you crazy too. if so, then youre stuck and there may not be any help for you. you may have to let the 'driving you crazy' thing runs it course in your life. your own mind is blocking you (your programming by fear of hell). until your own mind lets go of what its hanging on to then you may have to just let yourself go 'mad' and see what happens when that runs its course, see whats behind that door. i know its miserable to be in the dilemma youre in. believe me i know.

 

i said to hell with all that crap (no pun intended) and just accepted that none of it exists. thats the only way i got relief. if you cant do that then there may not be any hope for you buddy. i guess you tried praying already. and where did that get you?

[Guest confused idiot]

confused, you cant let go of christianity/religion because you 'know we came from somewhere.' but x-tianity is driving you crazy with its crazy stories and rules in the bible. can you just accept that we did come from somewhere but drop christianity. and if you drop christianity could you join some other religion. but what if that religion starts driving you crazy too. if that happens then youre probably gonna have to drop religion altogether, while at the same time knowing we came from somewhere. me, as an atheist know we came from somewhere too, but it doesnt keep me up at night.

it doesnt matter to me where we came from. all i know is im here now and i want to live the best life i can now without worrying about whats gonna happen after i die.

 

but will dropping religion, while at the same time knowing we came from somewhere, drive you crazy too. if so, then youre stuck and there may not be any help for you. you may have to let the 'driving you crazy' thing runs it course in your life. your own mind is blocking you (your programming by fear of hell). until your own mind lets go of what its hanging on to then you may have to just let yourself go 'mad' and see what happens when that runs its course, see whats behind that door. i know its miserable to be in the dilemma youre in. believe me i know.

 

i said to hell with all that crap (no pun intended) and just accepted that none of it exists. thats the only way i got relief. if you cant do that then there may not be any hope for you buddy. i guess you tried praying already. and where did that get you?

 

I'm sick of religion. If I drop this religion, there's no way I'm going looking for another one. Really, I don't even care anymore. I don't care. Religion has wasted a portion of my life, it has given me nothing but anxiety, depression, fear, confusion, and endless guilt, without a way out of it. I'm tired of it. I don't care if it's true or not. I can't pretend to love a set of beliefs that I hate deep down inside. That won't change. I'll always hate religion in my heart, because of how it fucks people up. I'll give it a little bit longer, but if nothing changes... I will probably become an ex-Christian.

[skepticalme]

 

This stuff is more than I can even comprehend. Honestly, not trying to be stubborn, I still don't get it.

 

I think the problem is that when people try to visualize these processes they create a false dicotomy in their minds of what happens. They try to visuallize life coming from non-life in the same way they try to visuallize one species evolving into another. They try to do it in a single step as though there is clear boundary between the two. In reality there is no boundary, only a continous spectrum across the transition. Its like looking at a rainbow and asking where does red turn into blue. We know that certain molecules can make copies of themselves. Are these molecules dead or alive? They are neither, but something in between. Non-living components doing lifelike things, in this case, reproduce.

 

Take a look at his video and keep in mind that THESE ARE MOLECULES, groups of atoms.

 

[Sconnor]

What "good things" in christianity can't be done without it?

The Love of Jesus

This harkens back to this 33 page thread here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/34759-the-love-of-jesus/

 

Remember that? I think that whole 644 post thread stands as a response to this. Care to add a few more posts to it with me? I'll have more to add.

 

Um, I may have said that on purpose...lol. Bring it when you're ready.

 

Why don't you address my last post, first?

 

And while you're at it, how about addressing my last post on The Problem With Pain thread.................

 

--S.

You keep saying the same stuff over and over....

 

Christian, "It's called faith for a reason"

 

Scott, "You DO NOT have objective proof of your idosnycratic...blah, blah, who gives a shit blah blah".

 

Christian, "Give me the methodology that science uses for proof there is no God"

 

Scott, "MORE bullshit excuses for you not having anything tied to reality in you idosycratic blah blah...don't give a shit..blah blah".

