Get Your Prayers Answered Now!!!

[pug]

 

I prayed for a parking space once before, too. And after driving around and around for five minutes, one finally appeared right where I wanted it! Funny, but a car was there just minutes before. Talk about your miracles! "God" sure does work in mysterious ways.

 

Umm...pug, I don't think you get it, but THAT post...was SARCASM. Your praying for a parking space was being mocked and ridiculed. Why are you ?

 

What a weirdo.

 

= double sarcasm IF that is possible. This entire thread i'm being mocked ~ so might as well play along.

 

 

I'm not good with verses ~ you have confused me with some one else. I'm not particularly fond of the hymns and songs either. And I confess I yawn when I pray. Eeeerie. My pastor says it could be a trauma I experienced when I was young. A falling experience. Immediately i recalled falling off a bicycle (as a back passenger) when i was very young. We prayed to exorcise this death spirit. Errrr... i stopped for a while but i still yawn. Oh, well...

 

 

You're kidding, right?

 

Anyway, so you had a demon of yawing, and prayer in Jesus' name didn't make it go away?

 

What was the "answer" here? Why do you think that is?

 

I don't know the answer... yet.

 

I prayed for something coincidental to happen and it did!

 

mwc

 

Ummm good for you... next time make sure it's profitable, beneficial then.

[mwc]

I prayed for something coincidental to happen and it did!

 

mwc

 

Ummm good for you... next time make sure it's profitable, beneficial then.

Should I pray for something more specific like a good parking spot at a crowded mall (twice in a row even) or is that just too much to hope for now that you've already gotten it?

 

I really need your guidance here Pug. I mean I only prayed for things that had substance and meaning, and they were never answered. If I had known to just pray for any old thing and those prayers would be answered, hell, I might still be a xian (probably not though since my last prayer had a shit load of substance and meaning and it was ignored).

 

mwc

[pug]

I prayed for something coincidental to happen and it did!

 

mwc

 

Ummm good for you... next time make sure it's profitable, beneficial then.

Should I pray for something more specific like a good parking spot at a crowded mall (twice in a row even) or is that just too much to hope for now that you've already gotten it?

 

I really need your guidance here Pug. I mean I only prayed for things that had substance and meaning, and they were never answered. If I had known to just pray for any old thing and those prayers would be answered, hell, I might still be a xian (probably not though since my last prayer had a shit load of substance and meaning and it was ignored).

 

mwc

 

 

ok... once again... mocking aside... pray for whatever you want! If it gets answered, i will say "praise the Lord" and you will say "gee, what a co-incidennce!" Quite a good win-win wager huh?

 

My prayer being answered is perhaps God mocking me ~ He gives me the little things to ridicule my small, shallow mind when i should have asked for some thing selfless, with more substance, even meaningful.

 

If your prayers were ignored when you were a xtian... i can tell you why... ha ha i wish, of course i can't. Isn't it better for you now? No need to pray, no need to hope for an answer which you know will never ever be answered.

[mwc]

ok... once again... mocking aside... pray for whatever you want! If it gets answered, i will say "praise the Lord" and you will say "gee, what a co-incidennce!" Quite a good win-win wager huh?

 

My prayer being answered is perhaps God mocking me ~ He gives me the little things to ridicule my small, shallow mind when i should have asked for some thing selfless, with more substance, even meaningful.

 

If your prayers were ignored when you were a xtian... i can tell you why... ha ha i wish, of course i can't. Isn't it better for you now? No need to pray, no need to hope for an answer which you know will never ever be answered.

Quite the answer there Pug.

 

Let me see if I can understand what exactly the situation is. You pray for, oh, crap and when you get said crap then you praise old "god" who's somehow "mocking" you. Now why a perfect being would "mock" anyone is beyond me...but hey, this is your version of "god" we're talking about here and if you want a mocking "god" then who am I to argue.

 

However, when same mocking "god" gets asked a downright serious prayer, and blows it off, then that's just fine with you. So how's the ratio so far? 10:1? 100:1? 1000000:1? I'd wager that the number of "crap" prayers that are "answered" compared to "real" prayers would be very high indeed. So does "god" just "mock" everyone all the time for putting their faith in him?

 

How can you say with a straight face that this is reasonable?

 

We've gone around on something like this before and it appears that nothing has soaked into your head at all. It appears that the only prayer that gets answered consistantly is the one that blinds you to reality.

 

I have no issues with not praying by the way. I never saw prayer the same way, it seems, as many people did. I saw it along the lines of "God helps those who help themselves." I prayed when I needed to pray or just to say "Hi." That was it. I'd tell "god" about my day and all. It's stupid since he should have already knew all that now shouldn't he? I'd also pray for intangible items (wisdom, etc.) and big prayers (other peoples health...I rarely prayed for myself except a few key items...none of which were ever made one iota better). So prayer was something that I would have never done for a trivial thing like a parking spot or in any way to "test" "god." To do so would have been the worst thing I could have done. Testing "god" is a flat out no-no. Even now that I know it's fake it bothers me to hear you say that.

