Get Your Prayers Answered Now!!!

[pug]

dear mwc,

 

Why would you pray for non-believers to know "Him?" You say you're not into conversions but here you are. You say that it's pretty much coincidence but you pray for conversions as if it's not coincidence

.

My bad. Generally, I'm too much of a wimp when called to do the great commission. Specifically...I'm not into conversions because i can't. Only He can do it. Even when in the rare moments i attempt to, it's the Holy Spirit that's doing it on behalf of me.

 

You seem to alter your answers based on which point you're trying to make. The first thing you need to establish is that your way is the way. No xian in history has even come close. For something so basic and absolute it sure is impossible to demonstrate.

The first thing you need to grasp is my way is a blurry, fuzzy way... just fumbling along, i'm only a baby Christian. Therefore, His way is better ~ but He also alters as He goes along (oh, forgot He never changes?) and having said that i'll be accused of being a salad bar species. It should be basic and absolute. But why, in Heaven's name, are we discussing this at all anyway?

 

Do you operate the rest of your life the same way? I doubt it. People pay more attention to the new car or TV they want to buy then the "god" they follow. It's really a shame.

Materialism? Please. Treasures in Heaven better, no? Aaah... but there's no Heaven according to you. No I don't operate my life that way. what way again?

 

Do you simply pray when you need medical attention (like Christian Scientists) or do you seek out a doctor? Some people do both but when it comes down to it most people go to a doctor since they have the track record (despite a lot of failures). People trust the doctors first.

I do both.

 

Only when doctors fail, or appear to be failing, do they move onto "god." If things go badly they blame the doctors and absolve "god."

I do not blame the docs or absolve God. It just simply means i'm going to die or suffer until i die.

 

When things go well they praise "god" and overlook/diminish the doctors. The doctors have the track record so they bear the burden.

Hey, you forgot to add He assisted the docs to engineer a quick recovery.

 

Since "god" has such a lousy record people excuse "god." It's almost automatic...a reflex. It reveals the truth about "god" and "faith" in so many ways.

I didn't know you were assigned to keep record of my God's miracles. Lousy huh? So, you have just revealed the ultimate truth of my God?

 

[mwc]

why don't all the Jews become xian?

...and why don't all xtians become jews?

Well, according to xianity that would be a step backward in the evolution of the religion. Who wants the crappy old version with all its rituals and (perfect) laws (according to the OT and even jesus to a degree but not Paul) when you can get the shiny new "just sort of apologize to 'god' and you're good to go even if you're still a dick and don't plan to change that fact" take no responsibility version? As far as the evolution goes the better answer would be why don't all xians "upgrade" to being Mormon (Islam could work here too)?

 

mwc

[pug]

On whose authority are you telling me this? Bruce?

My very own authority in fact.

 

Unless I'm mistaken and bible-god came to you long before you had even heard of the bible or its "god." I don't think you're telling me this so the bible came first. You read it (heard testimonies from others falls into this arena) and then came the "personal" relationship. It's the only way it ever happens no matter the religion. Knowledge of the religion is first (in whatever form...even "background" noise while you went about your daily business for however many years) then all the "great" and "miraculous" things the religion offers comes after. Hindsight is then used to perhaps "see" (meaning reinterpret) past events to fit this new world view.

 

No the bible did not come first. I studied the "idiot's guide to world religions", then read "christian cults". I was and still am highly suspicious of this christianity ~ there are many false teachings about. Every testimony i heard i scoffed at. Until i met my God. I do not fit the miracles to whatever. The cynic that i am - most times i put it down to pure/random co-incidences but damn still amazing nevertheless, so why question it? Yes, i have come to believe because of my personal experience and also seeing drastic changes to people i intimately know.

 

 

No high, no low. Don't generalise. Some xtians are like this, some aren't. Non-xtians the same.

I can't generalize? Okay then. Point retracted.

 

And non-xtians have more compassion? Ah? Oh forgot you are contributing knowledge... bringing some new facts to the table. Ok, gotcha.

This is where you draw the wrong conclusion. Xians are, as a whole (damn, I'm generalizing again), no better or worse than anyone else (based on nothing more than simple observation)...BUT they should be better. They have the "spirit" within in them "helping" them along their way (I know the spirit frequents this site so maybe he can elaborate). If the claim is this helping hand improves you some way and yet you are statistically the same then what's the point of making the claim?

