Get Your Prayers Answered Now!!!

[pug]

What about the slaying in spirit? Do you think other gods can do it, on a regular basis? To me it's extraordinary, as you know i'm in the mysterious East, i've witnessed super human episodes when mediums are taken over by spirits ~ fire walking, speaking for the dead, body piercing and so forth.

 

But these are mediums, so no big deal. In church, it's just ordinary folks. A pastor prays and they faint (fall) right away. Sometimes they scream (getting the evil spirits out?), cry or vomit. But the laughing, the first time i've witnessed it ~ well, up till today.

While all the things you describe are quite amazing I'm sure there is a rational explanation for them since these types of things, as you point out, happen with or with bible god being involved. If this was unique only to xianity you would have some major evidence but since these things happen outside xianity they must have a reasonable explanation. Voodoo and even self-help events share these types of amazing displays and yet I don't think you'd really attibute those things to some supernatural force. Research into some of these things, like body piercing, have already given rational explanations (sorry, I don't have any links handy).

 

mwc

 

It's unique... lots of christian churches disagree with it. For example:

 

Renown Occult expert, Kurt Koch has studied the occult for years and this particular phenomena of being slain in the spirit, speaking in tongues, holy laughter,etc., he says, is one of the most dangerous weapons the devil is using against the Christian today!

 

http://gospelcenterchurch.org/slaininspirit.html

 

But a few do think it is a gift... hang on, let me go dig it out.

[pug]

There is little doubt to the discerning that many Christians today are being exposed to seducing spirits and Christianized New Age philosophies on an unprecedented scale. Whether much "slain" activity occurs because of lack of knowledge, fakery, hypnotic suggestion or evil spirits, Biblical precedent for "falling behavior" does exist. However, the genuine "slain in the Spirit" experience, as portrayed in Scripture, often differs radically from the "falling behavior" associated with past and present religious services. Christians must test the spirits and observe both the fruit of the spiritual leader and his ministry. Members of the body must always remember to seek Jesus Christ himself, not his signs or gifts. Following after people whose ministries display great supernatural power, whether they are genuine servants of God or servants of evil spirits, can lead to spiritual shipwreck.

 

http://www.searchingtogether.com/articles/oconner/slain.htm

 

interesting...?

[pug]

Wimber writes. 'So I feel no obligation to try to explain it. It's just phenomena. It's just people responding to God.'"

 

http://www.bible.ca/tongues-defend-manifestions.htm

[pug]

Thanks for your illumination. Of course i do know the real meaning and purpose of prayer. Like you said, God just is. Who are we to study Him!? Or say He has favourites. As you know, sometimes we humans (like me), call it playful, unreasonable, demanding... simply can't resist being a little selfish and ask for ... a parking space? We cast our burdens on Him. Both big and small.

 

I'm so sick of reading your petty little prayer request, hmmm...who does god love more? Pug or the little defenseless child begging for him right now while locked in closet getting ready to be pulled out and raped and beaten. She's in there screaming and begging for god but curiously he's not there. We know where god is, making sure that his precious Pug has a parking space or a project is done...hallejfuckinlluah!! Oh, but god doesn't play favorites...

 

I don't see where god has received any glory points, I only see a man bragging at how special he is too god because he THINKS that his petty and benign prayer requests are answered.

 

Yeppers... sorry, will shut the fook up now. Thanks for reminding me to be humble and not gloat... ahhhh rambling. i hear ya.

[Open_Minded]

I'm not following you here, pug... what have you been trying to "skirt around"?

The supernatural, un-explainable working of God ~ quite above human reasoning. So far i do not wish to reveal those. I have witnessed an incident when all my church's youth were touched by God (assisted/called upon by a pastor) and they started falling down giggling and laughing while we adult hardened ones just watched. Well, one or two of the adults did eventually succumbed. Now what was that? Some of them said they felt so loved by God. Some commented God was healing their past hurts.

 

Pug - a few thoughts here.

 

1st I'm not involved in a fundamentalist church and I never have been. So I can't speak to the specific event. But I can tell you about 2 young girls I know who are involved in a fundamentalist sect of Christianity.