 

Christian, "Give me something from your side of the fence Scott".

 

Scott, "YOUR the one with the OUTLANDISH claims, so the burden of PROOF by objective evidence.....that YOU HAVE NONE....idosyncratic....who gives a shit...blah blah blah blah".

 

Maybe that is all you have or can do right now...I don't know.

 

I double dog dare.....no, TRIPLE dog dare you to say something different.

 

(pardon the breech of dog dare ediquette....going straight to the triple dog dare)

 

Sorry -- I have been gone; on business.

 

Better late then never.

 

Jesus , end -- this one post alone (of yours above) says it all.

 

It's perfectly obvious, what is being said (and what has been said) is completely lost on you; You have habitually failed to grasp our points, as evidenced by your post here, which is why I and the other posters have to constantly bang our arguments into your head.

 

And if and until it can sink in; and you can fully comprehend what is being said, we will have to say the same things over and over again.

 

It's mind boggling that you still appeal to your fallacious: "science can't prove god doesn't exist" argument.

 

1. First, I was NOT arguing the existence of god. I wanted you to provide objective evidence for your assertion: "the love of Jesus". Again, your only option was to diverge by bringing up a strawman.

 

2. Additionally, science does not concern itself with the supernatural and makes no claims of the existence of gods, either way. Do you understand?

 

3. Considering my side of the fence: I'm not the one making the outlandish claims without substantiating them. I have said in other posts -- I make no positive declaration that there is NO god. A deity or some ultimate reality may very well exist but so far no objective evidence has been offered for ANY god-concept existing -- including yours.

 

You are the one who believes in the christian god and asks us to take your word on it that Jesus is real, the claims of the bible and christianity are true and your particular superstitions have a reference in reality -- without providing a shred of objective evidence.

 

4. It's a fallacious argument to ask to prove that something doesn't exist. Case in point; please prove that Allah, Thor, Zeus and invisible fairies don't exist and then I'll use your method to prove your god doesn't exist. Did you really try and think about that? Are your synapses firing? You must fully comprehend these easy to understand concepts -- otherwise we will continually bring them up again and again until it finally penetrates your dome.

 

So, I'm still waiting for you to verify your claim: "the love of Jesus". has any reference in reality

 

As it stands now -- your claim resides with the kooky unsubstantiated claims of other belief systems such as, scientologists believing aliens called thetans possessed our bodies or that an arch angel gave the final testament of god in the form of the qur'an, etc.

 

If you can NOT provide objective evidence for your claim then you still have NOT answered my question: What "good things" in christianity can't be done without it?

 

And while we're at it please provide objective evidence for the staple of your belief system: the resurrection. Please provide objective evidence that someone can be dead and buried for three days only to be resurrected -- alive and well and then provide objective evidence that this action and your particular christian criteria removes sin and saves. I've asked you time and time again to provide objective evidence for this but you ALWAYS ignore it -- go figure?!?

 

As far as faith is concerned -- this is nothing but a another rationalization that you fall back on time and time again. It allows you to believe in the unbelievable without substantiating ANYTHING.

 

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Mark Twain

 

"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." -- F M Knowles

 

To reiterate and bolster my assertion -- FAITH is a deplorable method of obtaining and processing information; consider the devout Muslim: they too use faith to make extraordinary claims about Allah and how they experience him and have a, spiritual connection to him, that runs through their life and they pray and talk to him too.

 

Both you and the devout Muslim RATIONALIZE that god has an interest in them but amazingly their god-concept contradicts your god-concept because ALL you and the devout muslim have done is to make-up (rationalize) how god works in your lives. Your god-concept only exists in the confines of your imagination. You, both, rationalize what his supposed commands are and you, both, rationalize what his will and character is by your own particular interpretation of scripture -- NEVER providing an iota of objective evidence that god had ANYTHING to with the bible or the Qur'an.