...xtians should be better? That's sweet. Actually it's quite scary. In my part of the world (Malaysia, south east Asia) most of the xtians are way, way too nice it scares me. It's not human!! That was the reason i run a mile when i see them coming evanlagizing. EeeeK, now i'm one of them. By the way, i have never heard Christians claim that they are better. They are just nice (well my side of the pond anyway). Me? I'm not that nice.

 

It's all explained any number of ways all of which are nothing more than cop-outs. Yet another biblical/xian claim that doesn't hold up to the simplest of observational tests. Perfect love should flow through you and yet it appears that you're a rather cold guy.

So? Then i humbly apologise. Give me time. I'm trying to perfect it. But to please my God ok?

 

Passing the compassion you should possess and offer onto a non-existant "god" so that he can take care of it. It's a convenient way to avoid having to truly give a damn.

Passing on compassion? Can i do that? I just pass on my life to Him ~ so far, so good.

 

Look at most any of the "real" xians that visit here or frequent any of their sites and you'll see. Like everyone else they "love' the shit out of you but when it's crunch time it's every man for themself.

Well, Amanda is not like that. And i try to rebutt/answer as many of your questions/comments as best as i can. What do you mean every man for himself?

 

Truly a hypocritical bunch. Non-believers (more than just non-xians but those who don't claim a hard and fast code) can't be held to this same standard so the comparison is irrelevant anyway.

Christians are human too. Yeah they have a code. But being human, not to forget a little tempter called satan, they do/can fail. You expect every Christian to be perfect? Look, behold ~ i'm a total failure shooting the breeze with you now.

 

Merry Christmas.

 

 

 

 

why don't all the Jews become xian?

...and why don't all xtians become jews?

Well, according to xianity that would be a step backward in the evolution of the religion. Who wants the crappy old version with all its rituals and (perfect) laws (according to the OT and even jesus to a degree but not Paul) when you can get the shiny new "just sort of apologize to 'god' and you're good to go even if you're still a dick and don't plan to change that fact" take no responsibility version?

 

Have to un-dick ~ part of the process ~ and no sort of apologize; should commit to do it.

 

As far as the evolution goes the better answer would be why don't all xians "upgrade" to being Mormon (Islam could work here too)?

 

It was rumoured Islam copied Christianity. And Muslims believe Jesus is only an angel. So, not much of an upgrade there. And Mormon? Oooooh Mormon ooooh cool but no (and you know why right?).

[SkepticOfBible]

As for being terrified, well, I think you don't quite know the definition of the word. Hell is no more real than your "god." I am "terrified" that people walk around with the crutch of religion. It causes people who need real help to not seek it out. It blinds them to real problems and "outsources" responsibility to a non-existant entity.

 

Actually I have no problem with that. Life is too complex and people use religion as vehicle to live in this world. I think religion is always isn't about the "crutch syndrome". It's also about fellowship and a sense of purpose in life.

 

History has shown men cannot live without religion(communism) nor can they live totally under it(Middle ages and the Current Middle East). I guess there needs to be balance.

 

Throw out all your bibles and all related materials. Better yet move to a non-xian country (try to get one that's downright hostile towards xianity) and, this is the hard part, figure out how to remove any trace of your "god" from your mind. Once you do that write a note to yourself to report back who your "god" is in a few years [/quote ]

 

Pug, BTW does live in non christian country, where Islam is a major religion. I pray that nothing happens to him.

 

Pug is not our typical fundie christian, cause I don't see him shoving his religion down our throat, and I know he has changed quite a lot since he first came here.

 

 

It was rumoured Islam copied Christianity.

 

Funny thing, Hindus accuse Islam of same.

 

And Muslims believe Jesus is only an angel.

 

You must be confusing Muslims with JW.

 

Muslims believe that Jesus was prophet and messenger of Allah just like Moses, Adam and Mohammed.

 

In the end time Jesus will come and judge the Muslims. off course unbelievers will be rotting in hell. (now that part I can believe is copied from Christianity)

[pug]

Hey Pritish, thanks for ummm... oh just thanks.

 

A miracle... a non-xtian coming in to save me. wa ka ka no laaaaaa, mere co-incidence. Hey wait it was planned to the nth degree: I called him in New Zealand to save my sorry ass.

 

Amazing, huh?

 

There you go a miracle right before your eyes.

 

Muslims believe that Jesus was prophet and messenger of Allah just like Moses, Adam and Mohammed.