 

mwc

[pug]

Let me see if I can understand what exactly the situation is. You pray for, oh, crap and when you get said crap then you praise old "god" who's somehow "mocking" you. Now why a perfect being would "mock" anyone is beyond me...but hey, this is your version of "god" we're talking about here and if you want a mocking "god" then who am I to argue.

Do you want to guide me to be a true Christian or ex-xtian? Let me explain: to my weak human mind, on the one hand, my unworthy prayer is answered, wow God is awesome. On the other hand, i figure hey, wait a minute, maybe He's just mocking me ~ a perfect plan to convince me not to mess around with a perfect being. Or many other reasons. Maybe, even to glorify His name by sharing this testimony with you.

 

However, when same mocking "god" gets asked a downright serious prayer, and blows it off, then that's just fine with you. So how's the ratio so far? 10:1? 100:1? 1000000:1? I'd wager that the number of "crap" prayers that are "answered" compared to "real" prayers would be very high indeed. So does "god" just "mock" everyone all the time for putting their faith in him?

Speaking for myself, I assure you, it is the opposite. The number of crap prayers answered is like 1:1,000,000. That's why it's so amazing. I've witnessed many real (not my frivolous ones) prayers answered... and i'm sure, in your "good" days, you have too?

 

How can you say with a straight face that this is reasonable?

Please do not put words in my mouth! It's not, never reasonable ~ it just happened. What do you want me to do? Un-pray? I'm a weak feeble-minded sinner, if He answers, why i'm blessed. You want me to question God's will? I get my fair share of tribulations too you know...

 

We've gone around on something like this before and it appears that nothing has soaked into your head at all. It appears that the only prayer that gets answered consistantly is the one that blinds you to reality.

AND, pray, what guidance or advice do you wish to offer? I'm all ears.

 

I have no issues with not praying by the way. I never saw prayer the same way, it seems, as many people did. I saw it along the lines of "God helps those who help themselves." I prayed when I needed to pray or just to say "Hi." That was it. I'd tell "god" about my day and all.

Same with me... except for some desperate, eccentric, unreasonable moments.

 

It's stupid since he should have already knew all that now shouldn't he?

He already knows but He wishes to hear you saying it. Not too much to ask is it?

 

I'd also pray for intangible items (wisdom, etc.) and big prayers (other peoples health...I rarely prayed for myself except a few key items...none of which were ever made one iota better).

Yeah, me too, bless others and please bless me too so that i can help others. If others are helped by me then i'm doubly blessed.

 

So prayer was something that I would have never done for a trivial thing like a parking spot or in any way to "test" "god." To do so would have been the worst thing I could have done. Testing "god" is a flat out no-no. Even now that I know it's fake it bothers me to hear you say that.

Well, trivial or not, it's up to God. Maybe, just once, He granted me this prayer because i was going to buy a book for a Christian brother? Maybe not. And maybe "test" is not appropriate. Maybe should use "proof" of my God. Hmmm... not quite right either. Hey, why should it bother you? You don't believe in God. And i don't mean to be rude, sarcastic, cold or arrogant. Just stating a fact.

[mwc]

Do you want to guide me to be a true Christian or ex-xtian? Let me explain: to my weak human mind, on the one hand, my unworthy prayer is answered, wow God is awesome. On the other hand, i figure hey, wait a minute, maybe He's just mocking me ~ a perfect plan to convince me not to mess around with a perfect being. Or many other reasons. Maybe, even to glorify His name by sharing this testimony with you.

I'm not sure what guidance you are referring to...I asked for your guidance and not the other way around. However, if you want my guidance then it will surely be away from the myth known as "Christianity."

 

Did you ever consider that none of your answers were correct? Did you ever consider that in many, if not all, of the cases it was purely coincidence? You might have but it's funner to attribute these things to "god" since it makes him "real." Sadly there is no way to make you see this. You pray for a parking spot. A parking spot opens up. Miracle! A parking spot doesn't open up? Oh well. "God's" will and/or prayer forgotten. The running tally counts the "hits" far more than the "misses."

 

I hate to tell you but you're not having much success in the "glorification" category either. Perhaps some of your fellow xians will get all excited over the parking lot miracles but you're going to have to do a bit better than that here.

 

Speaking for myself, I assure you, it is the opposite. The number of crap prayers answered is like 1:1,000,000. That's why it's so amazing. I've witnessed many real (not my frivolous ones) prayers answered... and i'm sure, in your "good" days, you have too?

Why is it that whenever I talk with a xian they love to point out all the fabulous things "god" has done for them but when I was a xian I had the exact opposite experience? Not only that but the xians I hung with (and in 30+ years I can assure that was quite a few) these "miracles" were more like urban legends...you know...they happened "to a friend of a friend" kind of thing. We all heard and read of these fabulous things and had that "friend" it happened to (hell my grandfather claimed to have had a vision of Jesus Christ himself and my mother was in a car accident and heard freeking angels among other things that have happened) but yet no miracle for us. The ones that, in the end, needed it the most. Why "prove" yourself to your most loyal but ignore the one who's about to drop off? Makes no sense considering what's written in that mighty book.