 

These girls are very vulnerable, very very vulnerable. They both come from dysfunctional families and they are both convinced that they are nothing without this church. The church has them believing that demons are active in their lives. They process even the most simple thoughts through the lens of whether a demon is giving them the thought or God. Because of this they are very dependent upon the pastor of the church that they go to. They see everything through his eyes, as if he were a little god. So they are extremely suggestive to his influences.

 

Do not think, for one second, that just a local pastor cannot control children the way you are talking about - DON'T EVER THINK THAT. I'm seeing it happen to two very intelligent and bright children. It is the very reason I've stayed around this board as long as I have. I want to know what these two girls are dealing with. BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW A SIMPLE LITTLE PASTOR FROM THE MIDDLE OF NOWHERE CAN HAVE THIS KIND OF INFLUENCE. It makes me quite angry, actually.

 

2ndly - about "supernatural" events. I have been using disciplined meditation now for 30 years. In any culture when one practices meditation in a disciplined way things happen that other people consider "supernatural". They are not supernatural occurances. They are the result of disciplined spiritual practices and quite natural. And the reason I believe this is because they've been documented throughout history in both the east and the west. And here's the important part - when one truly follows a disciplined spiritual practices and these things occur, one feels humble about it. One does not want these things to occur in the presence of others because they are very intense and humbling experiences. One is more likely feel connected with Jesus' command to pray in the secret room and not on the street corner. I would be very wary of any spiritual leader who made public displays of his "spiritual gifts".

 

I really am interested in your feedback on these observations.

[pug]

OM,

One does not want these things to occur in the presence of others because they are very intense and humbling experiences. One is more likely feel connected with Jesus' command to pray in the secret room and not on the street corner. I would be very wary of any spiritual leader who made public displays of his "spiritual gifts.

I certainly agree with you. At my church we do not strive/show any manifestations publicly as often practiced in US ~ even televised like that Hines character. It just happens. There is no great fuss made. Or any "explaination" or any attempt to use the episode to advance any agenda.

 

However, if the child had no help and was plopped safely back to mom and/or dad from the sky....that would be a miracle, one that I certainly would never deny!

Rrrright gotcha SN, from the sky... plucked up and plopped back to her mom/dad?

 

But, even if THAT did happen you will fire off with another question: are you sure that is the biblical God?

[♦ nivek ♦]

Simple request of you and your Diety pug.

 

Looks like I am in desperate need for my kidneys to start working again.

 

You talk to daMan upstairs, make this happen with your feverent prayers, and I'll convert by testimony or sword every ExChristian on these Boards.

 

Oughta be a simple thing buds, medically provable. Baseline bloods in my case are on file, the results of some serious genetic deficienceis and diabeties are in black and blue print.

 

Get things fixed amigo, lets see those numbers come on back to the positive.

 

That could be a *miracle* proven...

 

kevinL

[pug]

SN,

...qualifies as god intervention

IF you have an anti-supernatural mindset, NOTHING will qualify. If you don't, you may explain away some/most as mere co-incidences, while others... you go...errr, how could that be? Too amazing to be a co-incidence. Could be God (any version); or some other force; or no explaination found up to today at 01:31PM, 23-12-2005.

 

SN,

Thank you for jolting me to think ~ logically ~ about miracles. So ok, now let's just re-classify it. Random occurances. WTF, it'll happen anyway. And with proper planning the outcome will even be better. So - talking to myself - don't wet your pants just yet puggie wuggie. Are we are all happy and good to go now?

 

Simple request of you and your Diety pug.

 

Looks like I am in desperate need for my kidneys to start working again.

 

You talk to daMan upstairs, make this happen with your feverent prayers, and I'll convert by testimony or sword every ExChristian on these Boards.

 

Oughta be a simple thing buds, medically provable. Baseline bloods in my case are on file, the results of some serious genetic deficienceis and diabeties are in black and blue print.

 

Get things fixed amigo, lets see those numbers come on back to the positive.

