I'm Completely Lost...

[Phanta]

That's good to hear.

 

Those period of despair are still tough. I'm sorry you're hurting so much. Hang in there.

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

That's good to hear.

 

Those period of despair are still tough. I'm sorry you're hurting so much. Hang in there.

 

Phanta

 

Thanks. When I first started posting here, I never imagined I would receive all this support, and that my thread would go on for 17 freaking pages. In a time where I don't know what the hell I'm doing, whether there's something wrong with my perceptions, or if I'm seeing everything as it is, whether I'm denying the one and only truth, or recongnizing it as a lie and embracing the real truth.... Your support means a lot. That goes out to every one of you.

[Phanta]

You're welcome. This is tough stuff to sort through. No easy answers. It's going to take time and work and patience. It's important to have support while one finds one's own way through such things.

 

This is, ideally, the role of parents or therapists (a good secular therapist will do this...apparently not a "Christian counselor", though, which is a shame).

 

Take it where you can get it, hey?

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

Dammit, this shit will fuck a person up. I want out of it. I still pray pretty much every day. Last night was one of my most depressing prayers. I was yelling "Fuck you!" and "I hate you, God!".... If God is real, and he's a loving God.... He has to understand. He has to understand why I can't fucking do this anymore.

[Shyone]

Dammit, this shit will fuck a person up. I want out of it. I still pray pretty much every day. Last night was one of my most depressing prayers. I was yelling "Fuck you!" and "I hate you, God!".... If God is real, and he's a loving God.... He has to understand. He has to understand why I can't fucking do this anymore.

This may not be helpful at all, but in the Testimonial section, someone wrote a "believer's last prayer." Everyone is different, but you might see something in there that helps.

[Guest confused idiot]

Dammit, this shit will fuck a person up. I want out of it. I still pray pretty much every day. Last night was one of my most depressing prayers. I was yelling "Fuck you!" and "I hate you, God!".... If God is real, and he's a loving God.... He has to understand. He has to understand why I can't fucking do this anymore.

This may not be helpful at all, but in the Testimonial section, someone wrote a "believer's last prayer." Everyone is different, but you might see something in there that helps.

 

I saw that.

[Phanta]

You sound angry. Frustrated.

[Guest confused idiot]

You sound angry. Frustrated.

 

At who?

[wonder]

Dammit, this shit will fuck a person up. I want out of it. I still pray pretty much every day. Last night was one of my most depressing prayers. I was yelling "Fuck you!" and "I hate you, God!".... If God is real, and he's a loving God.... He has to understand. He has to understand why I can't fucking do this anymore.

================================

damn confused this is deep. i can feel your frustration thru the internet. when you pray daily, what are you praying for. i mean what are you saying in your prayers.

[Phanta]

You sound angry. Frustrated.

 

At who?

 

Your concept of God.

 

Phanta

[Guest confused idiot]

Dammit, this shit will fuck a person up. I want out of it. I still pray pretty much every day. Last night was one of my most depressing prayers. I was yelling "Fuck you!" and "I hate you, God!".... If God is real, and he's a loving God.... He has to understand. He has to understand why I can't fucking do this anymore.

================================

damn confused this is deep. i can feel your frustration thru the internet. when you pray daily, what are you praying for. i mean what are you saying in your prayers.

 

Everything. For a long time I've tried my best to pray about all this shit. The doubts, confusions, depression, anxiety, mental insanity, sins, questions, problems, all of it. It's come to the point where I'm just like "God, I don't even know what to pray for anymore. I've got all this crap piled up together to the point where I don't even know how to express it anymore. I'm fucked up, and I don't know what to do. I need help."

 

 

You sound angry. Frustrated.

 

At who?

 

Your concept of God.