 

Back on topic though. Was there any way whatsoever that the prayers you had "answered" could have had the same outcome in a non-supernatural way? If the answer is "yes" then you must consider that to be the answer first. Once you've eliminated all possible natural explanations can you even reasonably begin to attribute anything to a god. This is why, despite how much I love my family, the circumstances surrounding their miracles allow them to be explained away (trauma induced hallucinations from accidents for one). I know my grandparents both died thinking they were off to something better. I'd love it to be true but the facts show otherwise and to a very strong degree.

 

Please do not put words in my mouth! It's not, never reasonable ~ it just happened. What do you want me to do? Un-pray? I'm a weak feeble-minded sinner, if He answers, why i'm blessed. You want me to question God's will? I get my fair share of tribulations too you know...

I did not think that I was putting words into your mouth. I'm sorry if you think I did.

 

I'm sure you do have your share of problems. Sadly you think they are to teach you a lesson. What is that lesson? How should you know, right? Hindsight will reveal the answer I'm sure. I don't get taught "lessons" by "god" but yet I have the ability to learn in hindsight as well. What is the lesson? Whatever I decide it is after the fact. How convenient is that?

 

AND, pray, what guidance or advice do you wish to offer? I'm all ears.

Ouch. You wound me with your sarcasm.

 

What advice would I give? Oh, I don't know. Since you asked I guess I should at least toss something your way. So my advice would be to think. Think about everything. Don't just limit yourself to one point of view...get them all. Do this for everything you can but especially for those things that are most important in life. Right now, it seems that a god is quite important to you. What do you really know about this god you worship? What are it's origins? Do you know? You think it's an off-shoot of Judaism? Is it? Have you researched Judaism? Have you spoke to a Rabbi? Do you fully understand why they don't believe that jesus is "god" or that xianity is an off-shoot of their religion? How can that be? Could it be that xianity hijacked, and bastardized, their religion? More xians believe that things like Mormonism is a bastardization of xianity. Why can this be considered a hijacking but xianity to Judaism is not? Do you know any of the traditions of the Jews and the mindset of those ancients Jews in regard to their religion? I doubt it. You have the general ideas but can't see that xianity came along, hijacked their religion, called them idiots for not understanding their own religion and went on its merry way proclaiming truth all the while ignoring the supposed "roots" of their own religion. So research it. Think about it. Don't just pay it lip service but really open your mind and accept the knowledge that can be had. At the very least drop by a site like http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org and really see why jesus is not the man you're looking for and why the Jews have known this all along. At the very least you'll learn something about the Jewish faith.

 

He already knows but He wishes to hear you saying it. Not too much to ask is it?

I wish I knew why whenever I read/hear someone say something like this I immediately jump to the worst Star Trek movie of all and get "What does god need with a space ship?" What does "god" need with prayer? What does "god" need with anything that you have to offer? That this entire world has to offer? A true "god" would want/need nothing and would likely have nothing to do with us. We have nothing to offer a god. If you say the answer is anything at all then you are wrong. Any "god" that would want/need anything from us would make itself known to all of us so that it could get that very thing it wanted/needed. It wouldn't sneak around in the shadows essentially "hoping" that we offer up what it wanted. That makes absolutely no sense at all. Do you operate that way? Does anyone operate that way? When we want/need something we make it known to the people we want it from so that we can get it. If we don't then we usually end up disappointed because those people probably aren't going to give us what we want. When you want something for xmas do you tell someone (or at least "hint" extremely enough so they "get it?"). If so then you're on up on "god." "God" is going to be sorely disappointed that most people didn't get his "hints." For a perfect being that has to be just about the least perfect method of doing this task that I can think of. As for as that asking to much? No...but only if he talks to me directly first.

 

Well, trivial or not, it's up to God. Maybe, just once, He granted me this prayer because i was going to buy a book for a Christian brother? Maybe not. And maybe "test" is not appropriate. Maybe should use "proof" of my God. Hmmm... not quite right either. Hey, why should it bother you? You don't believe in God. And i don't mean to be rude, sarcastic, cold or arrogant. Just stating a fact.