 

Curious, how both you and the devout muslim make outlandish claims you can't substantiate with objective evidence and then without blinking an eye, fall back on your precious albeit delusional FAITH.

 

So --no -- end, I'm NOT going say something different until you thoroughly comprehend the easy to understand arguments we have presented, which you miserably failed to digest.

 

--S.

[Guest confused idiot]

At this point... I don't think I could go back if I wanted to. I may end up losing my family and friends, but if that's how it's gotta go down, so be it. But I'm still stuck. Just as stuck as I was when I started posting here. Just as stuck as I was when it all began. I have to either break away from it and run away, or pursue it with everything I've got. I have to do one or the other. I can't stay stuck and stand in a neutral position like I have for so long. Like I said, I don't think I could pursue any kind of religion with all my heart at this point if I wanted to. But I don't know how to break away from it. I can't pursue it, I can't break away from it. I'm stuck... It'll be tough, because it's not just on a intellectual basis for me.. I'm not one of your typical smart, educated, bookworm type people... I can read about science, but half the time I don't even understand what I'm reading. I don't give a damn about education or knowledge, but I don't think I can fully break free without those things. So there may not be much hope for me until I get off my ass and try to learn something.

[Crazy Donna]

At this point... I don't think I could go back if I wanted to. I may end up losing my family and friends, but if that's how it's gotta go down, so be it. But I'm still stuck. Just as stuck as I was when I started posting here. Just as stuck as I was when it all began. I have to either break away from it and run away, or pursue it with everything I've got. I have to do one or the other. I can't stay stuck and stand in a neutral position like I have for so long. Like I said, I don't think I could pursue any kind of religion with all my heart at this point if I wanted to. But I don't know how to break away from it. I can't pursue it, I can't break away from it. I'm stuck... It'll be tough, because it's not just on a intellectual basis for me.. I'm not one of your typical smart, educated, bookworm type people... I can read about science, but half the time I don't even understand what I'm reading. I don't give a damn about education or knowledge, but I don't think I can fully break free without those things. So there may not be much hope for me until I get off my ass and try to learn something.

 

I found that learning about science really opened my eyes to the fakery of christianity. It seems really, really daunting, because there is so much to learn, but once you start learning a little bit, it gets easier.

 

If it's really, really hard for you to understand, don't worry. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your intellect. You just have to take bite size pieces. I found youtube videos about evolution really useful. Just browse around. Just be careful to watch vids that are from reputable scientists, not creationists, because they will just feed you a load of lies. I'm serious. For christians, they seem pretty ambivalent about lying or misrepresenting reality.

 

I'd look at videos on abiogenesis (big greek word meaning how life started) and evolution. Use those as your key words. Just take it a little bit at a time.

[Guest confused idiot]

At this point... I don't think I could go back if I wanted to. I may end up losing my family and friends, but if that's how it's gotta go down, so be it. But I'm still stuck. Just as stuck as I was when I started posting here. Just as stuck as I was when it all began. I have to either break away from it and run away, or pursue it with everything I've got. I have to do one or the other. I can't stay stuck and stand in a neutral position like I have for so long. Like I said, I don't think I could pursue any kind of religion with all my heart at this point if I wanted to. But I don't know how to break away from it. I can't pursue it, I can't break away from it. I'm stuck... It'll be tough, because it's not just on a intellectual basis for me.. I'm not one of your typical smart, educated, bookworm type people... I can read about science, but half the time I don't even understand what I'm reading. I don't give a damn about education or knowledge, but I don't think I can fully break free without those things. So there may not be much hope for me until I get off my ass and try to learn something.

 

I found that learning about science really opened my eyes to the fakery of christianity. It seems really, really daunting, because there is so much to learn, but once you start learning a little bit, it gets easier.

