I'm Completely Lost...

[Guest end3]

What "good things" in christianity can't be done without it?

The Love of Jesus

This harkens back to this 33 page thread here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?/topic/34759-the-love-of-jesus/

 

Remember that? I think that whole 644 post thread stands as a response to this. Care to add a few more posts to it with me? I'll have more to add.

 

Um, I may have said that on purpose...lol. Bring it when you're ready.

 

Why don't you address my last post, first?

 

And while you're at it, how about addressing my last post on The Problem With Pain thread.................

 

--S.

You keep saying the same stuff over and over....

 

Christian, "It's called faith for a reason"

 

Scott, "You DO NOT have objective proof of your idosnycratic...blah, blah, who gives a shit blah blah".

 

Christian, "Give me the methodology that science uses for proof there is no God"

 

Scott, "MORE bullshit excuses for you not having anything tied to reality in you idosycratic blah blah...don't give a shit..blah blah".

 

Christian, "Give me something from your side of the fence Scott".

 

Scott, "YOUR the one with the OUTLANDISH claims, so the burden of PROOF by objective evidence.....that YOU HAVE NONE....idosyncratic....who gives a shit...blah blah blah blah".

 

Maybe that is all you have or can do right now...I don't know.

 

I double dog dare.....no, TRIPLE dog dare you to say something different.

 

(pardon the breech of dog dare ediquette....going straight to the triple dog dare)

[oddbird1963]

End3,

 

You are being disingenuous toward Scott. If you knew anything about science you would know that there is no scientific methodology for proving that something does not exist. If you don't know that, you need to do a little bit more learning.

 

Science can be used to determine that a conclusion, based on claims of scientific accuracy, is either warranted or unwarranted by the evidence.

 

Or, Science can prove that evidence points in the direction of an alternative explanation.

 

But, really, don't be disingenuous in asking for scientific proof that God does not exist.

 

What's your scientific proof that Freddy the unicorn doesn't exist?

 

And "It's called faith for a reason."

 

How sure are you that that statement is not a convenient exit from the burden to think clearly and follow reason to it's logical conclusion?

[Guest end3]

End3,

 

You are being disingenuous toward Scott. If you knew anything about science you would know that there is no scientific methodology for proving that something does not exist. If you don't know that, you need to do a little bit more learning.

 

Your ability to think a few steps ahead is even less than mine OB. Obviously you think his statement about objective proof has merit then.

 

Your estimation of what science can accomplish is way way way to high OB. Consider that.

 

lol...a little more learnin'. Then I will know like you. Gotcha.

 

Tell me this OB. What is the specific mechanism for why when I here Jesu, The Joy of Man's Desiring, that I feel calm. My wife doesn't, she doesn't even like Bach.

 

And when I read the Bible and hear it's words, why does that ring true to me but not for some. I would please like the specific mechanisms for such.

 

You too Scott...

 

Thanks,

 

Ed

[oddbird1963]

End3,

 

You are being disingenuous toward Scott. If you knew anything about science you would know that there is no scientific methodology for proving that something does not exist. If you don't know that, you need to do a little bit more learning.

 

Your ability to think a few steps ahead is even less than mine OB. Obviously you think his statement about objective proof has merit then.

 

Your estimation of what science can accomplish is way way way to high OB. Consider that.

 

lol...a little more learnin'. Then I will know like you. Gotcha.

 

Tell me this OB. What is the specific mechanism for why when I here Jesu, The Joy of Man's Desiring, that I feel calm. My wife doesn't, she doesn't even like Bach.

 

And when I read the Bible and hear it's words, why does that ring true to me but not for some. I would please like the specific mechanisms for such.

 

You too Scott...

 

Thanks,

 

Ed

 

 

Concerning your remark about jumping a few steps ahead, I'm not sure what you are referring to. You are characteristically vague and bereft of any real context. I didn't jump ahead at all. I had no intention of jumping ahead. I merely commented on something you said.

 

You said:

Christian, "Give me the methodology that science uses for proof there is no God"

 

In response to that, I pointed out that science does not provide methodology for proving things don't exist. It is an unreasonable expectation. IF you are scientifically trained, you should know that. Thus, the point you make here seems disingenuous. Refresh my memory. It could be faulty. You DID say, in another thread, that you are scientifically trained, didn't you?

 

What I did proffer was two points:

1) with science, you conclude what IS warranted and unwarranted based on evidence. Not a wild statement. That's just what science does.

2) with science you show how the evidence supports an alternative explanation.

 

Both of these statements are true, do you agree? If not, why not?

 

You then rush to unwarranted assumptions (once again, characteristically rash and presumptuous) about my assessment of the abilities of science and sconnor's position. Perhaps you can present quotes from past posts of mine that reveal an unwarranted optimism about the abilities of science. And did I give any assessment of sconnor's arguments? You take what little I said and come to wild and baseless conclusions about what I think. You know, that is once again characteristic of your reasoning process.

 

I'm not sure if I'm the person to ask about neurobiology of the brain. But I don't think I will try to answer you just yet. You still haven't answered my questions from my previous post. (A habit that is , yet again, characteristic of your approach to these forums).

 

Peace!

OB

[Guest end3]

End3,

 

You are being disingenuous toward Scott. If you knew anything about science you would know that there is no scientific methodology for proving that something does not exist. If you don't know that, you need to do a little bit more learning.

 

Your ability to think a few steps ahead is even less than mine OB. Obviously you think his statement about objective proof has merit then.

 

Your estimation of what science can accomplish is way way way to high OB. Consider that.

 

lol...a little more learnin'. Then I will know like you. Gotcha.