Tread lightly my friend, Pug. I do believe in God(s). Just not your version. As I've said elsewhere I simply cannot define my version of god (or gods or whatever). I don't even try. Maybe this god is interested in us and maybe he can do all sorts of nifty shit but I've seen no evidence and I haven't been contacted in any way so it really doesn't matter. So I like the idea of something "greater" than me since I don't have all the answers and I think maybe this god might have some I don't but it still doesn't matter. It's irrational to believe in any god and yet I do but I sure don't rework my life or experiences around some unproven "idea" that I have about god. If this god does something for me at some point in my life or when I die then so much the better but I'm not counting on it. The best I can think to tell you about my idea of god is that what would I do if I were a god? I can tell you I wouldn't dick around with a tiny little planet off in some boring corner of the universe since that makes no sense at all. I'd do something that was somewhat challenging to test my own limitations (without testing your limits how could you ever truly know if you're all-knowing, all-powerful, etc.). I would think that any "god" as you would have him would be bored silly and worship would be the last thing you'd want to try to "stimulate" your existance. Anyhow, you see, not having your god, does not mean not having any god. You fail that bit of understanding. You fail when you can't see past your own concept of what is and what is not "god." You have a book. So what? That's all you have. I have nothing more than what I think. So what? That's all I have. Since neither can be shown to be more valid than the other we're at a stalemate. I admit to the limitations of my beliefs however, how about you?

 

mwc

[pug]

mwc,

 

Thanks for your guidance. I'll read the Jew website later. I'm afraid (for now) I can't reply/comment on all your advice... maybe later. But for now..

 

Tread lightly my friend, Pug. I do believe in God(s). Just not your version.

Oh, you do believe in God(s). OK. My version of God? Christian version 1.0 ~ there are variations, denominations, but generally trinity, resurrection, you know...

 

As I've said elsewhere I simply cannot define my version of god (or gods or whatever). I don't even try. Maybe this god is interested in us and maybe he can do all sorts of nifty shit but I've seen no evidence and I haven't been contacted in any way so it really doesn't matter.

He's done some nifty shit for me (not just the parking , rain stuff) so i'm still His.

 

So I like the idea of something "greater" than me since I don't have all the answers and I think maybe this god might have some I don't but it still doesn't matter. It's irrational to believe in any god and yet I do but I sure don't rework my life or experiences around some unproven "idea" that I have about god. If this god does something for me at some point in my life or when I die then so much the better but I'm not counting on it.

Hold that "irrational" thought ~ it may save you one day.

 

The best I can think to tell you about my idea of god is that what would I do if I were a god? I can tell you I wouldn't dick around with a tiny little planet off in some boring corner of the universe since that makes no sense at all.

Ummm... but you are not God. Maybe He is so bored He finds it exciting to shock an insignificant human (me) that He is real.

 

I'd do something that was somewhat challenging to test my own limitations (without testing your limits how could you ever truly know if you're all-knowing, all-powerful, etc.).

Don't be silly. As God, you do nifty shit already. Why not show an unbelieving skeptic some real nifty shit, then watch him convince another un-believer to believe in God. Now thaaat would be real power! Not to mention fun!!!!

 

I would think that any "god" as you would have him would be bored silly and worship would be the last thing you'd want to try to "stimulate" your existance.

Peeeeeeeeeeeet wrong! Quite fun to see an unsuspecting un-believer become a follower, then watch him do acrobatics to convert another. Woo hoo stimulating power.

 

Anyhow, you see, not having your god, does not mean not having any god. You fail that bit of understanding. You fail when you can't see past your own concept of what is and what is not "god."

I fail to understand? I fail to make you understand. That I fail.

 

You have a book. So what? That's all you have.

It's a manual; guide book. It does not stop there. I pray, remember? He speaks to me, remember? He is, even now, speaking to me, through you! Errr... not kidding.

 

I have nothing more than what I think. So what? That's all I have. Since neither can be shown to be more valid than the other we're at a stalemate. I admit to the limitations of my beliefs however, how about you?

You have been valuable, priceless to me. Stalemate it is. Your version is valid to you and mine to me. But i value your comments/input ~ thanks for being so gracious and helpful. And I bid you a merry Christmas ~ in the commercial sense, of course.

[Open_Minded]

Hello Pug...

 

I've been tracking this thread for some time now and I've a question.

 

You seem to be really going through some questioning... what is the biggest fear you have?

 

I mean if you were to let go of this god that you, yourself, have admitted "testing" on a regular basis, what do you think would happen?

 

Just wondering Pug, I won't attack you for your answer.

[Mythra]

No need to feel sorry for me man. I feel blessed.

 

Well, now we have something in common.

 

I feel blessed also.

 

And thankful.

 

To myself.

 

For having the courage (and, believe me, it took courage - cause I was just as brainwashed as you)..

 

To say "to hell with religion"

[mwc]

Thanks for your guidance. I'll read the Jew website later. I'm afraid (for now) I can't reply/comment on all your advice... maybe later. But for now..

 

Oh, you do believe in God(s). OK. My version of God? Christian version 1.0 ~ there are variations, denominations, but generally trinity, resurrection, you know...

It's a pretty decent website. Remember to give it a really good read since, after all, Judaism is the roots of xianity so it's important to know those roots.

 

There are other websites and books that you can read so that you can understand that you're not anywhere near "Christian version 1.0" and no one has been for around 2000 years. That can wait though (and others have compiled better lists of these sites than what I possess) it's enough to tell you that your flavor of xianity is really quite new in the overall scheme of things.

 

Hold that "irrational" thought ~ it may save you one day.

