I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest confused idiot]

confused, it seems that religion and christianity is literally driving you crazy. think about that for a minute.

 

I've thought about that. How could something good, pure, perfect, and true be the literal cause of this? I don't know.

[Realist]

confused, it seems that religion and christianity is literally driving you crazy. think about that for a minute.

 

I've thought about that. How could something good, pure, perfect, and true be the literal cause of this? I don't know.

 

 

..... confused you say:

 

"How could something good, pure, perfect, and true be the literal cause of this?"

 

That is the whole crux of the matter. You have had indoctrination ALL your life parroting those statements about your ONE TRUE religion! We have ALL been there! It is up to YOU to step outside that tiny repressive square of indoctrination. You HAVE to look at the history of Christianity .... its VILE beginnings! How the hell doctrine found its way into its teachings and why. The evilness of the church in the first few centuries AD. You HAVE to research these things for yourself .... no one else can do it for you!

 

Eventually you will find if you truly seek that the words "good" "pure" "perfect" and "true" have very little or NOTHING to do with this religion!

[Guest confused idiot]

confused, it seems that religion and christianity is literally driving you crazy. think about that for a minute.

 

I've thought about that. How could something good, pure, perfect, and true be the literal cause of this? I don't know.

 

 

..... confused you say:

 

"How could something good, pure, perfect, and true be the literal cause of this?"

 

That is the whole crux of the matter. You have had indoctrination ALL your life parroting those statements about your ONE TRUE religion! We have ALL been there! It is up to YOU to step outside that tiny repressive square of indoctrination. You HAVE to look at the history of Christianity .... its VILE beginnings! How the hell doctrine found its way into its teachings and why. The evilness of the church in the first few centuries AD. You HAVE to research these things for yourself .... no one else can do it for you!

 

Eventually you will find if you truly seek that the words "good" "pure" "perfect" and "true" have very little or NOTHING to do with this religion!

 

I've been wanting to look at a neutral, non-biased study on the history/origins of Christianity. Where might I find a good read on the subject? Preferably something online. There's not a good library where I live, and I don't like buying books unless I have to.

[Antlerman]

I was going to reply to your posts, but it said I had too much quoted text when I tried. So I'll do it this way.

 

@Antlerman:

 

Yeah, that's the thing. The fact that there are so many ways to look at it make it even more confusing than it is by itself. As far as "it" being true from some aspects and not true from others, what exactly is "it"?

I was referring to the Christian religion.

 

I agree with the fact that a lot of things in life are like that. But as far as Christianity, the Bible.... It's either absolute truth or a complete lie. It has to be one or the other, and nothing in between.

Why does it have to be, with nothing in between? "Love your neighbor as yourself". Is that a complete lie?

 

All I am saying is you need to relax and try to realize that thinking there will be black and white answers is a carry-over mentality from what annoyed you about Christianity. It (Christianity) is neither all right or all wrong, anymore that them calling non-Christians evil; you're either saved or lost. Do you see this? Your saying it's either all right or all wrong with nothing in between is the same mentality. And that is the problem. The mentality. Whether you're a Christian or not.

 

I just find that being not, makes it easier to shed myself of that mentality. And that's the key.

[Guest confused idiot]

I was going to reply to your posts, but it said I had too much quoted text when I tried. So I'll do it this way.

 

@Antlerman:

 

Yeah, that's the thing. The fact that there are so many ways to look at it make it even more confusing than it is by itself. As far as "it" being true from some aspects and not true from others, what exactly is "it"?

I was referring to the Christian religion.

 

I agree with the fact that a lot of things in life are like that. But as far as Christianity, the Bible.... It's either absolute truth or a complete lie. It has to be one or the other, and nothing in between.

Why does it have to be, with nothing in between? "Love your neighbor as yourself". Is that a complete lie?

 

All I am saying is you need to relax and try to realize that thinking there will be black and white answers is a carry-over mentality from what annoyed you about Christianity. It (Christianity) is neither all right or all wrong, anymore that them calling non-Christians evil; you're either saved or lost. Do you see this? Your saying it's either all right or all wrong with nothing in between is the same mentality. And that is the problem. The mentality. Whether you're a Christian or not.

 

I just find that being not, makes it easier to shed myself of that mentality. And that's the key.

 

Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false.

[Guest confused idiot]

I'm taking a break for now. I'm gonna do some searching, and hopefully come to a conclusion by the beginning of next week. Not really a conclusion of what to believe, but a conclusion as to what the bloody hell I need to do. I really don't even give a damn about what's true and what's false anymore... I don't care... Religion has done absolutely nothing but fuck me up in the head and turn me into this worthless piece of shit. Even if it is true, all I want to do is go outside, yell out "FUCK IT" and completely reject it. I want to do that with all of my heart. I hate it. Yet, there's only one thing holding me back -- fear. Fear that I'll go to sleep and not wake up. Fear that I'll die in a car accident. Fear that I'll drop dead randomly. Fear that any of these things could happen at any time, and I'd wake up in hell. Fear that I'd be on the run from God. Fucked if I stay, fucked if I go. Anyway, I'm pissed, and I just needed to vent.

 

I'll be back.

[Crazy Donna]

I'm taking a break for now. I'm gonna do some searching, and hopefully come to a conclusion by the beginning of next week. Not really a conclusion of what to believe, but a conclusion as to what the bloody hell I need to do. I really don't even give a damn about what's true and what's false anymore... I don't care... Religion has done absolutely nothing but fuck me up in the head and turn me into this worthless piece of shit. Even if it is true, all I want to do is go outside, yell out "FUCK IT" and completely reject it. I want to do that with all of my heart. I hate it. Yet, there's only one thing holding me back -- fear. Fear that I'll go to sleep and not wake up. Fear that I'll die in a car accident. Fear that I'll drop dead randomly. Fear that any of these things could happen at any time, and I'd wake up in hell. Fear that I'd be on the run from God. Fucked if I stay, fucked if I go. Anyway, I'm pissed, and I just needed to vent.