 

Tell me this OB. What is the specific mechanism for why when I here Jesu, The Joy of Man's Desiring, that I feel calm. My wife doesn't, she doesn't even like Bach.

 

And when I read the Bible and hear it's words, why does that ring true to me but not for some. I would please like the specific mechanisms for such.

 

You too Scott...

 

Thanks,

 

Ed

 

 

Concerning your remark about jumping a few steps ahead, I'm not sure what you are referring to. You are characteristically vague and bereft of any real context. I didn't jump ahead at all. I had no intention of jumping ahead. I merely commented on something you said.

 

You said:

Christian, "Give me the methodology that science uses for proof there is no God"

 

In response to that, I pointed out that science does not provide methodology for proving things don't exist. It is an unreasonable expectation. IF you are scientifically trained, you should know that. Thus, the point you make here seems disingenuous. Refresh my memory. It could be faulty. You DID say, in another thread, that you are scientifically trained, didn't you?

 

What I did proffer was two points:

1) with science, you conclude what IS warranted and unwarranted based on evidence. Not a wild statement. That's just what science does.

2) with science you show how the evidence supports an alternative explanation.

 

Both of these statements are true, do you agree? If not, why not?

 

You then rush to unwarranted assumptions (once again, characteristically rash and presumptuous) about my assessment of the abilities of science and sconnor's position. Perhaps you can present quotes from past posts of mine that reveal an unwarranted optimism about the abilities of science. And did I give any assessment of sconnor's arguments? You take what little I said and come to wild and baseless conclusions about what I think. You know, that is once again characteristic of your reasoning process.

 

I'm not sure if I'm the person to ask about neurobiology of the brain. But I don't think I will try to answer you just yet. You still haven't answered my questions from my previous post. (A habit that is , yet again, characteristic of your approach to these forums).

 

Peace!

OB

 

The point I am trying to make is that there are mechanisms for brain functions, but that science doesn't even touch the hem of understanding them with exacting precision.

 

To illustrate my point, if I were Scott, then my response to your response would be something like the following:

 

"You DO NOT have the exact brain mechanisms and your science lacks any PROOF in reality.....blah blah. Idiosncratic bullshit response. blah blah".

 

And whatever evidence that you now show will have zip to do with that forgone conclusion from now on.

 

The point is also that there are exact mechanisms for what happens in the brain but very likely we will never know exactly what they are. So how can we rule out that there may be a mechanism for commuication with God by hearing?.....which was one of my responses to Scott that was then met AGAIN with the same "YOU DO NOT...blah blah".

 

 

Yes, Peace, and thank you for allowing my vent.

[oddbird1963]

The point I am trying to make is that there are mechanisms for brain functions, but that science doesn't even touch the hem of understanding them with exacting precision.

 

To illustrate my point, if I were Scott, then my response to your response would be something like the following:

 

"You DO NOT have the exact brain mechanisms and your science lacks any PROOF in reality.....blah blah. Idiosncratic bullshit response. blah blah".

 

And whatever evidence that you now show will have zip to do with that forgone conclusion from now on.

 

The point is also that there are exact mechanisms for what happens in the brain but very likely we will never know exactly what they are. So how can we rule out that there may be a mechanism for commuication with God by hearing?.....which was one of my responses to Scott that was then met AGAIN with the same "YOU DO NOT...blah blah".

 

 

Yes, Peace, and thank you for allowing my vent.

 

I think you may be leaving out some relevant information about sconnors' albeit harsh, but not irrelevant responses to you.

 

Most atheists do not say, "There is absolutely zero chance that a god exists." In other words they don't totally rule out the possibility of a god. The position is there is so little evidence to warrant belief in a god, no provision is made in life for dealing with the existence of a god.

 

My assessment is that I have more chance of being struck by a meteor and killed than I do of discovering that a god exists. I can't totally rule out the possibility, but I'm not going to start wearing a titanium helmet around in hopes of reducing the damage a meteorite could do if it konked me on the head.

 

The argument, "So how can we rule out that there may be a mechanism for communication with God by hearing?....." falls into the same category. It is far more likely that science will come very close to explaining the mechanisms. And that explanation will be naturalistic.

 

Christian apologists tend to overly downplay possibility of the capabilities of science for future discoveries in order to prop up a god of the gaps argument. And that is what your point is, another god of the gaps approach. Science will close that gap more and more with naturalistic explanations based on evidence and there will be less and less room for a god to intervene.

[Guest end3]

I think you may be leaving out some relevant information about sconnors' albeit harsh, but not irrelevant responses to you.

 

Most atheists do not say, "There is absolutely zero chance that a god exists." In other words they don't totally rule out the possibility of a god. The position is there is so little evidence to warrant belief in a god, no provision is made in life for dealing with the existence of a god.

 

Again, the Bible talks about a Spiritual understanding. So unless there is scientific methodology to measure Spiritual, I think his dog is barking up a tree with nothing in it.

 

The argument, "So how can we rule out that there may be a mechanism for communication with God by hearing?....." falls into the same category. It is far more likely that science will come very close to explaining the mechanisms. And that explanation will be naturalistic.

 

You have your faith, I have mine.

 

Christian apologists tend to overly downplay possibility of the capabilities of science for future discoveries in order to prop up a god of the gaps argument. And that is what your point is, another god of the gaps approach. Science will close that gap more and more with naturalistic explanations based on evidence and there will be less and less room for a god to intervene.

 

It is a matter of perspective. I see God as a savior from the gaps that humanity leaves.

[oddbird1963]

Again, the Bible talks about a Spiritual understanding. So unless there is scientific methodology to measure Spiritual, I think his dog is barking up a tree with nothing in it.

I have no idea what you mean by that. It sounds as if you are using the term "Spiritual understanding" to to try to excuse your expressed thoughts from logic, coherency, consistency , reason and just plain making sense.