 

 

Yeah, my bad not an angel, another prophet/messenger.

Muslims believe that Jesus was prophet and messenger of Allah just like Moses, Adam and Mohammed.

 

 

In the end time Jesus will come and judge the Muslims. off course unbelievers will be rotting in hell.

 

Not rotting, burning eternally. But Pritishd... (read my lips).

[mwc]

I can't believe that I'm still awake at 2 in the morning arguing this...

 

No the bible did not come first. I studied the "idiot's guide to world religions", then read "christian cults". I was and still am highly suspicious of this christianity ~ there are many false teachings about. Every testimony i heard i scoffed at. Until i met my God. I do not fit the miracles to whatever. The cynic that i am - most times i put it down to pure/random co-incidences but damn still amazing nevertheless, so why question it? Yes, i have come to believe because of my personal experience and also seeing drastic changes to people i intimately know.

You've made my point. The bible may not have come first (the other books served the same purpose) but this "god" you follow did not just appear out of thin air. You found this god and not the other way around.

 

...xtians should be better? That's sweet. Actually it's quite scary. In my part of the world (Malaysia, south east Asia) most of the xtians are way, way too nice it scares me. It's not human!! That was the reason i run a mile when i see them coming evanlagizing. EeeeK, now i'm one of them. By the way, i have never heard Christians claim that they are better. They are just nice (well my side of the pond anyway). Me? I'm not that nice.

No matter where on the planet you are the xians should be better than those who aren't xian. They should be filled with the spirit and the spirit should be helping them overcome temptation. What is the point of the spirit if not to help? "God" is supposed to exist everywhere so there must be something special about the spirit itself that is different from this general presence of "god." It should be to help you be more "god"-like and therefore better.

 

So? Then i humbly apologise. Give me time. I'm trying to perfect it. But to please my God ok?

Why to please "god?" If this is something you truly want then why only for "god?" Shouldn't this be something that everyone strives for with or without "god?" I'd say it is. This is the type of thing that diminishes humans to build up a perfect "god" that requires no such thing. Do it for yourself and everyone else but not just for "god."

 

Anyhow, part of your appearing to be cold to me could just be that we're from different parts of the world with different ideas of what "cold" is.

 

Passing on compassion? Can i do that? I just pass on my life to Him ~ so far, so good.

What I meant is since "god" will be compassionate you don't really need to be compassionate yourself. It allows people to avoid feeling the pain of others since "god" will do it. People defer all sorts of things to "god" and it's really not the best way of living (although it's the easiest since they only have to look out for themselves at that point).

 

Well, Amanda is not like that. And i try to rebutt/answer as many of your questions/comments as best as i can. What do you mean every man for himself?

This isn't meant as an insult to anyone but people like Amanda and other "new age" style xians don't really count as xians to me (or to many of the xians I've spoken with). I actually find a number of interesting things about that particular type of xianity. Not enough to get me back but still interesting. I also am impressed that you do take the time to respond to things. I am a little disappointed I haven't gotten my zombie army now that it appears the zombie rats are coming but I gave until the end of December so there's still hope.

 

Everyman for himself means that xians like to talk about community and love and all these sorts of inclusive things. The problem is when things go bad many of them run off and only help themselves. There are the exceptions but again they don't do any better than any other group. If being xian only really means to not go to hell when you die then what really is its purpose? If there's no real change in the xian to make them "better" than they were then it's really quite an empty promise. Now if all you are concerned about is avoiding the xian hell then I guess you are all set...just hope that you picked the right "god" so you don't end up in some other religions hell.

 

Christians are human too. Yeah they have a code. But being human, not to forget a little tempter called satan, they do/can fail. You expect every Christian to be perfect? Look, behold ~ i'm a total failure shooting the breeze with you now.

I don't expect perfection at all but I would expect a statistical difference. There is none. This is the problem. If I, now not being xian, then I fail alone. It is my problem and I must accept that. I no longer can say things like "Satan tempted me and I gave in." No, I made the mistake and I must fix this mistake. I can't turn around and ask "god" for forgiveness or help. Xians hurt others and apologize to "god" and not the person they wronged. They then expect "god" to help them do better and if they don't then it was them being weak and Satan tempting them again. The cycle goes on and on. Without "god" I have no excuse. If I keep doing wrong then the problem lies with me. I am not doing what needs to be done to take care of this problem.