 

I'll be back.

 

I think you pretty much nailed it, mate. Seriously, how many christians would there really be if there was no threat of hell? The whole thing is a mindfuck. Without hell, there would be no christians, because nobody would turn their mind and their life inside out to worship a god just because they loved him. The real motivation of ALL christians is avoidance of hell. Break the grip that this fear has on you, and you'll break free of christianity.

 

Look at hell from other religious perspectives. I'd try wikipedia. There are hells in Islam, in Buddhism (hell realms where you can be reincarnated) and christianity. The Greeks had the Underworld, which had bad places and good places as well, and was ruled by Hades. Learn about some other versions of hell, and you might start to get some perspective. I studied a bit of Buddhism, and that pretty much did it for me.

 

You could die suddenly, jesus or no jesus. Life is precious. Treasure life and enjoy your time here. Don't worry too much.

[Phanta]

Hang in there, Confused!

 

Go gently. Breathe.

 

Phanta

[NotBlinded]

Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false.

CI,

 

If you could possibly allow yourself to look at Christianity as mythology, then you may be able to see what is being meant by them being not all true and not all false. They are stories that relate to the condition of mankind and indeed, there are truths.

 

If you want it to mean that it is true, literally, then honestly ask yourself how on earth anyone would actually know about the existence of a heaven or hell. God can't be telling all these religions different things. It's false in the sense that such places are known to exist or that God spoke, literally, to anyone. They are stories that people wrote to express their understanding of what God would be/should be like. It has psychological and cultural truths which don't have anything to do with the story being literally true. Myths help express an inner truth to other people.

 

I like Joseph Campbell in pointing to these truths. Here is the first part of an interview with him. If you would like to read it, here is the link: Mythic Reflections

 

Tom: What does myth do for us? Why is it so important?

 

Joseph: It puts you in touch with a plane of reference that goes past your mind and into your very being, into your very gut. The ultimate mystery of being and nonbeing transcends all categories of knowledge and thought. Yet that which transcends all talk is the very essence of your own being, so you're resting on it and you know it. The function of mythological symbols is to give you a sense of "Aha! Yes. I know what it is, it's myself." This is what it's all about, and then you feel a kind of centering, centering, centering all the time. And whatever you do can be discussed in relationship to this ground of truth. Though to talk about it as truth is a little bit deceptive because when we think of truth we think of something that can be conceptualized. It goes past that.

 

Tom: Heinrich Zimmer said "The best truths cannot be spoken. . . "

 

Joseph: "And the second best are misunderstood."

 

Tom: Then you added something to that.

 

Joseph: The third best is the usual conversation - science, history, sociology.

 

Tom: Why do people confuse these?

 

Joseph: Because the imagery that has to be used in order to tell what can't be told, symbolic imagery, is then understood or interpreted not symbolically but factually, empirically. It's a natural thing, but that's the whole problem with Western religion. All of the symbols are interpreted as if they were historical references. They're not. And if they are, then so what?

 

Tom: Let's go carefully here. What are you calling a symbol?

 

Joseph: I'm calling a symbol a sign that points past itself to a ground of meaning and being that is one with the consciousness of the beholder. What you're learning in myth is about yourself as part of the being of the world. If it talks not about you, finally, but about something out there, then it's short. There's that wonderful phase I got from Karlfried Graf Durkheim, "transparency to the transcendent." If a deity blocks off transcendency, cuts you short of it by stopping at himself, he turns you into a worshipper and a devotee, and he hasn't opened the mystery of your own being.

 

 

Hang in there...

[Shyone]

Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false.

I think I know what you are saying. There is some good stuff in the bible, and a lot of really bad stuff, and some historical stuff (biased, but mostly historical). But was it all inspired by God? Was there a divine being that "wrote" it or guided the authors.

 

With the cruelty, contradictions and errors, and occasionally really bad advice, it comes down to some literature that is very human, written by humans trying to convey what they believed (and convince others that what they believe is true). It's just a book.

 

You're also right that much wisdom comes from the Egyptians, Babylonians and beyond including the Golden Rule. It is still "inspiring" even if it isn't "magically inspired."

[wonder]

confused, there is no hell. there is no such thing as hell or heaven. its all a fairytale. get that thru your head. nothing is gonna happen after you die. nothing. this life is all there is, nothing more. so live now to the fullest or you are gonna spend this one life worrying all the time, terrified, and going crazy about religion.

[Crazy Donna]

"Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false."

 

I think that the Buddha came up with this one and got it printed, in different words. I can't remember the quote, but I remember reading it. Since the Buddha's supposed existence predates the supposed existence of jesus by several hundred years, I think it's a safe bet to say that this concept was well known, at least in the Eastern world, well before someone invented jesus.

 

Just because there is some good in something doesn't mean it's all good. Take 'Ant-Rid', for example. It's got lots of nice sugar in it. It also contains a large amount of Borax. Not something you'd want to eat, although to begin with, it might seem nice and have a pleasant taste. That's what buggers up the ants.

 

If christianity and the entire bible was true, that truth would manifest itself in reality 100% of the time. If you prayed for something with faith and the right motives, it would happen 100% of the time. The bible would be 100% accurate as a documentation of history and the formation of the world. Your experience of the world, and the bible and christianity, would conform to each other exactly. Prayer would always be answered, everyone on earth would be a christian, there would be no disease (because it would be prayed away) or hunger, or suffering. Have you ever been to church and noticed the cliques? The 'cool' people, and the 'uncool' people? If there was actually a god, and he was actually involved in the church, people would get things on merit, not because they were cool or had higher status. People would all be equal. There would be no difference of belief between christian denominations. The bible would contain no contradictions.

 

If the bible was 100% truth, then reality would match it's description of the formation of the earth, and the natural world. The fact that it doesn't, and in fact gets it so glaringly wrong, indicates that the bible is not truth. It is just a book, written by ignorant people, in the past, who had no scientific understanding of the real world. So many christians rationalise this away, or don't think about it. If the bible was the message of god to his people, it would match reality 100%, and it doesn't. Sure, it has some nice, happy, cheery stuff in it, but it isn't right. If you were getting medicine from a doctor, would you take something that only had a bit of good stuff in it, but the rest was absolute poison? You wouldn't.