 

And, once again you have demonstrated no proficiency with analyzing and applying the bible.

 

So, when you talk about "Spiritual understanding" I don't know what you think you are communicating.

 

You have your faith, I have mine.

 

Christians typically use this line to try to bring atheists, agnostics, skeptics and freethinkers down to the same non-rational level upon which they sit.

 

But if you actually look at what I said, it doesn't involve faith any more than a stock market prediction or a final four prediction involves faith. I merely pointed out the very poor track record that Christians who employ their arguments from ignorance (aka "God of the gaps") have had.

 

If that is your definition of faith - prediction based on documented track record - then I would say you have a very shallow and uninformed definition of faith.

 

It is a matter of perspective. I see God as a savior from the gaps that humanity leaves.

 

Yes. I'm certain that's of great comfort to you, although you have to equivocate and ignore what we are actually discussing to achieve your comfort. I'm talking about the God of the Gaps argument which is a form of the logical fallacy better known as "argument from ignorance." The word 'ignorance' being used means lack of knowledge and is not a reference to a person's general character.

 

You are trying to turn "God of the gaps" into something totally different based on a reactionary theological position.

 

So, if you are holding out some hope that there is an as of yet unknown invisible mechanism through which god talks to us, science has the advantage based on the track record of those who have held to the 'god of the gaps' over the years.

[Guest confused idiot]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

[Antlerman]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

What specifically is it about either that is stressing you out? Is it that it shakes certain assumptions loose and you don't know where things fit for yourself?

 

I should add one thing, evolution and atheism are not bedfellows. To accept the validity of the theory of evolution does not entail one having to reject a belief in a God. The only thing it really does require is that any sort of literal understanding of a creation myth, such as the story in Genesis 1, be given up. All accepting evolution means is you can't read Genesis as a record of science, which most people don't anyway except for the very stubborn or truly ignorant.

[Phanta]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

 

It sounds like what you are dealing with a life crisis. That makes you a normal person who is hurting and struggling right now. It doesn't make you "insane". Confusion is very painful for the brain, so your brain is in overdrive trying to fix confusion. Figuring these things out will take time. In the meantime, you feel crappy, but it can't really do you serious harm, no matter how convincing it is. It will not make you insane.

 

Are you having panic attacks?

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

What specifically is it about either that is stressing you out? Is it that it shakes certain assumptions loose and you don't know where things fit for yourself?

 

I should add one thing, evolution and atheism are not bedfellows. To accept the validity of the theory of evolution does not entail one having to reject a belief in a God. The only thing it really does require is that any sort of literal understanding of a creation myth, such as the story in Genesis 1, be given up. All accepting evolution means is you can't read Genesis as a record of science, which most people don't anyway except for the very stubborn or truly ignorant.

 

It's like this... I analyze Christianity, everything about it. What the Bible says, what Christians say, the way life works. In my mind, however indoctrinated and brainwashed it may be, I see Christianity as definite truth, and any "truth" that goes against that is the result of God turning people over to a reprobate mind, to where they will believe a lie, as certain scriptures say. I see things from this mindset, I see Christianity for what it is after analyzing it. What I see, I can't stand. It brings fear, it brings confusion, it brings anger. I want to run from it. It haunts me. Every waking hour, I'm thinking, trying to put pieces together. I'm tired of thinking, but I can't shut my mind off. The more I think, the worse I get. The worse I get, the more I think. It's a mind trap. What if this haunting feeling is conviction, and all I can do is accept this truth that depresses me, and give in to it? What if it's my mind rationalizing things, on the verge of finally seeing what complete bullshit all this is? What if it's demonic oppression, trying to show me a false interpretation of Christianity? What if all of it is true, but I'm feeling the way I am about God/the Bible/Christianity because I'm not one of the "chosen few" elected for salvation, and the reason I couldn't find God is because I CAN'T find God? I don't know. All I know is... I want to run far, far away from it all. Religion is poison. Complete poison. Yet, it just might be true. I feel, if my mindset is correct, that all I can do is either give in to the most depressing things I have ever known and live that life as a complete zombie, hoping that I MIGHT can get into heaven, or to live in willful rebellion against God, waiting for the day of judgment when I get cast into hell. That's it.

 

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

 

It sounds like what you are dealing with a life crisis. That makes you a normal person who is hurting and struggling right now. It doesn't make you "insane". Confusion is very painful for the brain, so your brain is in overdrive trying to fix confusion. Figuring these things out will take time. In the meantime, you feel crappy, but it can't really do you serious harm, no matter how convincing it is. It will not make you insane.

 

Are you having panic attacks?

 

Phanta

 

I don't think I've ever had a panic attack, so I'm not sure what they're like.

[Phanta]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

What specifically is it about either that is stressing you out? Is it that it shakes certain assumptions loose and you don't know where things fit for yourself?

 

I should add one thing, evolution and atheism are not bedfellows. To accept the validity of the theory of evolution does not entail one having to reject a belief in a God. The only thing it really does require is that any sort of literal understanding of a creation myth, such as the story in Genesis 1, be given up. All accepting evolution means is you can't read Genesis as a record of science, which most people don't anyway except for the very stubborn or truly ignorant.