Save me? From what? Hell? Your version of hell? To assert it as fact seems to imply that you can prove it. Can you? How does it compare with the Jewish version (your "roots")?

 

Ummm... but you are not God. Maybe He is so bored He finds it exciting to shock an insignificant human (me) that He is real.

Can you prove that I'm not "god?" I could work a miracle to prove it to you but I want blind faith and so I won't. Believe in me anyway.

 

Don't be silly. As God, you do nifty shit already. Why not show an unbelieving skeptic some real nifty shit, then watch him convince another un-believer to believe in God. Now thaaat would be real power! Not to mention fun!!!!

 

Peeeeeeeeeeeet wrong! Quite fun to see an unsuspecting un-believer become a follower, then watch him do acrobatics to convert another. Woo hoo stimulating power.

So you're all about the conversion? To what end? What does it matter if one single person converts to your version of religion? That's just one more person that is now following the wrong "god." That's quite a cruel thing you enjoy doing...leading others away from the right path.

 

I fail to understand? I fail to make you understand. That I fail.

 

It's a manual; guide book. It does not stop there. I pray, remember? He speaks to me, remember? He is, even now, speaking to me, through you! Errr... not kidding.

 

You've failed to make me understand what? That your version of "god" is the one and only possible version of "god?" Your "evidence" (and I use the term loosely) consists of petty "miracles" and a book. The book has two versions of the same "god" in the OT and NT and contains so many errors, and just huge problems in general, that it's not a trust worthy source. If the bible was a text book in schools it would be removed from classrooms for being so poorly done.

 

Sadly, the second sentence above is the worst one. It effectively removes me from my own conversation. This type of thought removes pretty much all humans from everything and turns us into little puppet like creatures. If "god" is "using" me to speak to you then I'm not doing anything at all. What a dim view of things. However, let's say "god" is working through me at this very moment (we'll assume I'm not god for now). "God" is using me to tell you something very important. Read what I've said in the message (in all my messages). It says you don't know the true god (or gods). It says that you don't know the roots of your own religion. It says that you are leading people astray. It says that your beliefs, in general, are just plain wrong since they're based on a lie. Is "god" still speaking through me? According to you I'd guess the answer is "Not when you say that bad stuff." If "god" is truly working through me you refuse to hear what "god" has to say.

 

mwc

[Poonis]

Does anyone else find it interesting that there is a necessity of prayer in the first place?

[mwc]

Does anyone else find it interesting that there is a necessity of prayer in the first place?

Entirely illogical. If it only gets answered "yes" if it's "god's" will then any prayer at all is irrelevant. If "god" was going to do it anyway then your prayer meant nothing and is more of an exercise to determine if your will aligns with "god's" on that particular item. It's like a divine slot machine. People get all excited when a prayer "pays off" no matter how small the reward and how much they've actually lost to get it.

 

Of course it's really nothing more than a form of meditation and self-reinforcement (ie. the slot machine) as "god" does not exist.

 

mwc

[pug]

mwc

 

So you're all about the conversion? To what end? What does it matter if one single person converts to your version of religion? That's just one more person that is now following the wrong "god." That's quite a cruel thing you enjoy doing...leading others away from the right path.

And what, according to you, is the right path? Well, your version of path anyway.

 

"God" is using me to tell you something very important. Read what I've said in the message (in all my messages). It says you don't know the true god (or gods). It says that you don't know the roots of your own religion. It says that you are leading people astray. It says that your beliefs, in general, are just plain wrong since they're based on a lie. Is "god" still speaking through me? According to you I'd guess the answer is "Not when you say that bad stuff." If "god" is truly working through me you refuse to hear what "god" has to say.

Yes, my version of God is certainly speaking through you. But, my version is not the true god, so... even if i know the roots of my version of the religion, it's still wrong because i can't prove it. It says i'm leading people astray (but of course not including the people here). It says i need to do more homework... but it is futile anyway because you, mwc, is actually the true god?

 

Lastly, i do not enjoy converting people ~ which is... also cruel?

[pug]

mwc,

Did you ever consider that none of your answers were correct? Did you ever consider that in many, if not all, of the cases it was purely coincidence? You might have but it's funner to attribute these things to "god" since it makes him "real." Sadly there is no way to make you see this. You pray for a parking spot. A parking spot opens up. Miracle! A parking spot doesn't open up? Oh well. "God's" will and/or prayer forgotten. The running tally counts the "hits" far more than the "misses."

Did you ever consider you are not the dude who judges what/which prayer is or not correct? If it is coincidental, so be it. Why/what does it matter so greatly to you to prove my version of God is unreal? What are terrified of? My version of non-existent hell?

 

I hate to tell you but you're not having much success in the "glorification" category either. Perhaps some of your fellow xians will get all excited over the parking lot miracles but you're going to have to do a bit better than that here.

My fellow xtians have even more miraculous events to relate! I put it all down to co-incidences. Those that actually happen to me by co-incidence i dare believe. Hey, i do not keep score in the glorification category or any other category. It's a personal relationship with my version of God ~ so no need to get excited, ok?