 

The bible is contaminated with misogyny, ethnic cleansing, and other filth. It's advice, like 'turn the other cheek', and 'love thy enemy' don't work in real life, they just lead to more problems, all while making you feel guilty because you are naturally unable to obey these kinds of instructions without feeling resentful. Christianity teaches you to be a doormat, to believe and not think critically, to live in fear and guilt, to put your faith in something that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a shit about you, and then tells you to be happy about it. Think about the doctrine of hell. If god existed, and was so good, he wouldn't NEED to threaten us with hell. If his presence here was so evident, we would all be god loving christians, and would happily endure what he asked. There would be no need for hell. We wouldn't want to disobey god. The fact that a hell is necessary as a consequence for not being a christian indicates that god doesn't exist. If he did exist, hell wouldn't be necessary, because if his press is all true, nobody would lose their faith because god would be irresistible. But the bible, being full of hate and lies, relies on the doctrine of hell to frighten people into remaining christians. Without hell, the whole enterprise just falls apart. Remove hell from the picture, and you'll start to see christianity for what it really is -- a total mindfuck.

[Guest confused idiot]

"Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false."

 

I think that the Buddha came up with this one and got it printed, in different words. I can't remember the quote, but I remember reading it. Since the Buddha's supposed existence predates the supposed existence of jesus by several hundred years, I think it's a safe bet to say that this concept was well known, at least in the Eastern world, well before someone invented jesus.

 

Just because there is some good in something doesn't mean it's all good. Take 'Ant-Rid', for example. It's got lots of nice sugar in it. It also contains a large amount of Borax. Not something you'd want to eat, although to begin with, it might seem nice and have a pleasant taste. That's what buggers up the ants.

 

If christianity and the entire bible was true, that truth would manifest itself in reality 100% of the time. If you prayed for something with faith and the right motives, it would happen 100% of the time. The bible would be 100% accurate as a documentation of history and the formation of the world. Your experience of the world, and the bible and christianity, would conform to each other exactly. Prayer would always be answered, everyone on earth would be a christian, there would be no disease (because it would be prayed away) or hunger, or suffering. Have you ever been to church and noticed the cliques? The 'cool' people, and the 'uncool' people? If there was actually a god, and he was actually involved in the church, people would get things on merit, not because they were cool or had higher status. People would all be equal. There would be no difference of belief between christian denominations. The bible would contain no contradictions.

 

If the bible was 100% truth, then reality would match it's description of the formation of the earth, and the natural world. The fact that it doesn't, and in fact gets it so glaringly wrong, indicates that the bible is not truth. It is just a book, written by ignorant people, in the past, who had no scientific understanding of the real world. So many christians rationalise this away, or don't think about it. If the bible was the message of god to his people, it would match reality 100%, and it doesn't. Sure, it has some nice, happy, cheery stuff in it, but it isn't right. If you were getting medicine from a doctor, would you take something that only had a bit of good stuff in it, but the rest was absolute poison? You wouldn't.

 

The bible is contaminated with misogyny, ethnic cleansing, and other filth. It's advice, like 'turn the other cheek', and 'love thy enemy' don't work in real life, they just lead to more problems, all while making you feel guilty because you are naturally unable to obey these kinds of instructions without feeling resentful. Christianity teaches you to be a doormat, to believe and not think critically, to live in fear and guilt, to put your faith in something that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a shit about you, and then tells you to be happy about it. Think about the doctrine of hell. If god existed, and was so good, he wouldn't NEED to threaten us with hell. If his presence here was so evident, we would all be god loving christians, and would happily endure what he asked. There would be no need for hell. We wouldn't want to disobey god. The fact that a hell is necessary as a consequence for not being a christian indicates that god doesn't exist. If he did exist, hell wouldn't be necessary, because if his press is all true, nobody would lose their faith because god would be irresistible. But the bible, being full of hate and lies, relies on the doctrine of hell to frighten people into remaining christians. Without hell, the whole enterprise just falls apart. Remove hell from the picture, and you'll start to see christianity for what it really is -- a total mindfuck.

 

I get what you're saying, but I want to say one thing. I don't necessarily agree with your description of what the world would be like if the Bible was true. To me, that description sounds more like a world without sin. The Bible is clear that we live in a fallen world. But I won't get much into that right now.

 

About the whole "turn the other cheek" thing.... That's one thing I can't wrap my mind around. It just doesn't work. It contradicts the Old Testament too. Let's say some random stranger walks up to you and punches you in the face for no reason. What are you supposed to do in that situation? Say "bless you" and hope he backs off? What a wimpy way to be. One other thing having to do with those kinds of scriptures. The whole "give unto those who ask" thing also seems like being a huge pushover. If I read that right, that would mean that if someone came up to a man and "asked" if he could rape his wife... Apparently the Christ-like thing to do would be to hand over the wife and let that guy do whatever he wants with her. Most people associate that verse/principle with posessions, but it's the same principle.

[Kathlene]

"Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false."

 

I think that the Buddha came up with this one and got it printed, in different words. I can't remember the quote, but I remember reading it. Since the Buddha's supposed existence predates the supposed existence of jesus by several hundred years, I think it's a safe bet to say that this concept was well known, at least in the Eastern world, well before someone invented jesus.

 

Just because there is some good in something doesn't mean it's all good. Take 'Ant-Rid', for example. It's got lots of nice sugar in it. It also contains a large amount of Borax. Not something you'd want to eat, although to begin with, it might seem nice and have a pleasant taste. That's what buggers up the ants.