 

That could be a *miracle* proven...

 

kevinL

 

Ah hah kevin! Is this a genuine prayer request? Or more mocking?

 

Anyhoo if you get fixed i doubt you can convert any body. But i shall pray for you to be healed.

[mwc]

interesting...?

Sorry, no. In the different churches that I have attended there is an accepted "standard" of behavior. In those churches where people are expected to "behave" these types of experiences did not happen. Not once. In the others that I went to if these types of experiences were accepted, then guess what? They happened. Not every single time. That's the important part. These experiences were somewhat random. Depending on the accepted behavior for that church the display fit accordingly. So in the Holy Rollers church I went to the people dropping to the floor and having "fits" was acceptable and that's what they did. In others where simply shouting out or perhaps just crying or whatever was acceptable then that's as far as it went. In churches were you were expected to be silent then that's what happened. In every case the display matched exactly to the accepted standard of the church. This is not coincidence. This is exactly what is expected to happen in nearly every social situation and not just church (sporting events, concerts, parties and probably anything else work the same). How do you think that things like riots start and continue? One person, or a group, change the acceptable behavior and others play along. It happened in France not too long ago. It's the same exact thing. No miracle.

 

mwc

[pug]

OM,

 

Some false doctrines for you:

 

http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/clips.html

[pug]

interesting...?

Sorry, no. In the different churches that I have attended there is an accepted "standard" of behavior. In those churches where people are expected to "behave" these types of experiences did not happen. Not once. In the others that I went to if these types of experiences were accepted, then guess what? They happened. Not every single time. That's the important part. These experiences were somewhat random. Depending on the accepted behavior for that church the display fit accordingly. So in the Holy Rollers church I went to the people dropping to the floor and having "fits" was acceptable and that's what they did. In others where simply shouting out or perhaps just crying or whatever was acceptable then that's as far as it went. In churches were you were expected to be silent then that's what happened. In every case the display matched exactly to the accepted standard of the church. This is not coincidence. This is exactly what is expected to happen in nearly every social situation and not just church (sporting events, concerts, parties and probably anything else work the same). How do you think that things like riots start and continue? One person, or a group, change the acceptable behavior and others play along. It happened in France not too long ago. It's the same exact thing. No miracle.

 

 

Are we talking miracles? All of you have changed my mind about miracles... Next miracle would be if kevin gets kidney-healed... until then...

 

Anyway, you are right, another church i go to, the accepted behaviour is quiet and so it is. They also speak in tongues (sing in tongues as well!) but no rolling in the aisles.

 

But playing along or behaving in that or any "odd" manner is not so easy. For the life of me i couldn't cough out a holy giggle. Neither could the other adults. I think only 3 adults collapsed that day. The laughing episode is really rare in my church ~ just that day i witnessed it. 1 guy did not laugh, his lower jaw was quivering and he couldn't stop, poor chap ~ the pastor commented this was the first time he's seen in. And not once have i been slain or fallen (ha ha famous last words... maybe next week i'll be back telling you about it and you'll say auto-suggestion?).

 

Holy roly in US, same/similar as in Malaysia (an Islamic-majority country)... Korea (a Buddhist strong hold)... across the world... hmmmm... yeah, co-incidence... no, satan's work... no, that resident spirit... no the other one...

 

IF one person, or a group, change the acceptable behavior ~ others play along...? Are we expecting all of us to be homosexuals or lesbians any time soon? Just need one person to start it right? How about rape? How about mass conversion to atheists?

 

MWC, neat explaination and i guess part of it is true-acceptable... but i'll still keep my mind open.

[Open_Minded]

OM,

 

Some false doctrines for you:

 

http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/clips.html

OK... Pug you have to fill me in here....

 

What should this site be saying to me? Don't beat around the bush - just put it out there. What do you want me to get from this site and what does this site have to do with the things I wrote to you about?

[Asuryan]

Poor Kevin! What happened to you?

 

However, I have now a question for Pug.

What would be needed for you to stop worshipping your god?

What would be needed for you to stop believing in your god?