 

Does anyone else find it interesting that there is a necessity of prayer in the first place?

Entirely illogical. If it only gets answered "yes" if it's "god's" will then any prayer at all is irrelevant. If "god" was going to do it anyway then your prayer meant nothing and is more of an exercise to determine if your will aligns with "god's" on that particular item. It's like a divine slot machine. People get all excited when a prayer "pays off" no matter how small the reward and how much they've actually lost to get it.

 

Of course it's really nothing more than a form of meditation and self-reinforcement (ie. the slot machine) as "god" does not exist.

 

Well, you are absolutely right. I do not get exactly excited if co-incidentally the prayer aligns with my version of God's will or He is going to answer it anyway. I just go, oh wow amazing. Now i must pray for the un-believers to know Him, that He (well, my version) exists. But being logical humans they need scientific, real proof... so i better not lead them astray or should i anyway? Hmmmm... hey mwc, you the god dude... what say you!

[pug]

Hello Pug...

 

I've been tracking this thread for some time now and I've a question.

 

You seem to be really going through some questioning... what is the biggest fear you have?

 

I mean if you were to let go of this god that you, yourself, have admitted "testing" on a regular basis, what do you think would happen?

 

Just wondering Pug, I won't attack you for your answer.

 

Dear Open Minded,

 

Now that i'm slowly befriending my version of God, i seem to have no fear. Any attacks by the so-called satan, pray in the name of Jesus, and he's history... non-believers, please do not try this. But i believe this version of my God who has His roots in the Jewish religion which has its roots in ... ah, ask my God that.

 

If i let go of this version of my God, He'll just come looking for me. Some ridiculous thing about Him loving me ~ my understanding of my version of God anyway.

 

You see, i used to pray/worship some other deities ~ monkey god, heaven god and earth god ~ and when i converted, these deities/god spirits came after me with a vengeance (if you believe in spirits that is). Jesus Christ saved me from them, but my God it was a horrific, violent struggle!! My pastors had to call the cops! Yeah, like in da movies, i was choking the pastor! And i was hospitalised (in solidary confinement, in the mental ward) for 3 days. My church had to pray for me for days. Miraculously i did not get committed to the loony bin (could have!). So here i am... telling you gentle folks about my ordeal. it wasn't fun.

 

Oooops co-incidence again? yeah, whatever

 

Open Minded, i do sound a little pissed don't i? Apologies. Must pray for humility.

[Cerise]

Jesus Christ saved me from them, but my God it was a horrific, violent struggle!! My pastors had to call the cops! Yeah, like in da movies, i was choking the pastor! And i was hospitalised (in solidary confinement, in the mental ward) for 3 days. My church had to pray for me for days. Miraculously i did not get committed to the loony bin (could have!). So here i am... telling you gentle folks about my ordeal. it wasn't fun.

 

 

Methinks that pug =

[SkepticOfBible]

Pug,

 

Muslims and Hindu pray to Allah/Hindu Gods and their "prayers" get answered too.

 

How do you explain this phenomanon?

 

Pritish

[pug]

Pug,

 

Muslims and Hindu pray to Allah/Hindu Gods and their "prayers" get answered too.

 

How do you explain this phenomanon?

 

Pritish

 

Of course they do. So no explaination needed. AND let's not get into the "true" god thang.

 

Jesus Christ saved me from them, but my God it was a horrific, violent struggle!! My pastors had to call the cops! Yeah, like in da movies, i was choking the pastor! And i was hospitalised (in solidary confinement, in the mental ward) for 3 days. My church had to pray for me for days. Miraculously i did not get committed to the loony bin (could have!). So here i am... telling you gentle folks about my ordeal. it wasn't fun.

 

 

Methinks that pug =

 

 

yeah was now a little less so

 

[mwc]

And what, according to you, is the right path? Well, your version of path anyway.

Ahhh...a good question indeed. You claim to know the right path via your book. I claim another path is correct. Which of us is right? Maybe neither but probably not both. So the question remains...which is the right path?

 

Yes, my version of God is certainly speaking through you. But, my version is not the true god, so... even if i know the roots of my version of the religion, it's still wrong because i can't prove it. It says i'm leading people astray (but of course not including the people here). It says i need to do more homework... but it is futile anyway because you, mwc, is actually the true god?

Knowing the roots of your religion is not only for proof it is for knowledge. To understand where you came from. The problem is those who still practice the "old" ways think that you have it wrong. Why would that be? How do you know you've gotten it right if you have no idea what the original idea of right is? Perhaps converting to Judaism to be even closer to the original version is something that should really be considered?

 

Lastly, i do not enjoy converting people ~ which is... also cruel?

Then why tell anyone of your god at all?

 

mwc

[pug]

And what, according to you, is the right path? Well, your version of path anyway.

Ahhh...a good question indeed. You claim to know the right path via your book. I claim another path is correct. Which of us is right? Maybe neither but probably not both. So the question remains...which is the right path?