 

Phanta

 

I guess, yeah. I'm just angry period. I don't really know who or what, for sure. But I do know this. More than anything, I'm mad at myself. It's hard to explain, but I'll just say this. I know myself better than anybody. I know what I am inside. I know how fucked up I am. Every day, all I can think about is my own failures. I hate who I am. I've known for a long time how fucked up I am, in every single aspect of life. It goes beyond religion, but religion is a huge problem. But just recently I've begun to see that I'm even more fucked up than I ever knew. For a long time I tried to be a perfect little goody-goody Christian kid. As I see more and more how fucked up I am in the head, I see how I couldn't be that if I wanted to. I'm not even capable of it anymore. To hell with that, who gives a shit. I'm sick of living in my own failures. In defeat. God let me get fucked up in the head, so I doubt he'd care if I threw it all away. Who cares? Might as well become a drunk, a fornicator, a drug addict, a rebellious, fearless jackass that does whatever the hell he wants. Why not throw it all away? Who fucking cares? I don't. I don't give a shit about myself anymore, I'd rather throw it all away. Maybe I'll wind up dead in a ditch one day. Who gives a shit.

[Phanta]

Well...that's a choice you can make, to throw everything away. I reckon it won't make you care any less and will add to your suffering. The alternative to Christianity isn't total debauchery. That is an alternative, but it isn't the alternative. There are lots of middle ways.

 

Phanta

[wonder]

hey confused, you wont let yourself say "there is no god" because you know we came from somewhere. you cant say we came from somewhere while at the same time saying there is no god. but if you let yourself say that, you might find some relief. i mean you're scared to say there is no god because of what, you might go to hell when you die? but judging from what youre going thru youre in hell now, wouldnt you agree.

 

you let yourself say 'fuck god' and 'you hate god'. so why not go a step further and say there is no god. whats the worst that can happen. its all the illogicalness of religion thats driving you crazy. maybe its illogical because its all made up.

 

can you say the words "there is no god"? go ahead say it. c'mon type it. you aint gotta believe it. just say it. c'mon type the letters t-h-e-r-e i-s n-o g-o-d. youre scared to lie to yourself. go ahead though, whats the worst that can happen. youre already going crazy as it is. this wont make it any worse.

[wonder]

confused, ill ask u again.....can you see yourself as an atheist. are you willing to accept the term atheist when describing yourself, or are you afraid something bad will happen to you if you do.

[Franko47]

Just something I've noticed, C.I.

 

 

It sounds as though you are reluctant to "let go". You've been praying and stuff, and in some way still seem to want to believe in all of this religious mythology. How bad would it really be just to think for yourself, do things entirely based on your own benefit for a while, since nobody seems to be answering your prayers.

 

I prayed for years before waking up one day and realizing that none of them had ever been remotely answered. It was only until I began seeking help from real people, when I got some of the changes I was looking for.

 

Most people who drop the religious obsession don't turn to debauchery, crime, or other forms of extremely bad living. And what would be wrong with you enjoying a little romance or social fun ? At what point do you start living for yourself ? You say you are a failure; but pretty well everyone under thirty feels a bit like that at times. What criteria are you using ? You seem intelligent, somewhat social, and a likable person. Many here have suffered deeply from the dilemmas of life, and the frustrations of religious belief.

 

You need to write down a few things that might make you happy; and you need to forget about being "righteous" and start maybe being a little more "assertive". You have every right to be happy, and you have every right to want things out of life. Quit listening to people or sources that don't have your best interests and happiness in mind...

 

So far your current approach ain't working. Time to try a better strategy, and yes, more of a self-centered one. Remember, everything we do is for ourselves, even if it's virtuous. Quit denying your own needs and demand a little fun and improvement for yourself.

 

Your "stacking". Placing regret and pressure on yourself unnecessarily. I don't know you at all, but you seem like you might be an interesting person to get to know. You likely have some talents and nice aspects to your personality that you are reluctant to acknowledge.

 

Remember the joke about the guy who was hitting himself in the head with a hammer; when asked what he was doing, he replies, "Cuz it feels so good when I stop".

[Guest confused idiot]

Well...that's a choice you can make, to throw everything away. I reckon it won't make you care any less and will add to your suffering. The alternative to Christianity isn't total debauchery. That is an alternative, but it isn't the alternative. There are lots of middle ways.

 

Phanta

 

I wasn't saying that any path that is not Christianity leads to debauchery. Far from it. But what I am saying is, I have that choice to make, beliefs aside. Try to be moral, or throw it all away. At this point, might as well throw it all away. What the hell does it matter anymore? At the risk of repeating myself way too much, my hope is gone. Doesn't matter what I do with myself anymore, really.