 

Have to un-dick ~ part of the process ~ and no sort of apologize; should commit to do it.

Exactly. Xians should commit to it. They should want to be better. Most, it seems, just like to say this though. They expect "god" to change them but keep doing the same things over and over. The failure is partly theirs but also Satan and not enough "faith" in "god." The problem really is they just did not want to put the full effort into changing and this allows them a way out of that responsibility.

 

It was rumoured Islam copied Christianity. And Muslims believe Jesus is only an angel. So, not much of an upgrade there. And Mormon? Oooooh Mormon ooooh cool but no (and you know why right?).

I think that Muslims believe that jesus was just another prophet. I think it's the Jehovah's Witnesses that think that jesus is an angel (I can see how the usage of the "sons of god" could be used to reach this conclusion). My point was if Judaism evolved into xianity then why is it that xianity can't evolve into something else (like Mormonism which claims to be xianity plus a little bit more)? You see xianity is to Judaism as Mormonism is to xianity. All claim to be based on the one before it but not everyone immediately "upgrades" to this new version. So how is that so many claim to know what the "right" version in this evolution is? Of course, as you know the evolution isn't so simple but I've kept it to the minimum so it is easier to see what I mean.

 

mwc

[pug]

Good morning m, it's 7:13pm 21-12 here. Thanks for staying up.

 

You've made my point. The bible may not have come first (the other books served the same purpose) but this "god" you follow did not just appear out of thin air. You found this god and not the other way around.

I did not find this God. He came after me. Yeah, I know He existed. And i was running far, far away in the other direction. My reading about Him was to rationalise why not to follow Him. Whichever way round He's certainly caught me now.

 

Now if all you are concerned about is avoiding the xian hell then I guess you are all set...just hope that you picked the right "god" so you don't end up in some other religions hell.

No i'm not too concerned about hell. As an ex-Buddhist i could end up being re-incarnated as a cockroach or your zombie rat.

 

What I meant is since "god" will be compassionate you don't really need to be compassionate yourself. It allows people to avoid feeling the pain of others since "god" will do it. People defer all sorts of things to "god" and it's really not the best way of living (although it's the easiest since they only have to look out for themselves at that point).

I think there is a mis-understanding here. BTW are u male or female? Male i guess. I do not pass on my compassionateness to God. I repeat, you mean that is possible? I simply ask Him to ease my personal sufferings and ask Him to bless others ~ that's all ~ that is if it's not too much trouble...

[mwc]

Actually I have no problem with that. Life is too complex and people use religion as vehicle to live in this world. I think religion is always isn't about the "crutch syndrome". It's also about fellowship and a sense of purpose in life.

 

History has shown men cannot live without religion(communism) nor can they live totally under it(Middle ages and the Current Middle East). I guess there needs to be balance.

True enough. All things in moderation (I had a teacher that told me that was an old Greek saying...I don't know if it is or not but I like it). Religion can definately have a place when used in moderation but too many people don't use it that way. It takes over their lives and the worse part is they often don't even realize it. The reverse is true too.

 

Pug, BTW does live in non christian country, where Islam is a major religion. I pray that nothing happens to him.

I noticed this from his last message. The fact that you pray nothing happens to him shows how religion (or any group think) usually becomes something to fear and not something to praise. The world would not be a better place if most people all thought the same since the minorities would be in real danger. The problem I see with most religions is that they are not able to change and adapt. Xianity sure does not do this and this rigid system has the ability to bring major damage. At least the pagan religions of old, from what I've read about some of them, were able to morph into other things and this fluidity avoided a lot of problems that we've seen since those system were absorbed or destroyed by xianity (and the rest that followed).

 

I also don't want anything bad to happen to Pug. I'm sure you weren't implying anything but I figured I'd say it anyway. If something happened to Pug who would pray for my zombie army?

 

Pug is not our typical fundie christian, cause I don't see him shoving his religion down our throat, and I know he has changed quite a lot since he first came here.

No, he really doesn't. I think I may need to back off Pug a little bit since I think some of the problems I've had with him might be misunderstandings due to locale (among other things). The whole thing about the parking spaces really bothers me though.

 

mwc

[pug]

...arguing this...

 

God forbid... are we arguing?[/b]

 

I also don't want anything bad to happen to Pug. I'm sure you weren't implying anything but I figured I'd say it anyway. If something happened to Pug who would pray for my zombie army?

