I'm Completely Lost...

[Legion]

I've been thinking. In my heart, I know that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. Has to be. As for what that "something" is, I'm not sure yet. This life can't be an accident. I'll leave it at that.

Nothing is an accident in my opinion. I assume (yes, I assume) that everything is subject to explanation and prediction in principle. Everything is entailed and entails. I play poker on occassion, and I ultilize probabilities in playing the game. But I think probabilities are more a measure of our own ignorance than they are an accurate reflection of reality.

 

And there is something bigger than ourselves. I call it my environment. It is large, complex and takes turns being awesome and terrifying.

[Guest confused idiot]

I've been thinking. In my heart, I know that there is something out there bigger than ourselves. Has to be. As for what that "something" is, I'm not sure yet. This life can't be an accident. I'll leave it at that.

 

I have a problem with the, "If god didn't do it it's an accident" concept. I hear it used frequently by creationist and atheist alike. "Accident" is a loaded word that implies something is the result of a mistake, so it already carries a negative connotation. Accidents can only come from a thinking/decision making entity. The only way life can be an accident is if there WAS a deity who did not intend for life to exist. If a storm washes a boulder down a hill, did it fall on accident? No, it is simply the result of interactions between natural forces/processes. It is neither the result of accidents nor is it design. Saying life is an accident in the absence of god creates a false dicotomy. Life is the result of interactions between natural processes. The only purpose is the one you make.

 

CI, your heart doesn't tell you what there is, it tells you what you want there to be. Creationist let their emotions lead them to an answer THEN they use their minds to rationalize that answer. That process gives you an answer that "feels right" not one that "is right".

 

If my heart is telling me that there is a God, I know it's not because I want there to be one. I'd rather not believe in God. Reason being, if the Bible is true, then God hates us all. He doesn't give a damn about anybody. He set up an impossible way of salvation with a road so narrow that very very few could even possibly make it. He puts us in situations that he knows we can't overcome. He gives us a worldview/mindset that constantly fucks up our mental health/sanity. I could go on and on. God doesn't give a damn. So no, I can't say that I *want* to believe.

 

Because it just doesn't make sense to me. No matter how much I look at it with an open mind, it doesn't even seem possible to me that this life could be just a chemical accident that spawned from nothing.

First of all, "accident" is a bit misleading.

 

What are virus to you? Are they chemicals or are they spiritual beings? You must realize that it's strange that a virus can infect the DNA of a sperm and result in mutations that results in a person being born with different genotypes than their parents. Are these events led by a magical hand, or are they accidental?

 

Start to think about how you function right now. How the DNA works and how you exists at this moment. Is this moment somehow magical and supernatural? Why, why not? Cells are dividing through a chemical process, completely. Your brain is a chemical/physical entity, and it makes you to be you. There's nothing in there to point at something beyond what nature is.

 

Viruses, bacteria, cells, all of them natural. They mutate, and not only to negative effects. It's quite clear that mutations do not only result in negative results (from a natural standpoint, not from some human egocentric standpoint.)

 

Who says it came from nothing? Religious people do. Some scientists do. But many scientists believe the universe came from something else, but not a magical being who thinks, plans, and acts with supernatural hands and speak words in a 12-dimension environment.

 

Besides, does anything in this world come from nothing? Your body consists of chemicals of all kinds, and nothing else. Not one single part in you came from nothing. All life that we see in this world came from other things. All things transform and change, but nothing is coming from nothing. Something always comes from something else, transformed.

 

Essentially, if God is possible, then anything is possible, even a natural explanation.

 

OK, here's what I don't get. You say that it didn't come from nothing. But there had to be some point where it started. There was a beginning at some point. Surely the universe didn't always exist. Time had to have begun at some point, created or not. So if that's the case, then there was absolutely nothing at some point. If I understand this right, that would have to mean that whatever started this evolutionary process had to have created itself, or spawned out of nowhere, or whatever. No matter how much I try to understand that, I don't.