 

If christianity and the entire bible was true, that truth would manifest itself in reality 100% of the time. If you prayed for something with faith and the right motives, it would happen 100% of the time. The bible would be 100% accurate as a documentation of history and the formation of the world. Your experience of the world, and the bible and christianity, would conform to each other exactly. Prayer would always be answered, everyone on earth would be a christian, there would be no disease (because it would be prayed away) or hunger, or suffering. Have you ever been to church and noticed the cliques? The 'cool' people, and the 'uncool' people? If there was actually a god, and he was actually involved in the church, people would get things on merit, not because they were cool or had higher status. People would all be equal. There would be no difference of belief between christian denominations. The bible would contain no contradictions.

 

If the bible was 100% truth, then reality would match it's description of the formation of the earth, and the natural world. The fact that it doesn't, and in fact gets it so glaringly wrong, indicates that the bible is not truth. It is just a book, written by ignorant people, in the past, who had no scientific understanding of the real world. So many christians rationalise this away, or don't think about it. If the bible was the message of god to his people, it would match reality 100%, and it doesn't. Sure, it has some nice, happy, cheery stuff in it, but it isn't right. If you were getting medicine from a doctor, would you take something that only had a bit of good stuff in it, but the rest was absolute poison? You wouldn't.

 

The bible is contaminated with misogyny, ethnic cleansing, and other filth. It's advice, like 'turn the other cheek', and 'love thy enemy' don't work in real life, they just lead to more problems, all while making you feel guilty because you are naturally unable to obey these kinds of instructions without feeling resentful. Christianity teaches you to be a doormat, to believe and not think critically, to live in fear and guilt, to put your faith in something that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a shit about you, and then tells you to be happy about it. Think about the doctrine of hell. If god existed, and was so good, he wouldn't NEED to threaten us with hell. If his presence here was so evident, we would all be god loving christians, and would happily endure what he asked. There would be no need for hell. We wouldn't want to disobey god. The fact that a hell is necessary as a consequence for not being a christian indicates that god doesn't exist. If he did exist, hell wouldn't be necessary, because if his press is all true, nobody would lose their faith because god would be irresistible. But the bible, being full of hate and lies, relies on the doctrine of hell to frighten people into remaining christians. Without hell, the whole enterprise just falls apart. Remove hell from the picture, and you'll start to see christianity for what it really is -- a total mindfuck.

 

I get what you're saying, but I want to say one thing. I don't necessarily agree with your description of what the world would be like if the Bible was true. To me, that description sounds more like a world without sin. The Bible is clear that we live in a fallen world. But I won't get much into that right now.

 

About the whole "turn the other cheek" thing.... That's one thing I can't wrap my mind around. It just doesn't work. It contradicts the Old Testament too. Let's say some random stranger walks up to you and punches you in the face for no reason. What are you supposed to do in that situation? Say "bless you" and hope he backs off? What a wimpy way to be. One other thing having to do with those kinds of scriptures. The whole "give unto those who ask" thing also seems like being a huge pushover. If I read that right, that would mean that if someone came up to a man and "asked" if he could rape his wife... Apparently the Christ-like thing to do would be to hand over the wife and let that guy do whatever he wants with her. Most people associate that verse/principle with posessions, but it's the same principle.

 

 

Ive stayed far away from this thread confused, because I didnt want to be accused of trying to sway your opinion. You are obviously at a very fragile point in your life and you need to work things through without us christians adding more confusion to your brain!

 

I will however add one thing that I thought of when reading this post. I often wondered how we are supposed to live the way Jesus asks us to live. Its such a high standard, it almost seems unattainable. If you sit there and think to yourself what would God look like or how would he behave if he was in our presence and real like us I truly believe Jesus is Him. Apart from all the gross violence and blood from the movie Passion of the Christ, I only ever think of that one moment, when he looks at the Jewish leaders who begged for him to be killed and he says God forgive them, they know not what they are doing. If that is the ultimate evidence of love, I dont know what is. I sure as heck know i would be angry as all hell at those men. Jesus had the power to get himself off the cross, IF he chose to, but he didnt. He knew it was for God's will that he had to go through with it.

 

Anyway, I hope on my journey through life I would try and have the courage and faith and pure heart that Jesus has to walk through my trials and failures, ups and downs.

[Antlerman]

"Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false."

 

I think that the Buddha came up with this one and got it printed, in different words. I can't remember the quote, but I remember reading it. Since the Buddha's supposed existence predates the supposed existence of jesus by several hundred years, I think it's a safe bet to say that this concept was well known, at least in the Eastern world, well before someone invented jesus.

It actually exists in many cultures, and it first appears to us from Plato, 400 B.C.E. The point I was making to CI was that 'true', when it comes to things like this, things like this contained in the Bible, words of wisdom from various philosophers and sages, other religious texts, etc, these are not questions of scientific truths being either fact or non-fact. These are truths, that are philosophical. And those kinds of truths are validated by subjective lived experience.

 

And so my point is to say "It's either true or false", becomes instantly contradicted when you encounter any truth in it at all. You set the stage to confuse the hell out of yourself! You give it a false standard, that when you see anything true will contradict what you see in it as untrue. I'm saying its far better to understand it as containing both truth and error. I'm going to make that clear in a minute...

 

If christianity and the entire bible was true, that truth would manifest itself in reality 100% of the time. If you prayed for something with faith and the right motives, it would happen 100% of the time. The bible would be 100% accurate as a documentation of history and the formation of the world. Your experience of the world, and the bible and christianity, would conform to each other exactly. Prayer would always be answered, everyone on earth would be a christian, there would be no disease (because it would be prayed away) or hunger, or suffering. Have you ever been to church and noticed the cliques? The 'cool' people, and the 'uncool' people? If there was actually a god, and he was actually involved in the church, people would get things on merit, not because they were cool or had higher status. People would all be equal. There would be no difference of belief between christian denominations. The bible would contain no contradictions.

This entire criteria is from a scientific one. People don't live as scientists. They live as humans, and are very complex, non-binary beings. Again, the criteria is being set by which to evaluate it, but is anyone questioning the criteria? I think the fundamentalist who tries to make it be something that science can accept, is as much ignorant about their own texts, as those who call it "false" because it doesn't meet scientific criteria.