I do not, did not claim any thing!!! Certainly not the right or correct path!!! Hallloooo... just sharing with you my path... My God says take this path... walk it and sees where it takes you.

 

Yes, my version of God is certainly speaking through you. But, my version is not the true god, so... even if i know the roots of my version of the religion, it's still wrong because i can't prove it. It says i'm leading people astray (but of course not including the people here). It says i need to do more homework... but it is futile anyway because you, mwc, is actually the true god?

Knowing the roots of your religion is not only for proof it is for knowledge. To understand where you came from. The problem is those who still practice the "old" ways think that you have it wrong. Why would that be? How do you know you've gotten it right if you have no idea what the original idea of right is? Perhaps converting to Judaism to be even closer to the original version is something that should really be considered?

I'll pray for an answer. i'll consider converting to Judaism. Islam? la la la ummm...

 

Lastly, i do not enjoy converting people ~ which is... also cruel?

Then why tell anyone of your god at all?

 

Just as you are telling me there's no such God. I'll let my version of God... ....

[pug]

mwc,

Knowing the roots of your religion is not only for proof it is for knowledge. To understand where you came from. The problem is those who still practice the "old" ways think that you have it wrong. Why would that be? How do you know you've gotten it right if you have no idea what the original idea of right is?

 

...for knowledge recorded by man. Well, a long time ago, in a faraway galaxy... i'm afraid i'm too far gone, i'm now believing in a supernatural God who is beyond man's "right" words or got it right or not.

 

Just curious... you are saying that if i have an idea what/where the original idea of right is/came from i will get it right? Absolutely?

[mwc]

Did you ever consider you are not the dude who judges what/which prayer is or not correct? If it is coincidental, so be it. Why/what does it matter so greatly to you to prove my version of God is unreal? What are terrified of? My version of non-existent hell?

How can you know that I am not the dude who judges these things? Perhaps I am? Perhaps I am the "Bruce" that Bruce Almighty was based on? Then again maybe I'm not.

 

As for being terrified, well, I think you don't quite know the definition of the word. Hell is no more real than your "god." I am "terrified" that people walk around with the crutch of religion. It causes people who need real help to not seek it out. It blinds them to real problems and "outsources" responsibility to a non-existant entity. It's the story of the Good Samaritan. Here we have the lowest of the low helping when everyone else just walked on by. Xians think so highly of themselves that they just walk on by. The lowly non-xians have more compassion since they understand that they can't "oursource." I am by no means an example of this but I can tell you that I certainly appreciate life (not just mine but in general) far more now that when I was a xian. With only one shot at life being certain it suddenly becomes quite precious. So I have no fear of a mythical afterlife but a fear of a hellish this life.

 

My fellow xtians have even more miraculous events to relate! I put it all down to co-incidences. Those that actually happen to me by co-incidence i dare believe. Hey, i do not keep score in the glorification category or any other category. It's a personal relationship with my version of God ~ so no need to get excited, ok?

I too have witnessed truly miraculous coincidences. Even though they were amazing it still does not elevate them to supernatural status. I don't recall where I saw it but I think it was relation to super-string theory (someone can correct me if I'm too far off). Anyhow, I saw that there was a chance, with this theory, that someone could be walking down the street, disappear, appear on Mars, disappear and reappear back on Earth where they started without missing a beat. This would, without this theory, be something that would easily qualify as a miracle. It would have to as it is supernatural...except the theory reduces it to the natural albeit unprobable (the odds of it happening even once is greater than the projected age of the universe as a whole so it's right around impossible for it to happen...but it could). So think of all the little things that might appear miraculous, along these same amazing lines, but aren't miracles since they really are totally natural. Things simply "winking" out of existance is something that could be totally natural with no "god" required at all.

 

As for your personal relationship with "god." Ok. Throw out all your bibles and all related materials. Better yet move to a non-xian country (try to get one that's downright hostile towards xianity) and, this is the hard part, figure out how to remove any trace of your "god" from your mind. Once you do that write a note to yourself to report back who your "god" is in a few years. I'm gonna say it's not the one you have now. You have a relationship with a book, some other believers and maybe miscellaneous items...the one thing you don't have is a relationship with a deity.

 

Well, you are absolutely right. I do not get exactly excited if co-incidentally the prayer aligns with my version of God's will or He is going to answer it anyway. I just go, oh wow amazing. Now i must pray for the un-believers to know Him, that He (well, my version) exists. But being logical humans they need scientific, real proof... so i better not lead them astray or should i anyway? Hmmmm... hey mwc, you the god dude... what say you!