 

It's like this... I analyze Christianity, everything about it. What the Bible says, what Christians say, the way life works. In my mind, however indoctrinated and brainwashed it may be, I see Christianity as definite truth, and any "truth" that goes against that is the result of God turning people over to a reprobate mind, to where they will believe a lie, as certain scriptures say. I see things from this mindset, I see Christianity for what it is after analyzing it. What I see, I can't stand. It brings fear, it brings confusion, it brings anger. I want to run from it. It haunts me. Every waking hour, I'm thinking, trying to put pieces together. I'm tired of thinking, but I can't shut my mind off. The more I think, the worse I get. The worse I get, the more I think. It's a mind trap. What if this haunting feeling is conviction, and all I can do is accept this truth that depresses me, and give in to it? What if it's my mind rationalizing things, on the verge of finally seeing what complete bullshit all this is? What if it's demonic oppression, trying to show me a false interpretation of Christianity? What if all of it is true, but I'm feeling the way I am about God/the Bible/Christianity because I'm not one of the "chosen few" elected for salvation, and the reason I couldn't find God is because I CAN'T find God? I don't know. All I know is... I want to run far, far away from it all. Religion is poison. Complete poison. Yet, it just might be true. I feel, if my mindset is correct, that all I can do is either give in to the most depressing things I have ever known and live that life as a complete zombie, hoping that I MIGHT can get into heaven, or to live in willful rebellion against God, waiting for the day of judgment when I get cast into hell. That's it.

 

So you believe Christianity and your suffering comes from believing that your choice is between believing in and protecting yourself from something evil and going to Hell. Is that right?

 

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

 

It sounds like what you are dealing with a life crisis. That makes you a normal person who is hurting and struggling right now. It doesn't make you "insane". Confusion is very painful for the brain, so your brain is in overdrive trying to fix confusion. Figuring these things out will take time. In the meantime, you feel crappy, but it can't really do you serious harm, no matter how convincing it is. It will not make you insane.

 

Are you having panic attacks?

 

Phanta

 

I don't think I've ever had a panic attack, so I'm not sure what they're like.

 

People often experience it and think they are having a heart attack, stroke, or are "going crazy". They're not, but that's often what they conclude because of the power of the feeling: high adrenaline rushes, lowered thinking capabilities, etc. Panic attacks aren't dangerous at all; they feel real dangerous. The acute stage lasts usually a handful of seconds and then they taper off into regular anxiety.

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

What specifically is it about either that is stressing you out? Is it that it shakes certain assumptions loose and you don't know where things fit for yourself?

 

I should add one thing, evolution and atheism are not bedfellows. To accept the validity of the theory of evolution does not entail one having to reject a belief in a God. The only thing it really does require is that any sort of literal understanding of a creation myth, such as the story in Genesis 1, be given up. All accepting evolution means is you can't read Genesis as a record of science, which most people don't anyway except for the very stubborn or truly ignorant.

 

It's like this... I analyze Christianity, everything about it. What the Bible says, what Christians say, the way life works. In my mind, however indoctrinated and brainwashed it may be, I see Christianity as definite truth, and any "truth" that goes against that is the result of God turning people over to a reprobate mind, to where they will believe a lie, as certain scriptures say. I see things from this mindset, I see Christianity for what it is after analyzing it. What I see, I can't stand. It brings fear, it brings confusion, it brings anger. I want to run from it. It haunts me. Every waking hour, I'm thinking, trying to put pieces together. I'm tired of thinking, but I can't shut my mind off. The more I think, the worse I get. The worse I get, the more I think. It's a mind trap. What if this haunting feeling is conviction, and all I can do is accept this truth that depresses me, and give in to it? What if it's my mind rationalizing things, on the verge of finally seeing what complete bullshit all this is? What if it's demonic oppression, trying to show me a false interpretation of Christianity? What if all of it is true, but I'm feeling the way I am about God/the Bible/Christianity because I'm not one of the "chosen few" elected for salvation, and the reason I couldn't find God is because I CAN'T find God? I don't know. All I know is... I want to run far, far away from it all. Religion is poison. Complete poison. Yet, it just might be true. I feel, if my mindset is correct, that all I can do is either give in to the most depressing things I have ever known and live that life as a complete zombie, hoping that I MIGHT can get into heaven, or to live in willful rebellion against God, waiting for the day of judgment when I get cast into hell. That's it.

 

So you believe Christianity and your suffering comes from believing that your choice is between believing in and protecting yourself from something evil and going to Hell. Is that right?

 

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

 

It sounds like what you are dealing with a life crisis. That makes you a normal person who is hurting and struggling right now. It doesn't make you "insane". Confusion is very painful for the brain, so your brain is in overdrive trying to fix confusion. Figuring these things out will take time. In the meantime, you feel crappy, but it can't really do you serious harm, no matter how convincing it is. It will not make you insane.

 

Are you having panic attacks?

 

Phanta

 

I don't think I've ever had a panic attack, so I'm not sure what they're like.

 

People often experience it and think they are having a heart attack, stroke, or are "going crazy". They're not, but that's often what they conclude because of the power of the feeling: high adrenaline rushes, lowered thinking capabilities, etc. Panic attacks aren't dangerous at all; they feel real dangerous. The acute stage lasts usually a handful of seconds and then they taper off into regular anxiety.

 

Phanta

 

I don't know that it's that simple, it's really not an easy thing to explain. It's really just being stuck with a sucky worldview and not being able to escape from it. That's the simplest way I know to explain it without going into specifics.

[Phanta]

I don't know that it's that simple, it's really not an easy thing to explain. It's really just being stuck with a sucky worldview and not being able to escape from it. That's the simplest way I know to explain it without going into specifics.

 

That's OK. I'm trying to understand.

 

It sounds like there are some things you still believe, but you find them abhorrent and you fear consequences if you reject them. It also sounds like part of you is starting to question if it all is real at all. That part is fighting with the part of you that believes. You're not sure if you believe because it's true, or because you're brain is trained to believe. Sorting this out is exhausting and troubling on a regular basis.

 

Is that right? That's what I got from what you wrote.