 

If it's really, really hard for you to understand, don't worry. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your intellect. You just have to take bite size pieces. I found youtube videos about evolution really useful. Just browse around. Just be careful to watch vids that are from reputable scientists, not creationists, because they will just feed you a load of lies. I'm serious. For christians, they seem pretty ambivalent about lying or misrepresenting reality.

 

I'd look at videos on abiogenesis (big greek word meaning how life started) and evolution. Use those as your key words. Just take it a little bit at a time.

 

Will do.

 

You know, for a while, whenever I'd talk to someone seeking some spiritual advice, they would recommend meds after getting to know my situation a bit better. They would basically admit that they don't know what else to say, and recommend an anti-depressant, thinking that my problem is with my way of thinking. I resisted that for a while, not wanting to take that because I felt like it would take away what little faith I had left. I put my faith in God, hoping he would change whatever needed changing, and kept on resisting the meds. Time went on, and worse I got. I finally realized that whatever I was doing wasn't working. I gave in and tried Lexapro. I personally didn't think it would help, because I didn't think that the problem was a chemical imbalance like everyone else did. But I figured I would try it anyway. At the very least, it would prove everyone wrong if it didn't work. Now, I've been on Lexapro for a month, and I'm worse than ever, not even a slight improvement. The doctor said I would start feeling better in around 2 weeks. I went back today and she was surprised that there was no improvement. She switched me to Zoloft, and I'm going to try that for a while. I'll try it, no problem, I've got nothing to lose. But, as I was telling everyone in the first place, I don't think there's ANYTHING wrong with my perceptions of Christianity. I think I'm seeing it for what it really is, and THAT is what is depressing me. No one will fully believe me when I say this, but one thing I'm sure of is that religion is definitely the root of my depression and anxiety. I have no doubt. This thing about the drugs only proves that more, I think.

[Crazy Donna]

There is nothing wrong with taking antidepressants, and I think you are on to something. Antidepressants are very good for people who are just depressed because they have a chemical problem in their brain. However, you actually have a legitimate reason to be depressed, at least for a while. You're grieving for your prior understanding of christianity, and you're anxious about the consequences of your changing beliefs. I get the feeling that perhaps because of that, you just have to give it time to heal. The antidepressants might help a bit, but time, and understanding, will also help. You'll get over it. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you will. In ten years, this will just be a rough time in your life that you look back on. And don't worry about the pills not working, sometimes you have to try a few before you find one that likes you.

 

One thing I know for certain, is that god doesn't fix mental illness. Depression isn't usually permanent, and as you get your head around some of this, you will probably find that your depression will run it's course naturally. The drugs might help. It's like a headache tablet. It relieves some of the pain so you can get on with doing important stuff.

 

Your perception of christianity is right on the money, and other people don't want to recognise that, so they try to switch the focus to something else. There may be instances where people just deflect the blame to other things in your life, instead of christianity. I know christianity made me pretty depressed. I only started dealing with it when I saw christianity for the mindfuck it is. Deal with the christianity, and you'll feel better. There's no reason to rush, just do things at your own pace. We're always here for you to have a chat to, too.

[Guest confused idiot]

There is nothing wrong with taking antidepressants, and I think you are on to something. Antidepressants are very good for people who are just depressed because they have a chemical problem in their brain. However, you actually have a legitimate reason to be depressed, at least for a while. You're grieving for your prior understanding of christianity, and you're anxious about the consequences of your changing beliefs. I get the feeling that perhaps because of that, you just have to give it time to heal. The antidepressants might help a bit, but time, and understanding, will also help. You'll get over it. I know it doesn't feel like it now, but you will. In ten years, this will just be a rough time in your life that you look back on. And don't worry about the pills not working, sometimes you have to try a few before you find one that likes you.

 

One thing I know for certain, is that god doesn't fix mental illness. Depression isn't usually permanent, and as you get your head around some of this, you will probably find that your depression will run it's course naturally. The drugs might help. It's like a headache tablet. It relieves some of the pain so you can get on with doing important stuff.