[Guest confused idiot]

It may be too late for me to break free. I've indoctrinated myself to such an extent that even if I did break free of religion, I think I would still be depressed all the time. Fear is holding me back from taking the final step of faith into the unknown. In the back of my mind, no matter what I learn about it, I still believe Christianity to be true for some reason. I still believe it. I don't know why, but I do.

 

Hey CI.

 

I read this article today in Skeptical Inquiry and thought of you. It's called Why Bad Beliefs Don’t Die.

 

It's written by a psychologist to explain to skeptics why people's beliefs don't automatically change in the face of data. It has to do with our brain's sense of survival, which isn't purely data-based. He calls for gentleness and compassion when dealing with challenging beliefs. It may help you better understand what you're going through right now. I'm thinking specifically your repetition of fear keeping you in. Fear is linked with deep perceptions about survival, not truth as described in data.

 

Phanta

 

Interesting read.

[Ouroboros]

OK, here's what I don't get. You say that it didn't come from nothing. But there had to be some point where it started. There was a beginning at some point.

Why? And how?

 

If God created the universe, then when did God begin? If everything that exists must have a beginning, then God must have a beginning.

 

But if God doesn't have to have a beginning, then you're contradicting your statement that "some point where it started."

 

Unless you're considering that God didn't exist either before the universe. But then... why was God needed to begin when he began at the same moment?

 

Surely the universe didn't always exist.

I didn't say that.

 

Something else exited, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing.

 

Time had to have begun at some point, created or not.

Then "time" didn't exist before time began. So when did God exist? Not before time, because time didn't exist before time began. Do you see the problem?

 

You have to come up with a new concept of time to explain it, virtual time, or imaginary time.

 

Time as we know it exists only in this universe.

 

But does God experience time? Does God have a yesterday and a tomorrow? No? So God is all time all-the-time, and never, and always...

 

In other words, God can be all those things that are contradictory without a problem, but nature is not allowed to? Why?

 

Why is it that God can be given all those impossible and paradoxical attributes, but nothing else can? Why is that? Why is God always given that special right to be all the things that can't be, but at the same time we can't allow nature to be more complex than we can imagine?

 

Time and space collapse to an unknown state in the black holes. Physics breaks down and stop existing in it. That's what science and math says. How can that be? Is the Black Holes different kinds of gods then?

 

So if that's the case, then there was absolutely nothing at some point.

Even No-God? Nothing means nothing, or do you exclude God as the special case outside of all the things you demand must be?

 

You're setting up a system of dependent variables in your mind. But at the same time you demand nature to follow that system, you exclude God from it.

 

What if Nature is much more complex than the system you are imagining? Right now, there are many unanswered questions in science, and it's not pretty when it comes to the core of it. Our universe cannot be explained by the old traditional Newtonian physics, not even Einstein's relativity covers all sides of it. Quantum Mechanics only answer some things, and string theory is only half right. Not even Big Bang makes complete sense.

 

If I understand this right, that would have to mean that whatever started this evolutionary process had to have created itself, or spawned out of nowhere, or whatever. No matter how much I try to understand that, I don't.

Exactly. If nothing existed first, then God must have come from nothing first before he/she/it decided to create the universe.

 

But if God could just pop into existence from nothing, then why couldn't the universe?

 

I believe in an infinite of infinites. Where are just one little number in the infinite sequence of real numbers. Where does real numbers begin? Which number is the first number? Does it begin at the convergence of 0? Or does it begin somewhere at -∞? The answer is: neither. Real numbers do not being, or end.

 

Why do we have to have a God to exist before real numbers can exist?

[Guest confused idiot]

OK, here's what I don't get. You say that it didn't come from nothing. But there had to be some point where it started. There was a beginning at some point.

Why? And how?

 

If God created the universe, then when did God begin? If everything that exists must have a beginning, then God must have a beginning.

 

But if God doesn't have to have a beginning, then you're contradicting your statement that "some point where it started."

 

Unless you're considering that God didn't exist either before the universe. But then... why was God needed to begin when he began at the same moment?