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

I don't know that it's that simple, it's really not an easy thing to explain. It's really just being stuck with a sucky worldview and not being able to escape from it. That's the simplest way I know to explain it without going into specifics.

 

That's OK. I'm trying to understand.

 

It sounds like there are some things you still believe, but you find them abhorrent and you fear consequences if you reject them. It also sounds like part of you is starting to question if it all is real at all. That part is fighting with the part of you that believes. You're not sure if you believe because it's true, or because you're brain is trained to believe. Sorting this out is exhausting and troubling on a regular basis.

 

Is that right? That's what I got from what you wrote.

 

Phanta

 

That's right.

[Phanta]

I don't know that it's that simple, it's really not an easy thing to explain. It's really just being stuck with a sucky worldview and not being able to escape from it. That's the simplest way I know to explain it without going into specifics.

 

That's OK. I'm trying to understand.

 

It sounds like there are some things you still believe, but you find them abhorrent and you fear consequences if you reject them. It also sounds like part of you is starting to question if it all is real at all. That part is fighting with the part of you that believes. You're not sure if you believe because it's true, or because you're brain is trained to believe. Sorting this out is exhausting and troubling on a regular basis.

 

Is that right? That's what I got from what you wrote.

 

Phanta

 

That's right.

 

That is a hard time, then. I went through a similar mind trap recently, but coming mostly from the other direction. It is a mine field, and so stressful.

 

What do you currently look to for credible guidance? What speaks to you as authentic, dependable, and having your best interests in mind?

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

I don't know that it's that simple, it's really not an easy thing to explain. It's really just being stuck with a sucky worldview and not being able to escape from it. That's the simplest way I know to explain it without going into specifics.

 

That's OK. I'm trying to understand.

 

It sounds like there are some things you still believe, but you find them abhorrent and you fear consequences if you reject them. It also sounds like part of you is starting to question if it all is real at all. That part is fighting with the part of you that believes. You're not sure if you believe because it's true, or because you're brain is trained to believe. Sorting this out is exhausting and troubling on a regular basis.

 

Is that right? That's what I got from what you wrote.

 

Phanta

 

That's right.

 

That is a hard time, then. I went through a similar mind trap recently, but coming mostly from the other direction. It is a mine field, and so stressful.

 

What do you currently look to for credible guidance? What speaks to you as authentic, dependable, and having your best interests in mind?

 

Phanta

 

What speaks to me as "authentic, dependable, and having my best interests in mind"? Nothing, really.

[Antlerman]

It's like this... I analyze Christianity, everything about it. What the Bible says, what Christians say, the way life works.

Have you really, truly done this? There are so many different ways to look at it, to understanding it, to dissect it, to peel back its many layers and many facets, so much so that it is quite clear it is not one thing, and one thing only. I would challenge you that you are seeing only one understanding of something, calling it that, and getting yourself stressed about it. You have reduced it to a true/false equation, which frankly, is not the way of things, not the way life works.

 

It's true in some aspects, from some perspectives, and not true from others. It hardly all true, or all not true.

 

To prove my point, who all have you researched in seeking to know "everything about it"? What authors?

 

In my mind, however indoctrinated and brainwashed it may be, I see Christianity as definite truth, and any "truth" that goes against that is the result of God turning people over to a reprobate mind, to where they will believe a lie, as certain scriptures say.

It presents itself as truth, of course. And in some regards, from some perspectives it is, but not the end all of the matter. It is also wrong in some regards, from other perspectives. But being wrong in some regards, does not negate what is true. Nor does being true in some regards negates what is wrong.

 

I prefer a balanced and realistic approach to it, as with anything in life.

 

I see things from this mindset, I see Christianity for what it is after analyzing it. What I see, I can't stand. It brings fear, it brings confusion, it brings anger. I want to run from it.

Then by all means reject it. How can what you are seeing be true for you, if it's fruits are this in you??

 

You see, it's not about being "right". It's about finding peace, and growing, maturing, and becoming whole. If what you see in it brings you that, than who would argue that's bad? At the same token, if what you see in it causes you this, then who but a completely insensitive ideologue argue that its good for you?

 

Myself I left Christianity not because it had the 'facts' wrong. That's incidental really. The real reason was because it was causing distress for my heart. Notions of a God that burned people in hell for not have this doctrine here or there right, for not being this or that, did more harm than good. My leaving was about finding the good that was my heart to find, but wasn't for reason of their doctrines. The proof of it being the true course for me is its resultant fruits.

 

It's not about them saying "Truth here! Buy it now!" It's about you being true to what is in your heart that you are seeking to find. That's the truth, not their system they adopt for themselves for whatever reasons it suits them, if in fact it truly even does.

 

It haunts me. Every waking hour, I'm thinking, trying to put pieces together. I'm tired of thinking, but I can't shut my mind off.

Breath. Stop the thoughts and be. Allow what is to fill you. Be an observer of it and take no thought of it. Do this several times a day, if even for a minute at a time. That's where the truth will be for you. Not in reasoning it out, but in living it in that moment. The rest will follow, and it will be the truth for you.

 

The more I think, the worse I get. The worse I get, the more I think. It's a mind trap.

Deliberately break it. Stop and just simply be in the moment. Be persistent with yourself to stop. Then, pick up your busy thoughts later. You'll begin to take a very different perspective on them.

 

You will not find an answer to them doing what you're doing now. You can't. There more to being you, than just your thoughts about this or that.

 

What if this haunting feeling is conviction, and all I can do is accept this truth that depresses me, and give in to it?

The fact that you're trying to reason it, shows you can't possibly begin to answer that question. It's only in finding your center, finding you beyond your thoughts, that the question finds and answer. It's not in that book there, or that teaching here. It is in you. And you can't find it out there.