Yeah, who will indeed! You don't really, really need that zombie army would you? Don't regret ok?

 

I think I may need to back off Pug a little bit since I think some of the problems I've had with him might be misunderstandings due to locale (among other things). The whole thing about the parking spaces really bothers me though.

Don't let the parking thang bother ya mwc ~ it's between God and me. He'll get me, don't ya worry about that. So... if this is my last post... woo hoo another miracle, haleluyah. Hooo boy i'm really gonna get it.

 

The problem I see with most religions is that they are not able to change and adapt. Xianity sure does not do this and this rigid system has the ability to bring major damage

 

Excuse me? Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant ~ then subdivided into .... can't even keep track.... BTW i'm Assemblies of God subdivided into Charismatic....

[scotter]

Pug, just a a curious question. How do you look back at the Buddha now? Once your subject (or object) of worship. Who is the Buddha to you now?

 

I won't comment further on your reply, if you do reply.

 

I have also talked to Christian converts to Buddhism, I asked them how do they look back at Jesus then? I got all sorts of fascinating answers.

[Open_Minded]

I mean if you were to let go of this god that you, yourself, have admitted "testing" on a regular basis, what do you think would happen?

 

Just wondering Pug, I won't attack you for your answer.

Dear Open Minded,

 

Now that i'm slowly befriending my version of God, i seem to have no fear. Any attacks by the so-called satan, pray in the name of Jesus, and he's history... non-believers, please do not try this. But i believe this version of my God who has His roots in the Jewish religion which has its roots in ... ah, ask my God that.

 

If i let go of this version of my God, He'll just come looking for me. Some ridiculous thing about Him loving me ~ my understanding of my version of God anyway.

 

You see, i used to pray/worship some other deities ~ monkey god, heaven god and earth god ~ and when i converted, these deities/god spirits came after me with a vengeance (if you believe in spirits that is). Jesus Christ saved me from them, but my God it was a horrific, violent struggle!! My pastors had to call the cops! Yeah, like in da movies, i was choking the pastor! And i was hospitalised (in solidary confinement, in the mental ward) for 3 days. My church had to pray for me for days. Miraculously i did not get committed to the loony bin (could have!). So here i am... telling you gentle folks about my ordeal. it wasn't fun.

 

Oooops co-incidence again? yeah, whatever

 

 

Pug I'm going to make some assumptions here... based on what I've been reading. If I'm off base, please just correct me.

 

1. Even though you have a real connection with the understanding of God you have been taught in your current church, you are still questioning... searching for something more, deeper maybe? I gather this by statements you make about "testing", or the statement you made in a post answering MWC... You wrote...

 

No the bible did not come first. I studied the "idiot's guide to world religions", then read "christian cults".

I was and still am highly suspicious of this christianity

~ there are many false teachings about.

 

2. Also, you come to this board regularly and have exposed yourself to some severe challenging... this shows much Pug. It shows that you are open minded and willing to learn. It shows that whatever understanding of God that is being given to you right now is not filling the void. And you are searching for an understanding of God that goes deeper, maybe?

 

Pug - I also see in your language that deep down you know you are working with an understanding of God. That you do not comprehend God as God is, but rather through a particular theological point of view. I gather this with language such as "Now that i'm slowly befriending my version of God".

 

So... here are a few thoughts for you to consider.

 

1st - you've taken a major step in recognizing that you are working with a "version of God". This is major Pug because knowing this about yourself allows you to seek deeper understanding of ultimate reality that you and I, and many others call God. But, you must always realize that whatever understanding that you work with at any particular time must be open. We are limited by our physical senses and the limited dimensions of space/time that we perceive reality with. So we will NEVER understand God completely.

 

2ndly - you should know that Christianity has a meditative dimension to it as well. I say this because you've had exposure to eastern thought processes through the Buddhist tradition. If you are seeking to deepen your understanding of God then I would strongly suggest learning Christian meditation. Meditation is the one form of prayer that transcends all cultures.

 

3rdly - I'd suggest looking at your current understanding of prayer in more depth. Try looking at prayer as a process of inner change within you, your soul. A process of opening you up to the God that is always present in and through and beyond all of reality. Prayer does not change God, Pug. God just is. Prayer changes you. Einstein said once, "God does not play dice with the universe". God doesn't play favorites, either Pug. God just is, the way the universe just is, or the way atomic matter just is, or the way love just is. Love changes you, but you cannot change love - it simply is.....