 

Surely the universe didn't always exist.

I didn't say that.

 

Something else exited, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing.

 

Time had to have begun at some point, created or not.

Then "time" didn't exist before time began. So when did God exist? Not before time, because time didn't exist before time began. Do you see the problem?

 

You have to come up with a new concept of time to explain it, virtual time, or imaginary time.

 

Time as we know it exists only in this universe.

 

But does God experience time? Does God have a yesterday and a tomorrow? No? So God is all time all-the-time, and never, and always...

 

In other words, God can be all those things that are contradictory without a problem, but nature is not allowed to? Why?

 

Why is it that God can be given all those impossible and paradoxical attributes, but nothing else can? Why is that? Why is God always given that special right to be all the things that can't be, but at the same time we can't allow nature to be more complex than we can imagine?

 

Time and space collapse to an unknown state in the black holes. Physics breaks down and stop existing in it. That's what science and math says. How can that be? Is the Black Holes different kinds of gods then?

 

So if that's the case, then there was absolutely nothing at some point.

Even No-God? Nothing means nothing, or do you exclude God as the special case outside of all the things you demand must be?

 

You're setting up a system of dependent variables in your mind. But at the same time you demand nature to follow that system, you exclude God from it.

 

What if Nature is much more complex than the system you are imagining? Right now, there are many unanswered questions in science, and it's not pretty when it comes to the core of it. Our universe cannot be explained by the old traditional Newtonian physics, not even Einstein's relativity covers all sides of it. Quantum Mechanics only answer some things, and string theory is only half right. Not even Big Bang makes complete sense.

 

If I understand this right, that would have to mean that whatever started this evolutionary process had to have created itself, or spawned out of nowhere, or whatever. No matter how much I try to understand that, I don't.

Exactly. If nothing existed first, then God must have come from nothing first before he/she/it decided to create the universe.

 

But if God could just pop into existence from nothing, then why couldn't the universe?

 

I believe in an infinite of infinites. Where are just one little number in the infinite sequence of real numbers. Where does real numbers begin? Which number is the first number? Does it begin at the convergence of 0? Or does it begin somewhere at -∞? The answer is: neither. Real numbers do not being, or end.

 

Why do we have to have a God to exist before real numbers can exist?

 

Hell, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know shit about science. What the hell am I even doing here? Still, even with that said, none of this even makes sense. If God is real, then he's outside of time. If he's outside of time, then that means he has no beginning or end.

 

You said "Something else existed, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing." Like what? What is that "something else" that existed?

[Ouroboros]

Hell, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know shit about science. What the hell am I even doing here? Still, even with that said, none of this even makes sense. If God is real, then he's outside of time. If he's outside of time, then that means he has no beginning or end.

Like the multiverse.

 

You see. I solved it. The multiverse is outside of time, and it has no beginning and no end. It also contains infinite energy.

 

To me, it doesn't make sense to say that something "exists outside of time." How? How can a thing or being exist without time? How can he think? How can he make decisions?

 

Or put it this way, when did God create the universe if he doesn't have any context of time in which he could make it? If our time began at a non-time position, then our time is in flux of non-time. Our universe began always in the past, and it will begin always in the future, because our beginning began as a non-temporal event. Impossible.

 

You said "Something else existed, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing." Like what? What is that "something else" that existed?

The multiverse maybe. Or something else.

 

Consider that if God exists, God must exist somehow as something, somewhere. That "somehow, something, somewhere" can exist without God.

 

Why does the "before-universe-mystical-thing" necessarily have a mind? Why does it require a thought process to create the universe? Why does it have to be a supernatural, spiritual being, who can make decisions? Why not just a thing?

 

Put it this way, why is it that God is always a "he"? Why not a she? Or an it? Why can't God be an androgynous being? Or an amoeba? Or just a infinite cluster of universes? Why does God have to be a human male for the universe to exist?