 

What if it's demonic oppression, trying to show me a false interpretation of Christianity? What if all of it is true, but I'm feeling the way I am about God/the Bible/Christianity because I'm not one of the "chosen few" elected for salvation, and the reason I couldn't find God is because I CAN'T find God?

Your even worrying certainly says that it's important to you! And if these sorts of questions are important, then I would say that you are hardly anyone who is at any risk of just falling through the cracks into some metaphorical hell. Your problem is how you are going about resolving this for yourself.

 

You will have to learn that "what if, what if, what if..." questions are a spiral into anxiety hell!! I understand what that is quite well. You don't deserve that, and what beauty and peace and love there is in being, cannot begin to become more in you while you are busy trying to figure it all out in you head! You can't! Stop it. Just be. Breath, and it will start to sort out, naturally from within, not from you thinking you can reason it out. God, you sound like me 20 years ago! Stop it.

 

Religion is poison. Complete poison. Yet, it just might be true.

Again, it doesn't have to be all true vs. all false. Baby and bathwater. Grow beyond it, as that's where you're finding yourself forced to go in all of this. But it helps to understand that there was some good in there to that in fact did have value to you. You just have to allow yourself the space to take ownership of it, away from those priests and pastors who want you to think they own "God". They most absolutely, definitely do not.

 

I feel, if my mindset is correct, that all I can do is either give in to the most depressing things I have ever known and live that life as a complete zombie, hoping that I MIGHT can get into heaven, or to live in willful rebellion against God, waiting for the day of judgment when I get cast into hell. That's it.

Bummer. It's truly not those two choices. Again, they don't own this. You do. Everyone does.

 

Peace

[Franko47]

 

 

 

 

You see, it's not about being "right". It's about finding peace, and growing, maturing, and becoming whole. If what you see in it brings you that, than who would argue that's bad? At the same token, if what you see in it causes you this, then who but a completely insensitive ideologue argue that its good for you?

 

Myself I left Christianity not because it had the 'facts' wrong. That's incidental really. The real reason was because it was causing distress for my heart. Notions of a God that burned people in hell for not have this doctrine here or there right, for not being this or that, did more harm than good. My leaving was about finding the good that was my heart to find, but wasn't for reason of their doctrines. The proof of it being the true course for me is its resultant fruits.

 

It's not about them saying "Truth here! Buy it now!" It's about you being true to what is in your heart that you are seeking to find. That's the truth, not their system they adopt for themselves for whatever reasons it suits them, if in fact it truly even does.

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is very much like what I went through. Many of my former Christian friends were startled when I confessed to them there were many things that they believed that went against "my heart". It was as though my honesty, introspection, idealism, and so on was meaningless compared to what they thought was the way they were supposed to think- to blindly and obediently obey the Bible and their doctrinal teachings. To blindly believe in the ideas of men living thousands of years ago without question. And yet, in their own way, as I've noticed with many Christians, they were rationalizing their beliefs as well. They just felt more comfortable doing so as long as they remained "loyal".

 

Confused, you should consider the fact that you have a lot of years ahead of you to explore and come to terms with the world and what you've been told about God and Christian belief and so on. You don't have to figure it all out by the weekend, and you should resist the kinds of religious people who always press for a "snap commitment" to their folly.

 

Also, check out the honesty of various people. You know, to be honest, part of the reason that I really like this site is because of the honesty and willingness by many members here to admit that they don't know everything, that they still have doubts either pro or con about Christianity, and certainly are not trying to replace one set of dogma with another, as our friend Mr. End would have you believe.

 

The best way to come to terms with the "what to believe" dilemma is to study and observe. Talk to people, observe why they believe what they do, and also the methods they employ to try and convince other people of what they're into. The answers are all there, in human thinking, cultural tradition, and the desire for answers and truth. You need to get away from wrestling with your personal dilemma and start observing what is going on with the rest of your fellow humans. Religion and spiritualism can be very self-absorbing, egocentric, and very self-serving at times, and that can blind one to what others are experiencing, or alternatives to what we sometimes think are the only choices.

[StevoMuso]

The best way to come to terms with the "what to believe" dilemma is to study and observe. Talk to people, observe why they believe what they do, and also the methods they employ to try and convince other people of what they're into. The answers are all there, in human thinking, cultural tradition, and the desire for answers and truth. You need to get away from wrestling with your personal dilemma and start observing what is going on with the rest of your fellow humans. Religion and spiritualism can be very self-absorbing, egocentric, and very self-serving at times, and that can blind one to what others are experiencing, or alternatives to what we sometimes think are the only choices.

This is brilliant. There is no rush - take your time and observe. Put your beliefs and their accompanying emotions "on hold 'till further notice" and take your time. You may find contentment in being a spectator for a season or two rather than an active participant. Brilliant post Franko.

[Crazy Donna]

I heard about a guy once that, as a Christian, he started to study evolution and atheism. He ended up losing his mind and going insane, out of confusion I guess. I think I'm going down the same path.

 

You are not going insane, you're just a bit overwhelmed. Christianity is a huge thing, and there are so many facets to it, that it's hard to get yourself untangled sometimes. What you are beginning to realise is that christianity is full of holes, and doesn't fit with the reality you know. You're trying to fit christianity into a reality which does not match, like trying to fit jigsaw puzzle pieces from different puzzles together. They don't match.

 

People go insane for all sorts of reasons. I guarantee you, this won't send you insane. Anyone who 'went insane' from this kind of thing was already going insane before they started examining their faith. They just used it as an excuse for going crazy. "Oh, yes, I started looking at my faith rationally from an evolutionary perspective and it made me crazy!!!" Just more lies designed to keep you from examining your faith. I suspect you were told this by a christian? It's just designed to manipulate you into being afraid to think critically about christianity. This will not make you crazy, and right now you're just overwhelmed. NOT CRAZY! I should know (look at my username hint hint).