 

Your perception of christianity is right on the money, and other people don't want to recognise that, so they try to switch the focus to something else. There may be instances where people just deflect the blame to other things in your life, instead of christianity. I know christianity made me pretty depressed. I only started dealing with it when I saw christianity for the mindfuck it is. Deal with the christianity, and you'll feel better. There's no reason to rush, just do things at your own pace. We're always here for you to have a chat to, too.

 

I know. I have nothing against anti-depressants. It's just that it seems like everyone I know is all "You need medicine, you have a chemical imbalance, you're not seeing things right." Chemical imbalance or not, I'm seeing things for exactly what they are. That's making me depressed. I'm not depressed for no reason. If it wasn't for what religion has done to my mind, I wouldn't be like this. I know I wouldn't. I still don't know what direction to go in, but I have learned a lot throughout this experience. Not scientific or intellectual "booksmart" type things, but just about religion, how it works, what it does to people, how it makes people think and reason. I know it's screwed me up pretty bad. I'm just trying to figure out why. Maybe it's supposed to be depressing, and God made it like that on purpose. Maybe it's complete bullshit, and all in my head. Maybe it's true, but my perception of it is completely wrong. Maybe there's actually no God, and I'm just not able to see it yet. Maybe some other religion is the truth. Maybe God is fully real, but not a deity of any kind of religion. Maybe he's knowable, in a personal way. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he is involved deeply in people's lives. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he loves us all. Maybe he hates us all. Maybe he loves some of us, and hates some of us. I'm not sure about these things. I'm still trying to figure these things out. Maybe I'll figure some of this out, maybe I won't. We'll see. Only time will tell.

 

I appreciate the advice and support.

[Phanta]

I know. I have nothing against anti-depressants. It's just that it seems like everyone I know is all "You need medicine, you have a chemical imbalance, you're not seeing things right." Chemical imbalance or not, I'm seeing things for exactly what they are. That's making me depressed. I'm not depressed for no reason. If it wasn't for what religion has done to my mind, I wouldn't be like this. I know I wouldn't. I still don't know what direction to go in, but I have learned a lot throughout this experience. Not scientific or intellectual "booksmart" type things, but just about religion, how it works, what it does to people, how it makes people think and reason. I know it's screwed me up pretty bad. I'm just trying to figure out why. Maybe it's supposed to be depressing, and God made it like that on purpose. Maybe it's complete bullshit, and all in my head. Maybe it's true, but my perception of it is completely wrong. Maybe there's actually no God, and I'm just not able to see it yet. Maybe some other religion is the truth. Maybe God is fully real, but not a deity of any kind of religion. Maybe he's knowable, in a personal way. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he is involved deeply in people's lives. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he loves us all. Maybe he hates us all. Maybe he loves some of us, and hates some of us. I'm not sure about these things. I'm still trying to figure these things out. Maybe I'll figure some of this out, maybe I won't. We'll see. Only time will tell.

 

I appreciate the advice and support.

 

Common guidance is that depression is best approached through quality counseling in combination with drugs (if appropriate). It's clear you have real issues to work out. Meds might take the edge off (or not), but you clearly have some real issues to work through around religion. For most people, meds aren't a magic solution. You sound really clear-headed around what is going on for you.

 

Phanta

[NotBlinded]

I'm just trying to figure out why. Maybe it's supposed to be depressing, and God made it like that on purpose. Maybe it's complete bullshit, and all in my head. Maybe it's true, but my perception of it is completely wrong. Maybe there's actually no God, and I'm just not able to see it yet. Maybe some other religion is the truth. Maybe God is fully real, but not a deity of any kind of religion. Maybe he's knowable, in a personal way. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he is involved deeply in people's lives. Maybe he's not at all. Maybe he loves us all. Maybe he hates us all. Maybe he loves some of us, and hates some of us. I'm not sure about these things. I'm still trying to figure these things out. Maybe I'll figure some of this out, maybe I won't. We'll see. Only time will tell.