 

Well, then you probably respond with: "God isn't a male or human, he is something much more and different than humans, and he is most definitely not a male." Then my rebuttal is, exactly. God is something else. God is something more. God is something not conceivable. So therefore God is an it, not a human mind or human male or thinking being, but something completely different. So why is God always made to what you want him to be?

 

How do you know that this universe was "planned" in any sense or meaning of the word?

 

If this somebody (instead of something) had to think about how to create the universe, then those thoughts were sequential. One thought leads to another. This is a strong argument for God's time. God must be within a framework of time if he can think sequentially (first this, then that).

 

If God knows and thinks all things at once, from the infinite past, then God never changes and never changed in the past. It all was predestined even before God's eternal past.

 

So all the problems continues to exist, regardless if we try to hide them behind the "black box" we call God.

 

Actually, to believe that we can explain the mysteries of this world by inventing a new mystery called God, is just postponing the inevitable, we must accept that we can't explain reality. Reality and Nature itself is The Mystery.

 

Let's say you walk on the beach one day, and you find a black box pushed up on the shore by the waves.

 

"What's in the box?" you ask. Your friend who is with you says he does not know.

 

Then you say, "It's a magical gnome in there, with 10 gold coins, and if I shake it, the gnome will magically transform those gold coins to good luck for me." But your friend is doubtful. He claims that the box doesn't rattle when you shake it, and furthermore, a gnome and gold coins would be heave, but the box is light.

 

Your answer is: "Hey, it's a MAGICAL gnome! He has antigravity boots, and he's packed in supernatural glorb-feathers."

 

Your friend is still doubtful, and he says that it's more likely the box is empty. But you insist, the box must contain a gnome with magical cold coins, how else could he explain the existence of the black box on the shore...

[Guest confused idiot]

Hell, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know shit about science. What the hell am I even doing here? Still, even with that said, none of this even makes sense. If God is real, then he's outside of time. If he's outside of time, then that means he has no beginning or end.

Like the multiverse.

 

You see. I solved it. The multiverse is outside of time, and it has no beginning and no end. It also contains infinite energy.

 

To me, it doesn't make sense to say that something "exists outside of time." How? How can a thing or being exist without time? How can he think? How can he make decisions?

 

Or put it this way, when did God create the universe if he doesn't have any context of time in which he could make it? If our time began at a non-time position, then our time is in flux of non-time. Our universe began always in the past, and it will begin always in the future, because our beginning began as a non-temporal event. Impossible.

 

You said "Something else existed, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing." Like what? What is that "something else" that existed?

The multiverse maybe. Or something else.

 

Consider that if God exists, God must exist somehow as something, somewhere. That "somehow, something, somewhere" can exist without God.

 

Why does the "before-universe-mystical-thing" necessarily have a mind? Why does it require a thought process to create the universe? Why does it have to be a supernatural, spiritual being, who can make decisions? Why not just a thing?

 

Put it this way, why is it that God is always a "he"? Why not a she? Or an it? Why can't God be an androgynous being? Or an amoeba? Or just a infinite cluster of universes? Why does God have to be a human male for the universe to exist?

 

Well, then you probably respond with: "God isn't a male or human, he is something much more and different than humans, and he is most definitely not a male." Then my rebuttal is, exactly. God is something else. God is something more. God is something not conceivable. So therefore God is an it, not a human mind or human male or thinking being, but something completely different. So why is God always made to what you want him to be?

 

How do you know that this universe was "planned" in any sense or meaning of the word?

 

If this somebody (instead of something) had to think about how to create the universe, then those thoughts were sequential. One thought leads to another. This is a strong argument for God's time. God must be within a framework of time if he can think sequentially (first this, then that).

 

If God knows and thinks all things at once, from the infinite past, then God never changes and never changed in the past. It all was predestined even before God's eternal past.

 

So all the problems continues to exist, regardless if we try to hide them behind the "black box" we call God.

 

Actually, to believe that we can explain the mysteries of this world by inventing a new mystery called God, is just postponing the inevitable, we must accept that we can't explain reality. Reality and Nature itself is The Mystery.