 

And this is why I suggested looking at Christian meditative practices ... intentionally practicing meditation opens you up to God as God is, not as you perceive God to be. It changes you - not God. Father Thomas Keating puts it this way:

 

The Gift of Knowledge gives us a true idea of the created world in relation to God: it is not a substitute for God, as we tend to make it. The created world is a stepping-stone to God and manifests God. Without that orientation, the created world is sheer vanity or illusion. Since we, too, are created beings, there is a certain humbling character that the Gift of Knowledge imparts--

namely that we are basically prone to illusion and that our way of looking at life is not the only way and certainly not the most accurate. Such knowledge opens us, like the opening of mind and heart that we pursue in Centering Prayer, to the reality of God just as God is, without our interpretations--however devout or pious.

 

This is very important Pug, to go into prayer understanding that we are seeking God as God is. To let go of our own illusions about God. You have already taken a major step. You've already acknowledge that you are operating with a particular "version of God". Now all you have to do is understand that you can still be Christian and be open to understanding God on a deeper level than a particular version that has been imparted to you through theology.

 

Sorry if this all sounds like a sermon. But, as I've said I've been watching this thread for sometime and you just seemed as if you were looking for something more...

[NotBlinded]

Does anyone else find it interesting that there is a necessity of prayer in the first place?

I view prayer as just a way to get oneself motivated to do the things that one has the ability to do anyway. Call it the power of positive thinking or getting in touch with the awareness behind the ego. We think postive thoughts and positive results usually ensue.

[NotBlinded]

3rdly - I'd suggest looking at your current understanding of prayer in more depth. Try looking at prayer as a process of inner change within you, your soul. A process of opening you up to the God that is always present in and through and beyond all of reality. Prayer does not change God, Pug. God just is. Prayer changes you. Einstein said once, "God does not play dice with the universe". God doesn't play favorites, either Pug. God just is, the way the universe just is, or the way atomic matter just is, or the way love just is. Love changes you, but you cannot change love - it simply is.....

 

And this is why I suggested looking at Christian meditative practices ... intentionally practicing meditation opens you up to God as God is, not as you perceive God to be. It changes you - not God.

Yes!

[pug]

Open-Minded,

 

my version of God

 

Thanks for your illumination. Of course i do know the real meaning and purpose of prayer. Like you said, God just is. Who are we to study Him!? Or say He has favourites. As you know, sometimes we humans (like me), call it playful, unreasonable, demanding... simply can't resist being a little selfish and ask for ... a parking space? We cast our burdens on Him. Both big and small.

 

Sure He has changed me. Look at me! Fending attacks on myself and my God. Dust it off, walk on.

 

And... when i mentioned "my version of god" i'm being sarcastic to mwc ~ because he kept taunting me with that statement. Ok, i'm only human, couldn't resist that temptation.

 

What do you think? My access to the cyberworld cross checking info. Amanda advising me. My Christian forum. My church. My pastors. My fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

But you OM you have put it all down succintly for all to read... what i have been trying to skirt around. I think we can safely add 1.5 halleluyah points to the glorification department?

 

Hey thanks again.

[Asimov]

As you know, sometimes we humans (like me), call it playful, unreasonable, demanding... simply can't resist being a little selfish and ask for ... a parking space? We cast our burdens on Him. Both big and small.

 

How is that any more selfish than demanding love?

 

I think it is asking MORE when you demand love than to request a parking spot, or that your children doesn't die. And when you have the power to grant it and it doesn't inconvenience you, why not?

 

If you were walking along and some old lady asked you to pick up a pen she dropped for her, would you do it?

 

If you said no, what do you think anyone elses reaction to that would be? What would you cite as a reason for saying no?

[pug]

Pug, just a a curious question. How do you look back at the Buddha now? Once your subject (or object) of worship. Who is the Buddha to you now?

 

I was very mis-guided! IF i was a true Buddhist, i should not even worship Buddha. Buddhists do not have a god. They do not worship Gautama Buddha ~ the founder. Buddhism is more a philosophy, way of life ~ a teaching that emphasises they should keep on purifying themselves in this life and re-incarnate and purify some more until they achieve buddhahood, enligtenment, find nirvana. Buddhism, of course, also have denominations with differences ~ from Tibetan to Hinayana to Mahayana to Zen.