Why would you pray for non-believers to know "Him?" You say you're not into conversions but here you are. You say that it's pretty much coincidence but you pray for conversions as if it's not coincidence. You seem to alter your answers based on which point you're trying to make. The first thing you need to establish is that your way is the way. No xian in history has even come close. For something so basic and absolute it sure is impossible to demonstrate. Do you operate the rest of your life the same way? I doubt it. People pay more attention to the new car or TV they want to buy then the "god" they follow. It's really a shame. Do you simply pray when you need medical attention (like Christian Scientists) or do you seek out a doctor? Some people do both but when it comes down to it most people go to a doctor since they have the track record (despite a lot of failures). People trust the doctors first. Only when doctors fail, or appear to be failing, do they move onto "god." If things go badly they blame the doctors and absolve "god." When things go well they praise "god" and overlook/diminish the doctors. The doctors have the track record so they bear the burden. Since "god" has such a lousy record people excuse "god." It's almost automatic...a reflex. It reveals the truth about "god" and "faith" in so many ways.

 

So to answer as to what to do. If you can show your "god" to be the God then by all means do it. If you can satisfy whatever it is that each person needs to believe in your "god" then provide it. You will be the first person ever to do such a thing (not even your "god" has pulled it off). I've read many of your posts and, to date, I can say you haven't brought anything new to the table around here. I'd personally love to see something new but you've got the same limited resource as all others in your position, and one I believed whole-heartedly and studied nearly every day for years, so I won't hold my breath.

 

I do not, did not claim any thing!!! Certainly not the right or correct path!!! Hallloooo... just sharing with you my path... My God says take this path... walk it and sees where it takes you.

I'm very sorry...my bad. I simply assumed that your "god" would lead you on the "right" path. I can see now that your "god" might lead you down the "wrong" path just the same. That's got to be at least a little bit frightening not knowing if your "god" is taking you down the "right" path or not.

 

Just curious... you are saying that if i have an idea what/where the original idea of right is/came from i will get it right? Absolutely?

I'm saying that if Christianity arose from Judaism then why not choose Judaism? It's open to all and it's closer to the source. Since you don't seem interested in converting then the natural question arises is why don't all the Jews become xian? If one is the extension of the other it seems like the logical thing to do but it does not happen. Some research (and that website I mentioned) might help in that understanding. You can't both be right (despite what xians try so desparately to tell people). Any real research will show you that Christianity is simply rebranded Mithraism (who used to be known as Christians by the way) with a few twists and Judaism is the "established" means it used to achieve some credibility (and not all xians wanted the OT included because they saw two different religions/"gods"). To see the world, as much as possible, as a Jew of those days (even these days) would be to understand why you're following a pagan "god" and not the "god" of the Jews as you, and all xians, so naively believe.

 

mwc

[pug]

mwc,

You have a relationship with a book, some other believers and maybe miscellaneous items...the one thing you don't have is a relationship with a deity.

 

On whose authority are you telling me this? Bruce?

 

Xians think so highly of themselves that they just walk on by. The lowly non-xians have more compassion since they understand that they can't "oursource."

No high, no low. Don't generalise. Some xtians are like this, some aren't. Non-xtians the same.

 

And non-xtians have more compassion? Ah? Oh forgot you are contributing knowledge... bringing some new facts to the table. Ok, gotcha.

[pug]

why don't all the Jews become xian?

...and why don't all xtians become jews?

[mwc]

On whose authority are you telling me this? Bruce?

My very own authority in fact.

 

Unless I'm mistaken and bible-god came to you long before you had even heard of the bible or its "god." I don't think you're telling me this so the bible came first. You read it (heard testimonies from others falls into this arena) and then came the "personal" relationship. It's the only way it ever happens no matter the religion. Knowledge of the religion is first (in whatever form...even "background" noise while you went about your daily business for however many years) then all the "great" and "miraculous" things the religion offers comes after. Hindsight is then used to perhaps "see" (meaning reinterpret) past events to fit this new world view.

 

No high, no low. Don't generalise. Some xtians are like this, some aren't. Non-xtians the same.

I can't generalize? Okay then. Point retracted.

 

And non-xtians have more compassion? Ah? Oh forgot you are contributing knowledge... bringing some new facts to the table. Ok, gotcha.

This is where you draw the wrong conclusion. Xians are, as a whole (damn, I'm generalizing again), no better or worse than anyone else (based on nothing more than simple observation)...BUT they should be better. They have the "spirit" within in them "helping" them along their way (I know the spirit frequents this site so maybe he can elaborate). If the claim is this helping hand improves you some way and yet you are statistically the same then what's the point of making the claim? It's all explained any number of ways all of which are nothing more than cop-outs. Yet another biblical/xian claim that doesn't hold up to the simplest of observational tests. Perfect love should flow through you and yet it appears that you're a rather cold guy. Passing the compassion you should possess and offer onto a non-existant "god" so that he can take care of it. It's a convenient way to avoid having to truly give a damn. Look at most any of the "real" xians that visit here or frequent any of their sites and you'll see. Like everyone else they "love' the shit out of you but when it's crunch time it's every man for themself. Truly a hypocritical bunch. Non-believers (more than just non-xians but those who don't claim a hard and fast code) can't be held to this same standard so the comparison is irrelevant anyway.

 

mwc