 

Again, it is obvious it has truth in it, as well as what is not true to us today. The best way to look at this is to say, "It was their understanding". Some of those understanding may also be true for us today, such as 'love your neighbor'. But I know what your objection is, and why the set of criteria. It's about it being seen as an Authoritative Source over all human understanding. Now that I would say is blatantly false, as human understanding is in constant motion and growth. But the argument then is not about the Bible, but about that understanding of it. Wouldn't it be?

 

If the bible was the message of god to his people, it would match reality 100%, and it doesn't. Sure, it has some nice, happy, cheery stuff in it, but it isn't right. If you were getting medicine from a doctor, would you take something that only had a bit of good stuff in it, but the rest was absolute poison? You wouldn't.

The problems with analogies is that they quite often only reflect one point of view and don't go far enough to give a balanced perspective. Another analogy could be this: Would you drink the poopy, dirty, scummy bathwater that accompanies a baby in a tub? No, yuk. Of course not, you would throw it out. But would you be acting rationally to discard the baby because it was also in the scum water?

 

All I am saying is we definitely need to empty the tub of that dirty bathwater, but to not fall into a reactionary trap, hating the bathwater so much that we fail to recognize the value of those human truth that exist in it, and everywhere in all our perspectives as humans, through the ages, in all our stages of growth, in all our works. They are a part of who we have become, both for the good and the bad.

 

I look at it changing the criteria away from a true/false binary equation, to an existential one of human existence and our evolution. That allows for true freedom, not some binary-level non-reality.

 

What is the true poison, is literalism. And that is true no matter the context, religious or otherwise.

[Legion]

The problems with analogies...

I have to defend analogies here Antlerman, and meet my quota of A-man criticism.

 

Most analogies are partial. It's true. But they remain very powerful aids for gaining understanding.

[Antlerman]

The problems with analogies...

I have to defend analogies here Antlerman, and meet my quota of A-man criticism.

 

Most analogies are partial. It's true. But they remain very powerful aids for gaining understanding.

I agree, but they can also be misleading when they exclude critical factors. It's always a good idea to examine the analogy itself.

 

I should say that the analogy of medicine mixed with poison can work, but applied to a neutral object it fails to address the actual issue. The actual poison is ignorance. So I would say that a fool who goes into a pharmacy simply believing that it is all magic powder that if people take anything from it they will be made healthy; not having the breadth of knowledge or wisdom to understand that if you look at the pharmacy in these highly literalistic terms, that it good for you, they misapply it to their own and others detriment or potential death. A pharmacist on the other hand understands that some of that powder is in fact lethal on its own, unless distilled or diluted into a proper context. The literalist is him who sees the pharmacy is either all good or all bad.

 

And this applies not to the Bible specifically, but anything in the realm of ideas, philosophies, religions, etc. The literalist wants it to be simple, and it's not. It's nuanced, and subtle, powerful, and dangerous, and anything but black and white, true or false. Just look at how philosopher's ideas are reduced to the ideologies of politicians, for instance. Who is to blame? The philosopher, or the those who flattens the teachings into something not-it? Is Carl Marx all wrong, because of those who created Communism wanted to read him? What about Social Darwinsim? They look at biology and misapply Darwin's teaching that survival of the fittest justifies selfish greed (Enron). Is Darwin 'all wrong'? Or are they making a gross error of understanding the difference between biology and psychology??? I would think you would appreciate that reference.

 

That's the whole thing I say about the Bible in this discussion. It's not either true or false, it's what it is and there are many ways to understanding it. What is the real question again, is an understanding of it being valid or not. It's about those understandings, not whether the thing itself is true or false. There is hardly unanimity in understanding what it says, so it can hardly be said to speak for itself. People speak for it. And its how people speak for it that the focus should lay, not externalizing that discussion to an object. Is a stick evil or good? Or is the question about the reasoning and motives of those who use one, either as a tool or a weapon?

 

 

There's some more analogies for you. So even though you think you criticize, you didn't have a valid criticism. I love analogies too. (Keep working on it, one day you'll find an actual valid criticism. So far, I just see you trying really hard for some reason).

[Guest confused idiot]

"Yeah, but something tells me "love your neighbor as yourself" didn't originate from Christianity. There's good in it, no doubt, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's either true or false."

 

I think that the Buddha came up with this one and got it printed, in different words. I can't remember the quote, but I remember reading it. Since the Buddha's supposed existence predates the supposed existence of jesus by several hundred years, I think it's a safe bet to say that this concept was well known, at least in the Eastern world, well before someone invented jesus.

 

Just because there is some good in something doesn't mean it's all good. Take 'Ant-Rid', for example. It's got lots of nice sugar in it. It also contains a large amount of Borax. Not something you'd want to eat, although to begin with, it might seem nice and have a pleasant taste. That's what buggers up the ants.

 

If christianity and the entire bible was true, that truth would manifest itself in reality 100% of the time. If you prayed for something with faith and the right motives, it would happen 100% of the time. The bible would be 100% accurate as a documentation of history and the formation of the world. Your experience of the world, and the bible and christianity, would conform to each other exactly. Prayer would always be answered, everyone on earth would be a christian, there would be no disease (because it would be prayed away) or hunger, or suffering. Have you ever been to church and noticed the cliques? The 'cool' people, and the 'uncool' people? If there was actually a god, and he was actually involved in the church, people would get things on merit, not because they were cool or had higher status. People would all be equal. There would be no difference of belief between christian denominations. The bible would contain no contradictions.

 

If the bible was 100% truth, then reality would match it's description of the formation of the earth, and the natural world. The fact that it doesn't, and in fact gets it so glaringly wrong, indicates that the bible is not truth. It is just a book, written by ignorant people, in the past, who had no scientific understanding of the real world. So many christians rationalise this away, or don't think about it. If the bible was the message of god to his people, it would match reality 100%, and it doesn't. Sure, it has some nice, happy, cheery stuff in it, but it isn't right. If you were getting medicine from a doctor, would you take something that only had a bit of good stuff in it, but the rest was absolute poison? You wouldn't.