 

 

 

hey confused, you wont let yourself say "there is no god" because you know we came from somewhere. you cant say we came from somewhere while at the same time saying there is no god. but if you let yourself say that, you might find some relief. i mean you're scared to say there is no god because of what, you might go to hell when you die? but judging from what youre going thru youre in hell now, wouldnt you agree.

 

you let yourself say 'fuck god' and 'you hate god'. so why not go a step further and say there is no god. whats the worst that can happen. its all the illogicalness of religion thats driving you crazy. maybe its illogical because its all made up.

 

can you say the words "there is no god"? go ahead say it. c'mon type it. you aint gotta believe it. just say it. c'mon type the letters t-h-e-r-e i-s n-o g-o-d. youre scared to lie to yourself. go ahead though, whats the worst that can happen. youre already going crazy as it is. this wont make it any worse.

 

Sure, I'll say it.

 

"THERE IS NO GOD!!!!"

 

...But I still don't believe it, so I really don't see the point in saying it. I'm not afraid to call myself an atheist. But I'm not one. I'm not trying to knock it, but I just don't see things that way.

 

 

Just something I've noticed, C.I.

 

 

It sounds as though you are reluctant to "let go". You've been praying and stuff, and in some way still seem to want to believe in all of this religious mythology. How bad would it really be just to think for yourself, do things entirely based on your own benefit for a while, since nobody seems to be answering your prayers.

 

I prayed for years before waking up one day and realizing that none of them had ever been remotely answered. It was only until I began seeking help from real people, when I got some of the changes I was looking for.

 

Most people who drop the religious obsession don't turn to debauchery, crime, or other forms of extremely bad living. And what would be wrong with you enjoying a little romance or social fun ? At what point do you start living for yourself ? You say you are a failure; but pretty well everyone under thirty feels a bit like that at times. What criteria are you using ? You seem intelligent, somewhat social, and a likable person. Many here have suffered deeply from the dilemmas of life, and the frustrations of religious belief.

 

You need to write down a few things that might make you happy; and you need to forget about being "righteous" and start maybe being a little more "assertive". You have every right to be happy, and you have every right to want things out of life. Quit listening to people or sources that don't have your best interests and happiness in mind...

 

So far your current approach ain't working. Time to try a better strategy, and yes, more of a self-centered one. Remember, everything we do is for ourselves, even if it's virtuous. Quit denying your own needs and demand a little fun and improvement for yourself.

 

Your "stacking". Placing regret and pressure on yourself unnecessarily. I don't know you at all, but you seem like you might be an interesting person to get to know. You likely have some talents and nice aspects to your personality that you are reluctant to acknowledge.

 

Remember the joke about the guy who was hitting himself in the head with a hammer; when asked what he was doing, he replies, "Cuz it feels so good when I stop".

 

"It sounds as though you are reluctant to "let go". You've been praying and stuff, and in some way still seem to want to believe in all of this religious mythology."

 

I don't know if I'd go that far. I have no desire to believe in such a huge mindfuck. This stuff will eat away at your freaking mind. I'm ready to get free of it, and, to a certain extent, I'm not afraid to do so. Actually, I'm at the point where I'm getting ready to deny it EVEN IF IT'S TRUE. Which could be a very dangerous thing, or it might not be. I don't know. The reason I pray still is because I just don't want to blow it, and I want the help that praying might bring. So far it hasn't. In one sense I don't want to wilfully deny "The Truth". But in another sense, I'm just like... "I can't stand this anymore, this has fucked me up. I don't care if it is true, I'm done with this shit."

 

"How bad would it really be just to think for yourself, do things entirely based on your own benefit for a while, since nobody seems to be answering your prayers."

 

That would be awesome.

 

"And what would be wrong with you enjoying a little romance or social fun ?"

 

None, depending on what the activity is.

 

"What criteria are you using ?"

 

My own. I like to be my own worst critic. I'll give myself credit where it's due. Right now, it's not.

 

"You have every right to be happy, and you have every right to want things out of life."

 

I'd like to think that, but do I really? I'm not so sure.

 

"Quit listening to people or sources that don't have your best interests and happiness in mind..."

 

That's very hard to do.

 

"Remember, everything we do is for ourselves, even if it's virtuous."

 

That right there... That made me think. Really, even though Christianity involves self denial, it's actually a selfish kind of thing. The one and only true reason that people become Christians.... is a selfish motive. Nobody is a Christian because they want to be one. They become Christians because they think "Oh shit I don't want to go to hell".