 

I appreciate the advice and support.

CI,

 

These are questions that anyone that has ever allowed themselves to honestly seek truth anywhere are faced with.

 

Man’s world is manifold, and his attitudes are manifold. What is manifold is often frightening because it is not neat and simple. Men prefer to forget how many possibilities are open to them. They like to be told that there are two worlds and two ways. This is comforting because it is so tidy. Almost always one way turns out to be common and the other is celebrated as superior. Those who tell of two ways and praise one are recognised as prophets or great teachers. They save men from confusion and hard choices. They offer a single choice that is easy to make because those who do not take the path that is commended to them live a wretched life. To walk on this path may be difficult, but the choice is easy, and to hear the celebration of the path is pleasant. Wisdom offers simple schemes, but truth is not so simple.

—Walter Kaufmann

 

There is fear in insecurity, but there is also an overwhelming sense of freedom in knowing that no one knows the answers. We can live perfectly happy lives being insecure.

 

It must be obvious... that there is a contradiction in wanting to be perfectly secure in a universe whose very nature is momentariness and fluidity.

Alan Watts

 

See if you can let it go and enjoy yourself with these questions. Don't look so hard for something to cling to. It's the clinging itself that can cause you to suffer when it vanishes.

 

Belief is clinging, faith is letting go.

Alan Watts

 

A book that I enjoyed is by Alan Watts called The Wisdom of Insecurity.

[Guest confused idiot]

It may be too late for me to break free. I've indoctrinated myself to such an extent that even if I did break free of religion, I think I would still be depressed all the time. Fear is holding me back from taking the final step of faith into the unknown. In the back of my mind, no matter what I learn about it, I still believe Christianity to be true for some reason. I still believe it. I don't know why, but I do. In the back of my mind, I feel like I'm setting myself up to be deceived. Like I said, I'm indoctrinated to such an extent that I don't know if I can get out. Or maybe it's not indoctrination, but conviction.... I don't know. Religion is a total mindfuck. I'll be honest, I didn't come here and start posting because I didn't believe anymore and needed support, I came here as a wounded semi-Christian fool who doesn't even WANT to believe. It's not that I want to be some huge sinner. I want to be my own person, but at the same time I still want to be a decent human being. I don't want to murder anybody. I don't want to sleep with some guy's wife. I don't want to steal anything. I don't want to be a liar. I want to be a decent guy. But I don't want to be a brainwashed mindless confused angry wimpy effiminate religious pushover. A new testament Christian can't even be assertive. Jesus said to let people walk all over you, take all your stuff, beat you up, and you're not even supposed to complain about it, much less man up and do something about it. It all sounds way too sissified and effiminate to me. I've got nothing against good morals, but when something starts to chip away at your masculinity, that's where I draw the line. I feel sorry for Christian women who are married to "real" dedicated Christian men. Because if they're following all the rules like they're supposed to, that man won't protect his wife worth shit. "Give unto those who ask".... Someone demands to rape your wife? Hand her over. That's what Jesus wants, right? Not to man up and protect her, even if it means kicking that man's ass, but to be meek and gentle, letting him do as he wishes to your wife. That REALLY pisses me off.

[Guest confused idiot]

I've been thinking. In my heart, I know that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. Has to be. As for what that "something" is, I'm not sure yet. This life can't be an accident. I'll leave it at that.

[NotBlinded]

I've been thinking. In my heart, I know that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. Has to be. As for what that "something" is, I'm not sure yet. This life can't be an accident. I'll leave it at that.

There is nothing wrong with that. Be an explorer and search as much and as often as you wish.

[wonder]

brainwashed mindless confused angry wimpy effiminate religious pushover. this is what the bible wants you to be. i see why youre all messed up. youre forced into believing, but you definitely cant follow that part of it.