 

The bible is contaminated with misogyny, ethnic cleansing, and other filth. It's advice, like 'turn the other cheek', and 'love thy enemy' don't work in real life, they just lead to more problems, all while making you feel guilty because you are naturally unable to obey these kinds of instructions without feeling resentful. Christianity teaches you to be a doormat, to believe and not think critically, to live in fear and guilt, to put your faith in something that either doesn't exist or doesn't give a shit about you, and then tells you to be happy about it. Think about the doctrine of hell. If god existed, and was so good, he wouldn't NEED to threaten us with hell. If his presence here was so evident, we would all be god loving christians, and would happily endure what he asked. There would be no need for hell. We wouldn't want to disobey god. The fact that a hell is necessary as a consequence for not being a christian indicates that god doesn't exist. If he did exist, hell wouldn't be necessary, because if his press is all true, nobody would lose their faith because god would be irresistible. But the bible, being full of hate and lies, relies on the doctrine of hell to frighten people into remaining christians. Without hell, the whole enterprise just falls apart. Remove hell from the picture, and you'll start to see christianity for what it really is -- a total mindfuck.

 

I get what you're saying, but I want to say one thing. I don't necessarily agree with your description of what the world would be like if the Bible was true. To me, that description sounds more like a world without sin. The Bible is clear that we live in a fallen world. But I won't get much into that right now.

 

About the whole "turn the other cheek" thing.... That's one thing I can't wrap my mind around. It just doesn't work. It contradicts the Old Testament too. Let's say some random stranger walks up to you and punches you in the face for no reason. What are you supposed to do in that situation? Say "bless you" and hope he backs off? What a wimpy way to be. One other thing having to do with those kinds of scriptures. The whole "give unto those who ask" thing also seems like being a huge pushover. If I read that right, that would mean that if someone came up to a man and "asked" if he could rape his wife... Apparently the Christ-like thing to do would be to hand over the wife and let that guy do whatever he wants with her. Most people associate that verse/principle with posessions, but it's the same principle.

 

 

Ive stayed far away from this thread confused, because I didnt want to be accused of trying to sway your opinion. You are obviously at a very fragile point in your life and you need to work things through without us christians adding more confusion to your brain!

 

I will however add one thing that I thought of when reading this post. I often wondered how we are supposed to live the way Jesus asks us to live. Its such a high standard, it almost seems unattainable. If you sit there and think to yourself what would God look like or how would he behave if he was in our presence and real like us I truly believe Jesus is Him. Apart from all the gross violence and blood from the movie Passion of the Christ, I only ever think of that one moment, when he looks at the Jewish leaders who begged for him to be killed and he says God forgive them, they know not what they are doing. If that is the ultimate evidence of love, I dont know what is. I sure as heck know i would be angry as all hell at those men. Jesus had the power to get himself off the cross, IF he chose to, but he didnt. He knew it was for God's will that he had to go through with it.

 

Anyway, I hope on my journey through life I would try and have the courage and faith and pure heart that Jesus has to walk through my trials and failures, ups and downs.

 

I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't explain the problems that I stated with things like turning the other cheek, give unto those who ask, etc. I have no problem with being humble, but the problem with those things is all it does is make you a walking doormat. Jesus makes it seem like it's a sin to be bold, assertive, stand up for yourself. Like I said, if all Christians took literally what Jesus said and obeyed, that would mean that they couldn't stand up for themselves, their country, their family, or anything, period. That's not being humble, it's being a pushover. Like I said, it would mean that a man would cease to defend his wife in the case that someone wanted to beat and/or rape her. It would mean that if a thief mugged an elderly person, you wouldn't be allowed to do much about it, because you couldn't do that and be humble/gentle/turning the other cheek at the same time. I know one thing. If the example about a Christian man not defending his wife is the truth, there would be no way that I would ever marry as a Christian. If I did, I wouldn't obey that "rule". I don't care how "unbiblical" it is, I would NEVER let anyone lay a single hand on any wife of mine. I would beat the crap out of anyone trying to rape/harm her. That's one thing I would be willing to go to hell for.

[oddbird1963]

I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't explain the problems that I stated with things like turning the other cheek, give unto those who ask, etc. I have no problem with being humble, but the problem with those things is all it does is make you a walking doormat. Jesus makes it seem like it's a sin to be bold, assertive, stand up for yourself. Like I said, if all Christians took literally what Jesus said and obeyed, that would mean that they couldn't stand up for themselves, their country, their family, or anything, period. That's not being humble, it's being a pushover. Like I said, it would mean that a man would cease to defend his wife in the case that someone wanted to beat and/or rape her. It would mean that if a thief mugged an elderly person, you wouldn't be allowed to do much about it, because you couldn't do that and be humble/gentle/turning the other cheek at the same time. I know one thing. If the example about a Christian man not defending his wife is the truth, there would be no way that I would ever marry as a Christian. If I did, I wouldn't obey that "rule". I don't care how "unbiblical" it is, I would NEVER let anyone lay a single hand on any wife of mine. I would beat the crap out of anyone trying to rape/harm her. That's one thing I would be willing to go to hell for.

 

I think what you're running up against here is a reality that fundamentalists would fervently deny in the case of their scriptures but turn around and acquiesce to in the name of "common sense" or "discernment" or other some such rationalizations. Otherwise I would never have financial issues. I could just demand money from every bible toting fundamentalist believer around.

 

No one book contains all the truths you need to get along successfully and ethically in life. In anticipation of at least one possible reply to this statement, I would say no one book contains all the correct "foundational" truths you need upon which to build your life.

 

That is the tragedy of those belief systems which seek to take their scriptures literally or view their writings as THE authoritative "owner's manual" for life and happiness. Those writings, while containing good things to think upon also contain assertions that defy a greater wisdom that cannot be contained in any one book that the reader would find readable. I think that is why the most successful writings that have to do with morality, ethics and wisdom are contained in parables, myths and stories. Stories are not precise, but they communicate more truth than prescriptive prose is able to.