 

I'm curious to know your answers to my questions. You said you are here to convert us, so you are planning to make us stop believing in our gods and/or to make us start believing in YOUR own god's concept.

To achieve your conversion goal, you should ask yourself "what would be needed for them to start (or better, *resume*) worshipping the bible god?" and then proceed toward that goal, either with logic or with facts and evidence.

But since you are here with the declared objective of converting us, you leave yourself open to our own questions. So, please, answer mine now. I really want to know if there *is* something that could bring you to stop believing in bible god... something that could bring you to believe that the things in your life that you think changed because of God, have in fact changed *not* because of a coincidence or serie of coincidences, but because of a chain of actions, reactions, and consequences?

[SkepticOfBible]

 

I'm curious to know your answers to my questions. You said you are here to convert us, so you are planning to make us stop believing in our gods and/or to make us start believing in YOUR own god's concept.

 

 

When did he say that?

[Asuryan]

 

When did he say that?

 

This same thread. I read it all, but can't remember where exactly he said it. I'm not patient enough to browse the whole thread again

Of course he could've edited it. Or maybe I'm hallucinating (I hope not though).

[pug]

Poor Kevin! What happened to you?

 

However, I have now a question for Pug.

What would be needed for you to stop worshipping your god?

What would be needed for you to stop believing in your god?

 

I'm curious to know your answers to my questions. You said you are here to convert us, so you are planning to make us stop believing in our gods and/or to make us start believing in YOUR own god's concept.

To achieve your conversion goal, you should ask yourself "what would be needed for them to start (or better, *resume*) worshipping the bible god?" and then proceed toward that goal, either with logic or with facts and evidence.

But since you are here with the declared objective of converting us, you leave yourself open to our own questions. So, please, answer mine now. I really want to know if there *is* something that could bring you to stop believing in bible god... something that could bring you to believe that the things in your life that you think changed because of God, have in fact changed *not* because of a coincidence or serie of coincidences, but because of a chain of actions, reactions, and consequences?

 

Yo dude ~ no such ambitions! I'm not here to convert you or any body!

 

OM,

 

Some false doctrines for you:

 

http://www.biblefacts.org/cult/clips.html

OK... Pug you have to fill me in here....

 

What should this site be saying to me? Don't beat around the bush - just put it out there. What do you want me to get from this site and what does this site have to do with the things I wrote to you about?

 

I think awhile back you asked me what i meant by false doctrines ~ so i point you to a link to illuminate my point... that's all. Clear enough?

[Asuryan]

I would think that any "god" as you would have him would be bored silly and worship would be the last thing you'd want to try to "stimulate" your existance.

Peeeeeeeeeeeet wrong! Quite fun to see an unsuspecting un-believer become a follower, then watch him do acrobatics to convert another. Woo hoo stimulating power.

 

So... can you really, honestly, say that when you were saying this, you weren't referring to yourself as the "Unsuspecting unbeliever that becomes a follower, then watch him do acrobatics to convert another"? Can you HONESTLY say that?

 

I have very few reasons. I believe in Jesus Christ because He has helped, guided, shown me in so many amazing ways. I've seen Him changing my loved ones. I have changed. I hope to change others, to glorify Him.

 

And how exactly, pray tell, do you plan on changing us to glorify Him?

These sentences do seem like half-heartedly cloaked admissions that you're here to convert us, you know?

and please, for once in your life avoid answering with a mocking, annoying, aggravating tone. I don't want to hear something shitty like "yep. me bad. me troll. you good atheist. Ok. gotcha." for ONCE in your life give us a REAL answer!!

[Open_Minded]

Hello Pug...

 

I've been tracking this thread for some time now and I've a question.

 

You seem to be really going through some questioning... what is the biggest fear you have?

 

I mean if you were to let go of this god that you, yourself, have admitted "testing" on a regular basis, what do you think would happen?

 

Just wondering Pug, I won't attack you for your answer.

 

Dear Open Minded,

 

Now that i'm slowly befriending my version of God, i seem to have no fear. Any attacks by the so-called satan, pray in the name of Jesus, and he's history... non-believers, please do not try this. But i believe this version of my God who has His roots in the Jewish religion which has its roots in ... ah, ask my God that.