 

Let's say you walk on the beach one day, and you find a black box pushed up on the shore by the waves.

 

"What's in the box?" you ask. Your friend who is with you says he does not know.

 

Then you say, "It's a magical gnome in there, with 10 gold coins, and if I shake it, the gnome will magically transform those gold coins to good luck for me." But your friend is doubtful. He claims that the box doesn't rattle when you shake it, and furthermore, a gnome and gold coins would be heave, but the box is light.

 

Your answer is: "Hey, it's a MAGICAL gnome! He has antigravity boots, and he's packed in supernatural glorb-feathers."

 

Your friend is still doubtful, and he says that it's more likely the box is empty. But you insist, the box must contain a gnome with magical cold coins, how else could he explain the existence of the black box on the shore...

 

Multiverse? I've never heard that before. Really, I don't even give a shit anymore. This stuff can drive a person crazy. Religion is a strange thing. Take one set of beliefs, one holy book, one religion, and give it to a bunch of people. All getting their info from the same place, they all come out of it with radically different beliefs. It will inspire one guy to kill anyone who doesn't believe the same, while it inspires another guy to be extremely compassionate to all. It will inspire one person to hate anyone who is different, even within their own belief system, while it inspires another guy to love everyone equally. It inspires so many different viewpoints, beliefs, denominations, which all conflict with each other. Take all these different believers, who differ to such an extent on all their beliefs, small and big, who are all supposed to be led by the same Holy Spirit, which was sent by the God who is not the author of confusion. Yeah, that really makes sense. Religion will cause some comfort, peace, a crutch in desperate times, while the same religion causes some anxiety, depression, confusion, anger, endless guilt without an escape, insecurity, worthlessness, sleepless nights, and so much mental instability. And one of Christianity's fruits is supposed to be having a sound mind? Yeah, right.

[StevoMuso]

Hell, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know shit about science. What the hell am I even doing here? Still, even with that said, none of this even makes sense. If God is real, then he's outside of time. If he's outside of time, then that means he has no beginning or end.

 

You said "Something else existed, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing." Like what? What is that "something else" that existed?

If God is outside of time, then He is outside of our realm too. He will not even know we exist, and most certainly will not be able to "talk" to us, "create us" or be proved/disproved to exist.

 

Heisenberg (the uncertainty guy) found random "bursts" of energy, at a sub-atomic level, that take place in "nothing", where "nothing" was before, and had no measurable "cause". This could be another theory for the origin of the first "something" (e.g. a sub-atomic very small particle) because energy and mass are closely related. If a random energy-burst took place in absolute nothing (as Heisenberg found), then a sub-atomic "thing" with a sub-atomic mass, could have formed to counteract (or at least facilitate) the energy.

 

This random event could have sparked another chain of reactions resulting in all the bits and pieces (at a sub-atomic level) that were necessary to cause the big bang.

 

So ... CI ... there IS another explanation, or possible explanation, for the origin of the first atom billions and billions (and billions to the power billion) of years ago OTHER than "it MUST have been God". But these are just theories and in actual fact we don't know how the universe (or multiverse) started, but ignorance is not proof of the Divine.

[Ouroboros]

Multiverse? I've never heard that before.

It's been around for some years. But it's one out of many ideas how to explain the existence of our universe.

 

Really, I don't even give a shit anymore.

But you do give a shit about it. Why else are you here asking? You want to find peace, but religion does not give it to you. You try to understand, but religion does not explain it to you. Unfortunately science can't give you all the answers either (at least not yet), so it's a matter of learning the skill to live in uncertainty.

 

This stuff can drive a person crazy. Religion is a strange thing. Take one set of beliefs, one holy book, one religion, and give it to a bunch of people. All getting their info from the same place, they all come out of it with radically different beliefs. It will inspire one guy to kill anyone who doesn't believe the same, while it inspires another guy to be extremely compassionate to all. It will inspire one person to hate anyone who is different, even within their own belief system, while it inspires another guy to love everyone equally.

That's right.