 

That "greater wisdom" is not some mystical body of knowledge that stands above all things and only the most gifted of prophets, oracles and preachers have access to. It is merely the insight creeping in from those bodies of knowledge that are excluded, ignored or defied by the religious system receiving focus.

 

Most religious people recognize some degree of that extra-systemic wisdom and insight. The fundamentalists do as well using the mantra of "you've got to have common sense" or "you must have discernment." But by clinging most vociferously to such principles as "sola scriptura" or "if it ain't in the Bible ,I don't believe it!" or "it has to be scriptural," they create the most cognitive dissonance and make themselves look clownish.

 

I think it is more healthy to adopt the attitude that there is much legitimate wisdom out there outside the bible and any hyper-literal interpretation of the bible. It is our pleasure to get to search for it and set about separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

I think if you set about that task without putting pressure on yourself to be right or find the "true faith," you'll see that you in are in a particularly beneficial position.

[wonder]

confused, youre deeply programmed. religion programs people.

[Ouroboros]

confused, youre deeply programmed. religion programs people.

With bugs and viruses.

 

It's like Windows Vista, but worse...

 

That's what I have to say about analogies.

[Guest confused idiot]

I get what you're saying, but that still doesn't explain the problems that I stated with things like turning the other cheek, give unto those who ask, etc. I have no problem with being humble, but the problem with those things is all it does is make you a walking doormat. Jesus makes it seem like it's a sin to be bold, assertive, stand up for yourself. Like I said, if all Christians took literally what Jesus said and obeyed, that would mean that they couldn't stand up for themselves, their country, their family, or anything, period. That's not being humble, it's being a pushover. Like I said, it would mean that a man would cease to defend his wife in the case that someone wanted to beat and/or rape her. It would mean that if a thief mugged an elderly person, you wouldn't be allowed to do much about it, because you couldn't do that and be humble/gentle/turning the other cheek at the same time. I know one thing. If the example about a Christian man not defending his wife is the truth, there would be no way that I would ever marry as a Christian. If I did, I wouldn't obey that "rule". I don't care how "unbiblical" it is, I would NEVER let anyone lay a single hand on any wife of mine. I would beat the crap out of anyone trying to rape/harm her. That's one thing I would be willing to go to hell for.

 

I think what you're running up against here is a reality that fundamentalists would fervently deny in the case of their scriptures but turn around and acquiesce to in the name of "common sense" or "discernment" or other some such rationalizations. Otherwise I would never have financial issues. I could just demand money from every bible toting fundamentalist believer around.

 

No one book contains all the truths you need to get along successfully and ethically in life. In anticipation of at least one possible reply to this statement, I would say no one book contains all the correct "foundational" truths you need upon which to build your life.

 

That is the tragedy of those belief systems which seek to take their scriptures literally or view their writings as THE authoritative "owner's manual" for life and happiness. Those writings, while containing good things to think upon also contain assertions that defy a greater wisdom that cannot be contained in any one book that the reader would find readable. I think that is why the most successful writings that have to do with morality, ethics and wisdom are contained in parables, myths and stories. Stories are not precise, but they communicate more truth than prescriptive prose is able to.

 

That "greater wisdom" is not some mystical body of knowledge that stands above all things and only the most gifted of prophets, oracles and preachers have access to. It is merely the insight creeping in from those bodies of knowledge that are excluded, ignored or defied by the religious system receiving focus.

 

Most religious people recognize some degree of that extra-systemic wisdom and insight. The fundamentalists do as well using the mantra of "you've got to have common sense" or "you must have discernment." But by clinging most vociferously to such principles as "sola scriptura" or "if it ain't in the Bible ,I don't believe it!" or "it has to be scriptural," they create the most cognitive dissonance and make themselves look clownish.

 

I think it is more healthy to adopt the attitude that there is much legitimate wisdom out there outside the bible and any hyper-literal interpretation of the bible. It is our pleasure to get to search for it and set about separating the wheat from the chaff.

 

I think if you set about that task without putting pressure on yourself to be right or find the "true faith," you'll see that you in are in a particularly beneficial position.

 

There's no getting around those biblical obstacles. I'm starting to see one thing here - truth or lie, I am nearly to the point where I can't be a Christian. It's strange, many people talk about a "God-shaped hole" or some other huge void in their life that was not filled until they "found God". For me, it's the opposite. Seeking Jesus only led to complete emptiness. The more I focus on seeking Jesus, the more depressed and empty I feel. Let's see Christians explain that. But at the same time, I find it impossible to believe that this life is just some chemical accident with no meaning or purpose. I'm not saying it can't be some other god, but still, I still don't see how life could possibly have came about by itself without some kind of being outside of time having something to do with it. I've been told that just because we don't know how it got started, it doesn't mean "Goddidit". I'm really trying to understand here. But someone please explain in layman's terms, how else life, time, the universe, could have possibly STARTED (BEFORE the big bang) without some kind of life form outside of time having something to do with it? I've searched for the answer to that question. All I can find or get from anyone is "we don't know yet". That's right, we don't know - but, like I said, how does life come into exsistance by itself? How does that work? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. Then again, what the hell does it even matter? Like I said, I myself, and many others here I'm sure, can't live this Christian life, even if it is true. If the Bible is true, we're all screwed. We don't even have a choice. I don't, anyway.