 

If i let go of this version of my God, He'll just come looking for me. Some ridiculous thing about Him loving me ~ my understanding of my version of God anyway.

 

You see, i used to pray/worship some other deities ~ monkey god, heaven god and earth god ~ and when i converted, these deities/god spirits came after me with a vengeance (if you believe in spirits that is). Jesus Christ saved me from them, but my God it was a horrific, violent struggle!! My pastors had to call the cops! Yeah, like in da movies, i was choking the pastor! And i was hospitalised (in solidary confinement, in the mental ward) for 3 days. My church had to pray for me for days. Miraculously i did not get committed to the loony bin (could have!). So here i am... telling you gentle folks about my ordeal. it wasn't fun.

 

Pug...

 

If you leave and God comes looking for you... do you think that he will come after you "with a veneance" as well?

 

You have to explain this further...because I asked you "what the biggest fear" you have is, if you decide to look at other understandings of God. Then you recited this story, so now I'm wondering if you "fear" God coming after you "with a vengeance"?

 

Just wondering

[pug]

Assuryan,

 

So... can you really, honestly, say that when you were saying this, you weren't referring to yourself as the "Unsuspecting unbeliever that becomes a follower, then watch him do acrobatics to convert another"? Can you HONESTLY say that?

 

No. I was not refering to myself. I was answering on behalf of God (God forbid!!). Sorry for mis-communication and for speaking on behalf of God.

 

I truly believe only God has the power to convert anybody. No Christian can! Only with the guide of the Holy Spirit can we testify and I believe, ultimately, you do need divine intervention to be convinced, converted to the faith. We only can testify or convey the information (His Word), after that it's up to Him. IF you choose to you can close your heart, maybe the timing is wrong or simply you don't believe.

 

Most times, it's through a miracle; usually a healing prayer answered. And these are like incurable, hopeless cases. I know of a family who was converted that way ~ one of the son had terminal cancer. Another guy tried to commit suicide (he had already cut his guts open!) but was saved. Another guy turned from a hard-core gambling, womanising, smoking gangster boss to a regular family guy. These are all close friends ~ not testimonials heard but seen. There are many more... so... and unless you have witnessed them first hand...

 

And I have been "evangelised" many times by both aggressive and gentle evangelists throughout my life ~ i only accepted Him recently but not through any evangelist's efforts.

[pug]

OM,

Pug...

 

If you leave and God comes looking for you... do you think that he will come after you "with a veneance" as well?

 

You have to explain this further...because I asked you "what the biggest fear" you have is, if you decide to look at other understandings of God. Then you recited this story, so now I'm wondering if you "fear" God coming after you "with a vengeance"?

 

Just wondering

 

Not fear, not from Him. Let's see ~ what would be my biggest fear? No more blessings? I'm not exactly living a luxurious, problem-free life, so... no fear there. Honestly, i don't know... perhaps if i leave, He'll rebuke, scourge me endlessly to make me fear Him? Or strike me down with a long-suffering disease? Or lightning? Or wipe out my entire family?

 

Not with a vengeance either.... hmmmm, but if He does there's nothing much i can do, right? When the other pagan deities came after me with a vengeance, praying in Jesus's name saved me... so if God comes after me with a vengeance... this depends: if i become an atheist then no being will help me, if i become a Muslim then Allah? if Buddhism then i have to help myself; if i revert back to the pagan deities ~ i don't think they are powerful enough to challenge Jesus Christ.

 

That's what i think hypothetically. Do you have any other scenarios?

[Asuryan]

Assuryan,

 

I truly believe only God has the power to convert anybody. No Christian can! Only with the guide of the Holy Spirit can we testify and I believe, ultimately, you do need divine intervention to be convinced, converted to the faith. We only can testify or convey the information (His Word), after that it's up to Him. IF you choose to you can close your heart, maybe the timing is wrong or simply you don't believe.

 

 

Does Not Compile.