 

Because a religious book is written in a slanted language, and each one of us humans read through selective reading. It contains picturesque, concrete, and abstract language and it's up to the reader to interpret whatever he or she wants in it. The holy book is slanting reality by charged language, selection of facts, and emphasizing religious ideas over reality. It's a handbook in deceit.

 

Religious ideas are a form of shortcuts: ways to take us out of uncertainty into certainty and calm our minds. But it does so at the cost of truth. Imaginary solutions can still the inquiring mind, but it doesn't solve the question in a truthful way. If the question is: what makes thunder? And the answer is: Thor rides in his chariot and swings his hammer. It might satisfy the believers mind, but it doesn't answer it with truth.

 

It inspires so many different viewpoints, beliefs, denominations, which all conflict with each other. Take all these different believers, who differ to such an extent on all their beliefs, small and big, who are all supposed to be led by the same Holy Spirit, which was sent by the God who is not the author of confusion.

Agree. Because there are no "Holy Spirit." There is only us. Humans. Physical beings. We interpret the book according to our beliefs. We make the book fit us, not the other way around.

 

Yeah, that really makes sense. Religion will cause some comfort, peace, a crutch in desperate times, while the same religion causes some anxiety, depression, confusion, anger, endless guilt without an escape, insecurity, worthlessness, sleepless nights, and so much mental instability. And one of Christianity's fruits is supposed to be having a sound mind? Yeah, right.

True. Religion only soothes the minds of people who don't care to find the ultimate answer to things. If you try to fit all the ideas in a holy book, and make it work, you will fail. Religion is not completely unified or comprehensible. It's not supposed to be, and it can't be. Humans made it. Not God.

[Guest confused idiot]

Hmm...

[Guest confused idiot]

This shit is crazy. This world can be a fucked up place at times, and I think religion is part of the problem. It tries to answer questions that no one can know. How stupid was I, being a stupid, unlearned gullible kid, thinking I was "right" just because I was raised on that belief, and that everyone else was wrong no matter what they were taught. If they were born into the wrong religion, hell, even the wrong denomination, sucks for them. Too bad, I guess they'll go to hell even though they don't know any better. Maybe I can show them the "error" of their ways, or maybe God will show them eventually. If not, oh well. Not my problem. They may have a strong faith, they may believe with certainty that they're "right" for whatever reason, they may love God, love others, and do their best to honor him in all ways, but too bad, they're going to hell anyway, just because they got their doctrines regarding salvation wrong. They honestly thought with all their heart that they had a relationship with this God and were going to heaven when they died, but they were wrong. They're going to hell because they were taught something that they honestly believed was the truth, but it turns out it wasn't the truth. And somehow this is all their fault. What the hell?

 

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares? Maybe I'm a backslidden apostate fool who is going to hell. Maybe I'm a genuine seeker of truth who is on to something. Maybe we all go to heaven. Maybe there is no heaven, and we all just die. Maybe we all go to hell. Maybe there is no hell, and we just die. Maybe it's not heaven or hell, but something entirely different that we can't even comprehend. Who knows? Who cares? What's the point in belief? What's the point? You can never know. Never, not in this life.

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

[Phanta]

I'm an agnostic, too. Leaning toward atheist, but not all the way there. I also think there are some things we just can't know. It's definitely a place out of which one can operate as a decent human being and functional member of society.

 

Phanta

[StevoMuso]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares? Maybe I'm a backslidden apostate fool who is going to hell. Maybe I'm a genuine seeker of truth who is on to something. Maybe we all go to heaven. Maybe there is no heaven, and we all just die. Maybe we all go to hell. Maybe there is no hell, and we just die. Maybe it's not heaven or hell, but something entirely different that we can't even comprehend. Who knows? Who cares? What's the point in belief? What's the point? You can never know. Never, not in this life.

 

Or maybe God simply does not exist.

 

Seems to me that the only people who are confused, frustrated, pulling their hair out etc. are the ones who still think there is an invisible Being floating around the universe.

[Shyone]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares?