 

You need a mental time out. I think you need to do something you really enjoy that you can concentrate on. What about computer games? Try playing computer games for twenty minutes. It'll at least get you thinking about something else. You won't have time to let your mind wander too much if you're focused on something else.

 

Now, I'm guessing you have a lot of questions that are bothering you. I would like you to write all these questions and queries, as they come to you, in a post, so that the rest of us can have a look at them. We might have read a book on something and might be able to answer some of your questions. What sorts of things bother you?

 

The fear, confusion, and anger you are experiencing are probably the start of your grieving process. You have used christianity to define you for a long time, and now you are losing it, you are feeling a bit lost. You are afraid of the consequences. You are confused about the options. You are angry that you've been deceived.

 

Firstly, you are not ditching christianity. You have tried very valiantly to be a good christian, to do god's will, and to demonstrate your commitment to god and his plan for you in your daily life, and to be a beacon to humanity. However, the 'relationship' has failed, and it is NOT BECAUSE OF YOU! Get that through your head. You tried very, very hard, and invested yourself in something that has ultimately begun to crumble. If there WAS a god, and he LOVED you, wouldn't he restore your faith? Wouldn't he let you lean on him and bolster your faith during this tough time? Yet he hasn't. He has ditched you. Either this god doesn't want you, or more likely, he doesn't exist. But WE want you. I happen to love reading your posts. I think you have a smart, insightful mind, and you remind me a lot of myself. You are a valuable human being, a precious living creature, and you matter to US, so who gives a fuck if you don't matter to a god that, based on this turn of events, probably doesn't exist. If god does exist, and the bible is an accurate representation of him, then there is nothing any of us can do to be saved. If he exists, he has created us knowing that our faith would fail, done nothing to support that faith, and has set up a system of salvation that he knows even before you were created that you would fail. You either believe or you don't. You cannot force yourself to believe in something when you don't believe in it. It is impossible. You have done probably more than most to be a good christian and give yourself to god. The fact that this is distressing you so deeply is evidence of that. You feel the pain because you were not a superficial christian. You thought and felt deeply about things. That is why this hurts so bad.

 

You're confused. Your mind is running "Happy Christian Operating System" and you are trying to apply it to the rest of the world, and it doesn't fit. This makes you uncomfortable and distressed. I want you to just close your eyes and imagine what a world without a creator god would be like. Describe it. What would society be like? What would crime be like? How would people behave? It is very hard to take the jesus goggles off, so just do it as a hypothetical exercise to begin with. Think about times when you thought you might have been feeling god's presence, or times when god may have blessed you. Are their other explanations? Examine them critically. You can post them here and we'll all have a look and try to guide you through this. My worldview as a christian didn't match reality, and I often just ignored the things that didn't add up. Very selfless prayers for others that were ignored. Experiences in my life that I gave to god, and got nothing. Times when I prayed for protection, and was still harmed, or prayed for help and got nothing. Sometimes I would think that god was telling me to take a certain option, and that my objective was right, and then I would fail dismally at an enterprise and wonder why god had led me to believe I would succeed, and then let me fail. I felt like a total failure as a christian, because everyone else was so blessed and had it so easy, and yet my life was terrible. I endured so much for god, and got nothing in return so far as confirmation of his approval. Just one kick in the teeth after another. Eventually, I dared to think that perhaps god didn't exist. When I looked at my life from this perspective, all the bad things that happened to me just became random events. It was SO much easier to deal with emotionally when I wasn't blaming myself or my relationship with god for all the bad experiences that were coming my way. When I tried, just as an exercise, to see reality without god, and to see my place in the world without blame or blessing from god, god just became a too-complicated explanation when a simple one would do.

 

You need to do some reading, either in real life or online. If you haven't already, check out the Wikipedia articles on the 'creation-evolution controversy'. There is no controversy in scientific circles about evolution, it is one of the most heavily supported scientific theories ever proposed, but creationists are hell bent on getting religion into schools, and they think that evolution is 'anti-god'. Evolution is just an explanation for how current critters got here, and it's a lot more realistic than 'god did it'. Humans have seen evolution in action. Anyone who claims to have 'seen' god is probably mentally ill.

 

You need to read with your 'bullshit detector' set to 'melt mode'. Before you read ANYTHING, look at who wrote it, and ask yourself whether this person is presenting the information impartially, or whether they might have a vested interest in you believing a certain way.

 

Just post any questions you have in this thread and I'll have a look at them. If you're really desperate, I may consider making my email address available.

 

You'll get through this. Just take it a bit at a time. Set aside some time to just 'switch off' from thinking. It'll make you feel better.

 

I really hope you feel better soon. I know that all of this is very traumatic, but there is nothing wrong with you, okay? What you are feeling is totally natural, and is a totally normal response to what you are going through. The truth will not send you insane. You owe it to yourself to find out what the truth is for you. You are a smart person with an inquiring mind, and christian bullshit is not going to cut it for you. You need to find your own answers, not be fed christian propaganda from other christians.

 

You are afraid of believing a lie. If god created the world, why would he create so much evidence for the 'lie' of evolution? Why would he create a universe that sabotages his human creations? If god created the universe, you would think that it would correspond to the creation story, and the bible. Yet it doesn't. The creation in Genesis gets it all wrong. If god existed, and the bible was true, then the natural world would mesh seamlessly with the world presented in the bible. We would see god in action all the time. Things wouldn't evolve, because they would not need to. There would be no starving people, because the faithful prayers of children would result in food, medicine, and other essential things being provided by god. There would be no disease amongst christians. Life would be easy because god would enable people to do great things. Yet the real world's testimony is the antithesis of what we would expect. Children starve. Innocent people suffer. Geological evidence indicates that the world is far older than six thousand years. The only way creationists can make the world match the bible is to lie about the world. That is a pretty telling fact right there.