You say that God alone has the power to convert people.

God is all powerful.

God wants us to go to heaven.

Thus: God wants to convert us, so that we may go to heaven.

 

But if God wants to convert us, and he is all powerful, how can we close our hearts to him?

He is all powerful. If he wants to convert us so that he may save us and bring us to heaven, it's child play for him to obtain that: he knows just what's needed for each one of us to believe again.

And he's all powerful so he can give us what we need to believe again in half a second. In Nivek and HanSolo and Fwee and many other's case, healing people in the process.

So why in his omnipotence and goodness, he isn't doing anything for these people? For us?

It's simple!

Because he doesn't exist.

Can you give me a different explanation for god's silence, pug?

Can you tell me why he is just sitting there in the clouds, doing nothing and leaving our families in suffering and pain and grave illnesses, leaving us without him? You can't tell us that it is "better for us" this way, because if we exchristians died tomorrow, and your god was true, we would end up in hell to be tortured forever. How is this for our greater good, ending up in hell?

 

Most times, it's through a miracle; usually a healing prayer answered. And these are like incurable, hopeless cases.

 

Cancer is not incurable, mind you.

It can regress and ultimately even disappear entirely.

It is a natural process, although very, very rare.

Saying that cancer regression happens because of god, is like saying that thunderbolts happen because god is angry with us.

[pug]

Cancer is not incurable, mind you.

It can regress and ultimately even disappear entirely.

It is a natural process, although very, very rare.

Saying that cancer regression happens because of god, is like saying that thunderbolts happen because god is angry with us.

 

It's exactly that ~ very, very rare and yet happened after a specific prayer for that specific person that was so amazing that it prompted? persuaded? convinced? said family to follow Christ.

 

And the drinking, womanising, gangster boss? How was he "cured"? By following Christ. Well, i assume not so easy... you'll have to open your heart and be willing to accept the faith. His ex-partners have warned him not to convert any of their gang members (just in case).

 

 

 

Can you tell me why he is just sitting there in the clouds, doing nothing and leaving our families in suffering and pain and grave illnesses, leaving us without him?

 

Perhaps because you believe He does not exist?

 

Do you think just by being a Christian you will not have to suffer pain or illnessses or face challenges?

[Sofia]

Pug-

 

How serious is your questioning? Tell me where you're at in your thinking.

 

Sofi

[Open_Minded]

Not fear, not from Him. Let's see ~ ....

 

Not with a vengeance either.... hmmmm, but if He does there's nothing much i can do, right? When the other pagan deities came after me with a vengeance, praying in Jesus's name saved me... so if God comes after me with a vengeance... this depends: if i become an atheist then no being will help me, if i become a Muslim then Allah? if Buddhism then i have to help myself; if i revert back to the pagan deities ~ i don't think they are powerful enough to challenge Jesus Christ.

 

That's what i think hypothetically. Do you have any other scenarios?

 

What do I think?

 

I think that if you feel the "other pagan deities" had any power at all, that you are still perceiving "God" among "other gods".

 

I think that no one here is asking you to "become an atheist", only to think - really think - about the perception of "god" that you currently have.

 

I know - from personal experience - that it is possible to be Christian and have a deeper, more universal understanding of God than you seem to have.

 

But - you seem very angry Pug. And I don't know if you are really catching anything that people here are trying to say. You say you came to this forum to learn... but your anger seems to keep you from really exploring the full depth of your own beliefs. And I think that this is sad

[pug]

But if God wants to convert us, and he is all powerful, how can we close our hearts to him?

It's called free will. You decide! If He decides for you i'm sure you'll un-decide later/again. So you decide ~ you find out for yourself what's good for you or what to believe. Knock yourself out.

 

He is all powerful. If he wants to convert us so that he may save us and bring us to heaven, it's child play for him to obtain that: he knows just what's needed for each one of us to believe again.

He knows what's needed but will you be convinced? If He shows you a little miracle will you scoff at it and say it's mere co-incidence? If He shows you nothing will you be convinced by someone else's (someone close hopefully) testimony?