[Sconnor]

It's perfectly obvious, what is being said (and what has been said) is completely lost on you; You have habitually failed to grasp our points, as evidenced by your post here, which is why I and the other posters have to constantly bang our arguments into your head.

 

It took a long time to "wash in by the blood", so thinking outside probably doesn't come as easy for me as it once did.

 

Weird?!?

 

You are the one who believes in the christian god and asks us to take your word on it that Jesus is real, the claims of the bible and christianity are true and your particular superstitions have a reference in reality -- without providing a shred of objective evidence.

 

Which would be a point. I asked several times which scientific method would you like me to employ? Which really means science has no adequate method, but doesn't mean there won't be a time where we can't measure a correlation....and I maintain my position based on this rational conclusion.

 

I just want you to substantiate what you are saying with objective evidence -- it doesn't have to be scientific.

 

Additionally, using your skewed reasoning -- are you holding out for the possibility that there will be a time when we can measure aliens that have possessed our bodies like the scientolgists believe? In fact, can't we maintain ANY position or belief that way and call it a rational conclusion? Using your wacky reasoning we could believe in a whole host of absurd beliefs while claiming, well one day we'll be able to measure a correlation.

 

So, I'm still waiting for you to verify your claim: "the love of Jesus". has any reference in reality

 

That's an interesting thought, a study of people and their "works" by faith vs. "works" out of faith.

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

You made the assertion that the "love of Jesus" was a good thing in christianity that can't be done without it.

 

You still have NOT substantiated that the "love of Jesus" has ANY reference in reality. Can you provide objective evidence that the "love of Jesus" has ANY reference in reality?

 

If you can NOT provide objective evidence for your claim then you still have NOT answered my question: What "good things" in christianity can't be done without it?

 

I guess we will have to wait in faith for science.

 

So you have NO objective evidence for the assertions you make?

 

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" -- Christopher Hitchens

 

You have NOT provided ANYTHING that is supposedly good in christianity that can't be done without it. Christianity is bullshit and it really doesn't have any merit.

 

And while we're at it please provide objective evidence for the staple of your belief system: the resurrection. Please provide objective evidence that someone can be dead and buried for three days only to be resurrected -- alive and well and then provide objective evidence that this action and your particular christian criteria removes sin and saves. I've asked you time and time again to provide objective evidence for this but you ALWAYS ignore it -- go figure?!?

 

Scott, the resurrection has never been an issue with me...

 

Well, I have an issue with it. There is NO objective evidence that a man can be dead and buried for three days only to be resurrected alive and well and there is NO objective evidence that this action and your particular christian criteria removes sin and saves -- which places your beliefs in the silly superstitious file, with the other UNSUBSTANTIATED kooky beliefs like Scientolgist believing in Thetans and Muslims believing an arch-angel delivered god's final testament in the form of the qur'an.

 

You have NO creds. You can't verify ANYTHING you assert. It all amounts to you shoveling a lot of bullshit.

[Sconnor]

~continued~

 

...so I have never given it much contemplation nor has God given me any revelation on the subject. I have always just taken it to be. Sorry to disappoint.

 

You haven't contemplated where you are going to spend eternity? And how one is supposedly saved? I would have to venture that would be a huge issue with you?

 

But obviously -- like most christians -- you have to bury your head and steep yourself in ignorance to believe in the absurd and unbelievable.

 

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." -- Mark Twain

 

Didn't Mark Twain have a significant bad event in his life that possibly skewed his attitude? I think he did.

 

This is a non-sequitur -- just another fallacious argument in an enormous line of fallacious arguments. Mark Twain, having a bad event in his life doesn't take away from his stellar insight. He could have had the most tragic life known to mankind -- but it doesn't make what he has said any less insightful.

 

To reiterate and bolster my assertion -- FAITH is a deplorable method of obtaining and processing information; consider the devout Muslim: they too use faith to make extraordinary claims about Allah and how they experience him and have a, spiritual connection to him, that runs through their life and they pray and talk to him too.

 

I think you are misrepresenting faith vs. acquired wisdom through faith....