 

I have a book called "Evolution and the Myth of Creationism" by Berra. It is VERY good, and helped me understand evolution and creationism. If you could just read this one book, it would help you a lot from the scientific perspective. It breaks stuff down into sections about creationism, and then debunks it. It's only a small book, but it helped me immensely.

 

Hope things get better. Don't let it all get you down. You're too smart to be beaten by this. Ask yourself "How important will THIS be in a year's time?" Whenever you are confronted with an obstacle. You'll get there.

[Antlerman]

Yes, this is very much like what I went through. Many of my former Christian friends were startled when I confessed to them there were many things that they believed that went against "my heart". It was as though my honesty, introspection, idealism, and so on was meaningless compared to what they thought was the way they were supposed to think- to blindly and obediently obey the Bible and their doctrinal teachings.

It occurs to me the crux of the issue is that people who do this as you describe are wanting the answers given to them, not what you or I, or the OP is doing. To question the teachings they cling to threatens that illusion of security for them. But it is an illusion, and does not give genuine peace. Religion in this sense becomes a pacifier, a security blanket, rather than a tool that works for us as a means to an end that emerges from within the individual out to society and out to the world.

 

Religion and spiritualism can be very self-absorbing, egocentric, and very self-serving at times, and that can blind one to what others are experiencing, or alternatives to what we sometimes think are the only choices.

This can be true for the reasons I stated, that the experience of fear can lead some to pull the blanket over their heads thinking it will keep them safe from the unknown. As that happens, it certainly does lead to thinking only of yourself or egoism.

 

I know the term can cause confusion, but what I consider spirituality (your use of the word spiritualism is incorrect - that means communicating with departed spirits through a medium) is developing the whole human, of mind and heart and body. To go inward is not to increase egoism, but rather to move beyond your fears into greater freedom, and with that you move beyond yourself into others. Aspects of that philosophy, that discipline, can be there in traditional religions, however how many few actually moved beyond those huddled masses, cowering under the safety blankets of dogmas and theologies?

 

Those that can find a home within traditional religions for that pursuit, an actual spiritual life, seem to ride the edge between fitting into the school fish, and being outside their swirling shoals. Some groups can be so tightly packed in their cult-like group there is no room for any independence. And I think that comes full circle back to the whole issue.

[Guest confused idiot]

I was going to reply to your posts, but it said I had too much quoted text when I tried. So I'll do it this way.

 

@Antlerman:

 

Yeah, that's the thing. The fact that there are so many ways to look at it make it even more confusing than it is by itself. As far as "it" being true from some aspects and not true from others, what exactly is "it"? I agree with the fact that a lot of things in life are like that. But as far as Christianity, the Bible.... It's either absolute truth or a complete lie. It has to be one or the other, and nothing in between.

 

 

 

@Franko47: Good advice. I'll slow down, relax, observe, and think.

 

 

 

@Crazy Donna:

 

I'm not saying this guy went crazy because he started looking at evolution (although the person that told me the story might disagree on that), but I'm saying that he went crazy out of complete confusion, because of him being a Christian for so long, then seeing something that conflicted with his beliefs, looking at that, seeing evidence for it, then getting completely lost in confusion, making him lose his mind.

 

As for a mental time out... That's very good advice. The times when I'm crazy, anxious, and depressed, are when I'm alone, trying to figure things out. The only times when I'm not like that are when I'm busy with something. Going for a drive, hanging out with friends, listening to good music, watching videos, and other crap like that. Staying busy and occupied would clearly be a good thing. Who knows, maybe the pieces will come together when I'm not trying so hard to make them.

 

You want me to write every single question I have here? Hmm.... I don't know if I can do that. Even when I talk to someone face to face, I have so many questions just mixed up in my mind, jumbled up together, that I can't bring many of them to the surface, at least not at once. If that makes any sense. Heck, even when I try to pour my heart out in prayer, I still can't get very far, just because I'm at loss of words. It's like this.. I'll see one thing, question it, ask people about it, then it stays in the back of my mind. As time goes on, as I encounter more and more questions, they all pile up. I encounter more questions, and the pile keeps getting bigger and bigger. No matter how much I may want to, I can't collect every thought and put them all into an organized list. It's tiring even thinking about it.

 

You asked me what I see when I imagine a world without religion... I honestly don't know. Either way, with or without it, there would be good people, and there would be bad people. There would sure be less war, persecution, and stuff like that without it.

 

I haven't had many of those "God moments" that some people talk about having. I can think of one or two things that have to do with emotion, but emotions are deceptive, and that really means nothing. Even Christians agree with that. One thing, though, is one time when I thought I had committed the unforgivable sin. It was eating me up for a long time. Anyway, one night, I went to church. I started thinking "I wish he (the pastor) would say something about the unpardonable sin". He wasn't talking about that or anything having to do with it, but as soon as I started thinking that, he came out and said something like "There's nothing you can do that God won't forgive. Well, there's the unpardonable sin, but we're not even going to get into that right now. I don't care what you might have said or thought." At the time, that hit me pretty hard, I felt like that was being said directly to me, for me, by God, through this man. Coincidence? Possibly. A genuine word from God that I needed to hear? Possibly. I don't know. Like I said, feelings and emotions are deceptive.

[wonder]

confused, it seems that religion and christianity is literally driving you crazy. think about that for a minute.