[oddbird1963]

This life can't be an accident.

 

 

I agree with what NotBlinded said. I hope you enjoy your journey and your search.

 

With that said, exactly WHY can't this life be an accident?

[Guest confused idiot]

This life can't be an accident.

 

 

I agree with what NotBlinded said. I hope you enjoy your journey and your search.

 

With that said, exactly WHY can't this life be an accident?

 

Because it just doesn't make sense to me. No matter how much I look at it with an open mind, it doesn't even seem possible to me that this life could be just a chemical accident that spawned from nothing.

[skepticalme]

I've been thinking. In my heart, I know that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. Has to be. As for what that "something" is, I'm not sure yet. This life can't be an accident. I'll leave it at that.

 

I have a problem with the, "If god didn't do it it's an accident" concept. I hear it used frequently by creationist and atheist alike. "Accident" is a loaded word that implies something is the result of a mistake, so it already carries a negative connotation. Accidents can only come from a thinking/decision making entity. The only way life can be an accident is if there WAS a deity who did not intend for life to exist. If a storm washes a boulder down a hill, did it fall on accident? No, it is simply the result of interactions between natural forces/processes. It is neither the result of accidents nor is it design. Saying life is an accident in the absence of god creates a false dicotomy. Life is the result of interactions between natural processes. The only purpose is the one you make.

 

CI, your heart doesn't tell you what there is, it tells you what you want there to be. Creationist let their emotions lead them to an answer THEN they use their minds to rationalize that answer. That process gives you an answer that "feels right" not one that "is right".

[Ouroboros]

Because it just doesn't make sense to me. No matter how much I look at it with an open mind, it doesn't even seem possible to me that this life could be just a chemical accident that spawned from nothing.

First of all, "accident" is a bit misleading.

 

What are virus to you? Are they chemicals or are they spiritual beings? You must realize that it's strange that a virus can infect the DNA of a sperm and result in mutations that results in a person being born with different genotypes than their parents. Are these events led by a magical hand, or are they accidental?

 

Start to think about how you function right now. How the DNA works and how you exists at this moment. Is this moment somehow magical and supernatural? Why, why not? Cells are dividing through a chemical process, completely. Your brain is a chemical/physical entity, and it makes you to be you. There's nothing in there to point at something beyond what nature is.

 

Viruses, bacteria, cells, all of them natural. They mutate, and not only to negative effects. It's quite clear that mutations do not only result in negative results (from a natural standpoint, not from some human egocentric standpoint.)

 

Who says it came from nothing? Religious people do. Some scientists do. But many scientists believe the universe came from something else, but not a magical being who thinks, plans, and acts with supernatural hands and speak words in a 12-dimension environment.

 

Besides, does anything in this world come from nothing? Your body consists of chemicals of all kinds, and nothing else. Not one single part in you came from nothing. All life that we see in this world came from other things. All things transform and change, but nothing is coming from nothing. Something always comes from something else, transformed.

 

Essentially, if God is possible, then anything is possible, even a natural explanation.

[Phanta]

It may be too late for me to break free. I've indoctrinated myself to such an extent that even if I did break free of religion, I think I would still be depressed all the time. Fear is holding me back from taking the final step of faith into the unknown. In the back of my mind, no matter what I learn about it, I still believe Christianity to be true for some reason. I still believe it. I don't know why, but I do.

 

Hey CI.

 

I read this article today in Skeptical Inquiry and thought of you. It's called Why Bad Beliefs Don’t Die.

 

It's written by a psychologist to explain to skeptics why people's beliefs don't automatically change in the face of data. It has to do with our brain's sense of survival, which isn't purely data-based. He calls for gentleness and compassion when dealing with challenging beliefs. It may help you better understand what you're going through right now. I'm thinking specifically your repetition of fear keeping you in. Fear is linked with deep perceptions about survival, not truth as described in data.

 

Phanta