[oddbird1963]

There's no getting around those biblical obstacles. I'm starting to see one thing here - truth or lie, I am nearly to the point where I can't be a Christian. It's strange, many people talk about a "God-shaped hole" or some other huge void in their life that was not filled until they "found God". For me, it's the opposite. Seeking Jesus only led to complete emptiness. The more I focus on seeking Jesus, the more depressed and empty I feel. Let's see Christians explain that. But at the same time, I find it impossible to believe that this life is just some chemical accident with no meaning or purpose. I'm not saying it can't be some other god, but still, I still don't see how life could possibly have came about by itself without some kind of being outside of time having something to do with it. I've been told that just because we don't know how it got started, it doesn't mean "Goddidit". I'm really trying to understand here. But someone please explain in layman's terms, how else life, time, the universe, could have possibly STARTED (BEFORE the big bang) without some kind of life form outside of time having something to do with it? I've searched for the answer to that question. All I can find or get from anyone is "we don't know yet". That's right, we don't know - but, like I said, how does life come into exsistance by itself? How does that work? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. Then again, what the hell does it even matter? Like I said, I myself, and many others here I'm sure, can't live this Christian life, even if it is true. If the Bible is true, we're all screwed. We don't even have a choice. I don't, anyway.

I remember that "God shaped hole" analogy. It never carried much weight with me. It's just a part of the Christian mythology. It's succinct and it carries the promise of solving all your existential problems. Just get Jesus, get the holy spirit and all that angst will just evaporate. It's a good tactic. It will even work for some. A larger number won't experience the completeness of having that god shaped hole filled, but they won't say anything lest they seem like a second-class church member. Many will quietly melt away, not having experienced that "spiritual healing," get discouraged and try other pursuits. They are the quiet outliers that nobody in Christianity really considers. They get a lot of leverage out of the "god shaped hole" gambit.

 

I could be wrong, but it seems like maybe you had a hole to fill before you fell deeply into Christianity and maybe you still have a hole to fill. Questions about origins are maybe secondary to this issue.

 

So, at this point, I want to ask a question. It sounds silly and I am not being flippant. What purpose does being aware of a purpose serve?

 

More questions. Which is more important: fulfilling a purpose or being aware of your purpose? Some people are driven - like they are on a mission. But is that something we all need to have? Maybe we are fulfilling a purpose automatically as part of a biologically ingrained imperative. Do we HAVE to be aware of some purpose for life to be good?

 

Does this perceived purpose have to come from some force outside of ourselves? Why couldn't it be sufficient for you to determine your own meaning and purpose when you're ready to do so?

[StevoMuso]

Does this perceived purpose have to come from some force outside of ourselves? Why couldn't it be sufficient for you to determine your own meaning and purpose when you're ready to do so?

Brilliant. One of the biggest objections I get from Christian apologists is the whole "purpose" issue - as if we are not capable of finding one for ourselves, you know, there MUST be some kind of cosmic (I nearly typed "comic") Purpose.

 

How about this for a Purpose: furthering the development of the human race and making our lives here on earth easier, healthier, etc. For example: how about studying genetics and help to find a way to cure the aging process. Contributing to the knowledge-base of Humankind is a great and noble Purpose, or just helping someone else who is in need - none of our "purpose" has to come from a "supernatural" source.

[Shyone]

There's no getting around those biblical obstacles. I'm starting to see one thing here - truth or lie, I am nearly to the point where I can't be a Christian. It's strange, many people talk about a "God-shaped hole" or some other huge void in their life that was not filled until they "found God". For me, it's the opposite. Seeking Jesus only led to complete emptiness. The more I focus on seeking Jesus, the more depressed and empty I feel. Let's see Christians explain that. But at the same time, I find it impossible to believe that this life is just some chemical accident with no meaning or purpose. I'm not saying it can't be some other god, but still, I still don't see how life could possibly have came about by itself without some kind of being outside of time having something to do with it. I've been told that just because we don't know how it got started, it doesn't mean "Goddidit". I'm really trying to understand here. But someone please explain in layman's terms, how else life, time, the universe, could have possibly STARTED (BEFORE the big bang) without some kind of life form outside of time having something to do with it? I've searched for the answer to that question. All I can find or get from anyone is "we don't know yet". That's right, we don't know - but, like I said, how does life come into exsistance by itself? How does that work? I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. Then again, what the hell does it even matter? Like I said, I myself, and many others here I'm sure, can't live this Christian life, even if it is true. If the Bible is true, we're all screwed. We don't even have a choice. I don't, anyway.

The scientific questions are not just interesting, but absolutely fascinating. I consider them to be largely irrelevent to the issue of "gods" because wherever I look, I see nature doing what nature does. There isn't a god, for example, that leads to cell division. It is a natural process that, although complex, operates entirely on physical and chemical principles. How do I know? First, we know what chemicals are involved from the simplest elements to the most complex molecules, and we know the shapes of cells, organelles and all the little bits in the cells. Second, we know what it takes to screw things up. Add it little of some substance that is like the natural stuff (but is man-made) and you see the chemical treated like it was natural, and it's like throwing a wrench into the works. That's basically what medicine is, and I'm a doctor, so I deal with the ways that medicines interfere sith or improve the natural function of the body and its cells.

 

All of the "chemicals of life" are naturally occurring which means that if you take a bunch of chemicals in their simple forms and mix them together, you wind up with more complex chemicals found in nature. Atoms and molecules follow rules like Leggos. That's why they are called "building blocks of life."

 

The interesting thing is that all of the possible chemicals that form don't all fit together. It's like mixing multiple puzzles together, or having one puzzle and a bunch of leftover pieces from many other puzzles. The puzzle parts that fit find one another as though they had magnets attached (which they do - positive and negative charges). In time, since they can only fit together certain ways naturally, they naturally - fit together. The ones that don't fit together are left out of the puzzle.

 

I think that you are looking at a long journey and perhaps you can see the first step, but you are having problems understanding, "How can such a long journey be accomplished with something as simple and short as a single step?"

 

Did you see the Stephen Hawking special on aliens the other day? He briefly touched on abiogenesis - the chemical beginnings of life - and even considered how different chemicals or different temperatures might have led to totally different kinds of life - depending on the chemistry.

 

The dances of chemicals are like dances of clouds in the wind - beautiful, natural and part of the cycles of life. Complicated little snowflakes self-assemble based entirely on physical and chemical properties, and they are unique, different and beautiful, but transitory. So are we.