 

Call it what you will, but it's still just you dissecting the parts of the bible, making your own idiosyncratic interpretations and then with unwarranted arrogance you claim it to be wise and from god, without ANY evidence -- just like the muslims. mormons, and JWs do.

 

Maybe someday you'll realize you are nothing but a deluded charlatan.

 

...and also the type of information that is obtained and processed....i.e. what can science tell me with certainty about love and grace? Lol.

 

I could care less what science can say about love and grace This is just another bullshit strawman. I just want you to substantiate your assertion about the "love of Jesus" having any reference in reality and you have NOT done that.

 

--S.

[Guest confused idiot]

Alright, I don't want to interupt this debate here, and I'll shut up with my pointless venting soon, but I gotta ask something. Overcoming religious indoctrination ain't an overnight thing, and it ain't easy, obviously. But what are some effective ways to numb the mental pain that it all brings? Seriously, I have this shit on my mind 24/7, and even doing stuff doesn't keep my mind off of it as well as it used to. Honestly, religion as I know it makes me want to get drunk and get high, just to numb myself from it. And that's coming from a guy who has never had any desire whatsoever to drink or do drugs. And now, because of all this Jesus stuff, it makes me WANT to throw it all away and get wasted. Something is wrong with this picture.

[The-Captain]

Overcoming religious indoctrination ain't an overnight thing, and it ain't easy, obviously. But what are some effective ways to numb the mental pain that it all brings?

 

What worked for me was creating a new mental framework for viewing the world, one outside of all the specious claims of revealed religions. The challenges and fears of organized religion mean little to me now, I may not know all and never will, but I am secure enough in my knowledge of the world and where I ought to be heading to have peace of mind. One thing that helped a lot was simply broadening my intellectual horizons outside of Christianity's and seeing all the other perspectives out there helped give me peace of mind. Mind you this took me several years, all I can say is if you hang in there and just keep living your life it can change for the better. In the mean time, try not to do anything rash.

[Phanta]

You're perseverating. One way to learn to stop this at will is through practice - meditation. Every day. Five minutes. Practice letting go of the thoughts without judging them.

 

Also, making a decision not to listen to those sources that don't have your best interest in mind is an action that is empowering and toward health, which is good. In the long run, your body and mind will respond to evidence that you are taking care of it instead of working against it.

 

Also, exercise. Good diet. Nurture your nervous system and body.

 

Also, secular counseling from a highly skilled therapist who is open to various beliefs and supporting you finding your way, not necessarily the Christian way.

 

Phanta

[wonder]

confused said, "THERE IS NO GOD!!!!"

=========================================

 

ok you said it, good thats a start. i was just seeing how scared you really are. i see you will say it. its not so much of a leap now to believe it. the fact that you will say "THERE IS NO GOD" says a lot.

 

now you have to weigh the evidence. ok, you didnt turn into a maniac did you, by saying "THERE IS NO GOD"? fireballs didnt rain down on you after you said it right?. life is still pretty much the same after you uttered the words "THERE IS NO GOD" wouldnt you agree. nothing happened at all did it.

 

youve prayed and prayed and prayed....with no answers from "god." youre losing your mind and youve cried out to this 'god' with no response whatsoever. this god that doesnt respond to you at all wants you to become a weak wimpy punk who lets people walk all over you right? what sense does that make? now go back to the statement you uttered above. "THERE IS NO GOD" weigh the evidence to what is happening in your life now that youve uttered those words. not a damn thing happened did it?

[wonder]

I'm not afraid to call myself an atheist. But I'm not one. I'm not trying to knock it, but I just don't see things that way.

=======================================

im glad youre not afraid to call yourself an atheist good, thats a start too. that last statement is the reason you are suffering. its gonna take some work i see. man u are a stubborn one arent you?

 

 

\

[Shyone]

You're perseverating. One way to learn to stop this at will is through practice - meditation. Every day. Five minutes. Practice letting go of the thoughts without judging them.

 

Phanta

Phanta, you're brilliant! Perseverating! Of course!

 

I agree with your recommendations too, btw.

[Phanta]

I wasn't saying that any path that is not Christianity leads to debauchery. Far from it. But what I am saying is, I have that choice to make, beliefs aside. Try to be moral, or throw it all away.

 

What I am hearing is that middle ways are possible, but, for you, there is only dichotomy.

 

Phanta