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

Here's another approach. Instead of figuring out which of them is true (if any), assume they are all true. Just look at each, compare it will all of the others, subtract anything contradictory, and see what's left.

 

It's an interesting exercise.

[Ouroboros]

Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs.

Agree.

 

And since we can't know some things, it bugs me when religious people claim they do know. They tell you that Jesus this, Mohammad that, or Moses thus... they portray their faith as fact, when in reality, looking deep into their minds we'll discover doubt. It's more honest to admit the doubt, accept it, and learn to live with it, instead of proclaiming things as truths and deceiving ourselves (and others).

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

It's probably a good place for you to be.

[Guest confused idiot]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares?

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

Here's another approach. Instead of figuring out which of them is true (if any), assume they are all true. Just look at each, compare it will all of the others, subtract anything contradictory, and see what's left.

 

It's an interesting exercise.

 

I don't know how. It's not something that I can figure out.

[Phanta]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares?

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

Here's another approach. Instead of figuring out which of them is true (if any), assume they are all true. Just look at each, compare it will all of the others, subtract anything contradictory, and see what's left.

 

It's an interesting exercise.

 

I don't know how. It's not something that I can figure out.

 

I look at it from the other direction: What basic concepts do most widely accepted religions have some general agreement on? Do unto others is a pretty strong theme. There, then, we may come close to some Truth.

 

Phanta

[Shyone]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth. Or Deism. Or Judaism. Or Islam. Or one of the many other random religions. Or maybe some kind of belief that no one has discovered yet. Or whatever the hell else you can think of. Really, take your pick. Anything. Any belief you can come up with, think up, discover, it very well could be THE absolute truth. Or it could be bullshit. Any of these beliefs... Is it true? Possibly. Is it a lie? Possibly. My point is... Some things we can't know. We can't "know" we're right in our beliefs. Who cares? Who fucking cares?

 

EDIT: The more I analyze my own thoughts, and especially after rereading this post of mine, I've realized something. As of right now, I think I'm an agnostic theist.

Here's another approach. Instead of figuring out which of them is true (if any), assume they are all true. Just look at each, compare it will all of the others, subtract anything contradictory, and see what's left.

 

It's an interesting exercise.

 

I don't know how. It's not something that I can figure out.

Phanta's answer is really pretty good. Take the best parts and leave the rest.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of beliefs. Mohammed cancels out Jesus and vice versa. Buddhists cancel out Abrahamic gods. So what's left? The wisdom written in the books that has nothing to do with Gods, demons, Heaven or hell.

[AgnosticBob AtheistPants]

Christianity very well could be the truth. And it very well could be a lie, a myth, a fairy tale. Who knows? No one can for sure. Or maybe Atheism is the truth.

 

Atheism is not a belief system. Atheism is a passive lack of belief in a deity or deities. Anyone who tries to say atheism is a religion, belief system, way of life, etc., etc., is wrong. There are systems of belief that include atheism as a characteristic, but in and of itself, it is not a belief system. It's taken me a while to finally come to that realization.

[NotBlinded]

Hell, you're talking to a guy who doesn't know shit about science. What the hell am I even doing here? Still, even with that said, none of this even makes sense. If God is real, then he's outside of time. If he's outside of time, then that means he has no beginning or end.

Like the multiverse.

 

You see. I solved it. The multiverse is outside of time, and it has no beginning and no end. It also contains infinite energy.

 

To me, it doesn't make sense to say that something "exists outside of time." How? How can a thing or being exist without time? How can he think? How can he make decisions?

 

Or put it this way, when did God create the universe if he doesn't have any context of time in which he could make it? If our time began at a non-time position, then our time is in flux of non-time. Our universe began always in the past, and it will begin always in the future, because our beginning began as a non-temporal event. Impossible.

 

You said "Something else existed, not God, not the Universe, and not nothing." Like what? What is that "something else" that existed?

The multiverse maybe. Or something else.

 

Consider that if God exists, God must exist somehow as something, somewhere. That "somehow, something, somewhere" can exist without God.

 

Why does the "before-universe-mystical-thing" necessarily have a mind? Why does it require a thought process to create the universe? Why does it have to be a supernatural, spiritual being, who can make decisions? Why not just a thing?

 

Put it this way, why is it that God is always a "he"? Why not a she? Or an it? Why can't God be an androgynous being? Or an amoeba? Or just a infinite cluster of universes? Why does God have to be a human male for the universe to exist?

 

Well, then you probably respond with: "God isn't a male or human, he is something much more and different than humans, and he is most definitely not a male." Then my rebuttal is, exactly. God is something else. God is something more. God is something not conceivable. So therefore God is an it, not a human mind or human male or thinking being, but something completely different. So why is God always made to what you want him to be?

 

How do you know that this universe was "planned" in any sense or meaning of the word?

 

If this somebody (instead of something) had to think about how to create the universe, then those thoughts were sequential. One thought leads to another. This is a strong argument for God's time. God must be within a framework of time if he can think sequentially (first this, then that).

 

If God knows and thinks all things at once, from the infinite past, then God never changes and never changed in the past. It all was predestined even before God's eternal past.

 

So all the problems continues to exist, regardless if we try to hide them behind the "black box" we call God.

 

Actually, to believe that we can explain the mysteries of this world by inventing a new mystery called God, is just postponing the inevitable, we must accept that we can't explain reality. Reality and Nature itself is The Mystery.

 

Let's say you walk on the beach one day, and you find a black box pushed up on the shore by the waves.

 

"What's in the box?" you ask. Your friend who is with you says he does not know.

 

Then you say, "It's a magical gnome in there, with 10 gold coins, and if I shake it, the gnome will magically transform those gold coins to good luck for me." But your friend is doubtful. He claims that the box doesn't rattle when you shake it, and furthermore, a gnome and gold coins would be heave, but the box is light.

 

Your answer is: "Hey, it's a MAGICAL gnome! He has antigravity boots, and he's packed in supernatural glorb-feathers."

 

Your friend is still doubtful, and he says that it's more likely the box is empty. But you insist, the box must contain a gnome with magical cold coins, how else could he explain the existence of the black box on the shore...

Hans, I have to give you some of these:

 

 

"God" requires the same amount of thought processes as a centipede that moves its legs in unison...none. It can't be linear.

[StevoMuso]

I was thinking more along the lines of beliefs. Mohammed cancels out Jesus and vice versa. Buddhists cancel out Abrahamic gods. So what's left? The wisdom written in the books that has nothing to do with Gods, demons, Heaven or hell.

Here is the crux of the matter - nice post Shyone.

[Guest confused idiot]

I don't know what to say. All I've been doing is coming on here, bitching, moaning, complaining, and venting, about what a complete mental hell Christianity is, and how I want free of it. Yet I can't get free. You all have given me all the advice and wisdom you can, yet here I stay. Shit.

[Phanta]

I don't know what to say. All I've been doing is coming on here, bitching, moaning, complaining, and venting, about what a complete mental hell Christianity is, and how I want free of it. Yet I can't get free. You all have given me all the advice and wisdom you can, yet here I stay. Shit.

 

Ingrained stuff takes effort over time to work out.

 

"You can't think your way into a new way of living. You live your way into a new way of thinking."

 

Pick an action and try it for a while. Give a behavior or a vein of inquiry 3 weeks with no expectation beyond that time. In 3 weeks, ask yourself if that thing you are doing or idea you are living is moving you toward or away from peace.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

I don't know what to say. All I've been doing is coming on here, bitching, moaning, complaining, and venting, about what a complete mental hell Christianity is, and how I want free of it. Yet I can't get free. You all have given me all the advice and wisdom you can, yet here I stay. Shit.

It's okay. It's an easier transition for some, but not so easy for others. We're all different. Keep searching for the answers, and you will find what works best for you.

[Guest confused idiot]

Enough is enough. I've had it. Fuck this way of thinking. Fuck this way of living. I can't do it anymore.