 

Unfortunately when Buddhism made its way to China, we Chinese mixed in Taoism and what not including deity worship. IF i was a true Buddhist i should not worship any idols. The Buddha image-idol you see in Siamese temples are only for "focus" as you would see the Jesus the Son in human form on the cross in Catholic churches ~ worshipping of idols NOT needed ~ Buddhism is SELF "purification" based on the 4 noble truths and 8-fold path.

 

Now, i, being a feeble, misguided "genius" mixed it all up too. I used to worship the chinese heaven god, the deities of monkey god and earth god... and a few more in between... not to mention believing in feng shui, horoscopes, fen shui, and so forth.

 

The Buddha to me now is simply a great teacher/philosopher. Like Lao Tze and Confucious.

 

I won't comment further on your reply, if you do reply.

Please comment to your heart's content. I'm here to learn your POV.

 

I have also talked to Christian converts to Buddhism, I asked them how do they look back at Jesus then? I got all sorts of fascinating answers.

I'm just thinking... if Buddhism is not idol worship, is it a religion ~ as it always is classified.

[pug]

Now all you have to do is understand that you can still be Christian and be open to understanding God on a deeper level than a particular version that has been imparted to you through theology.

 

Sorry if this all sounds like a sermon. But, as I've said I've been watching this thread for sometime and you just seemed as if you were looking for something more...

 

THIS is wonderful. There is something more but it is like you said: "understanding God on a deeper level than a particular version that has been imparted to you through theology or knowledge/research"

 

You see God works in amazing ways, He has sent me another teacher. Thanks OM.

[Open_Minded]

But you OM you have put it all down succintly for all to read... what i have been trying to skirt around. I think we can safely add 1.5 halleluyah points to the glorification department?

 

I'm not following you here, pug... what have you been trying to "skirt around"?

 

Also, what do you mean by ... "1.5 halleluyah points to the glorification department"?

 

Just wondering....

 

 

THIS is wonderful. There is something more but it is like you said: "understanding God on a deeper level than a particular version that has been imparted to you through theology or knowledge/research"

 

You see God works in amazing ways, He has sent me another teacher. Thanks OM.

 

Pug, what makes you uncomfortable about the particular version of God, "that has been imparted to you through theology or knowledge/research"? What don't you understand?

[pug]

OM,

 

I'm not following you here, pug... what have you been trying to "skirt around"?

 

The supernatural, un-explainable working of God ~ quite above human reasoning. So far i do not wish to reveal those. I have witnessed an incident when all my church's youth were touched by God (assisted/called upon by a pastor) and they started falling down giggling and laughing while we adult hardened ones just watched. Well, one or two of the adults did eventually succumbed. Now what was that? Some of them said they felt so loved by God. Some commented God was healing their past hurts.

 

Also, what do you mean by ... "1.5 halleluyah points to the glorification department"?

Ah... this is a side joke, jibe at mwc ~ he commented that my posting has zero effect in glorifying God. Well your particitipation may just add 1.5 points in that department. Yeah, sick joke. Please ignore it.

[pug]

...uncomfortable about the particular version of God, "that has been imparted to you through theology or knowledge/research"? What don't you understand?

Can anyone seriously understand the trinity concept? That is above reason ~ God's mystery, a magnificent gift. I've read the many Christianity creeds; lots of rationales on it ~ the essence, the what, the who ~ but most explanations honestly state it is just as God being God. Can man invent such a paradoxical idea?

 

I'm only uncomfortable when so-called true Christians spout and thump the bible and speak as if they are speaking for God.

[mwc]

The supernatural, un-explainable working of God ~ quite above human reasoning. So far i do not wish to reveal those. I have witnessed an incident when all my church's youth were touched by God (assisted/called upon by a pastor) and they started falling down giggling and laughing while we adult hardened ones just watched. Well, one or two of the adults did eventually succumbed. Now what was that? Some of them said they felt so loved by God. Some commented God was healing their past hurts.

 

It's not the best explantion but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roller. I've attended these worship services and it sounds pretty much like what you are saying here. I have to admit it was quite the odd sight to see. Group hypnotic suggestion is very powerful and faith healers, among others, use it to their advantage all the time. Some people will say they're having an experience as you describe and others admit to feeling nothing but "going along with the crowd." It happens outside of religion (any highly charged emotional event will do) as well so it's really nothing special that only "god" can do.

 

mwc

[Asimov]

IF i was a true Buddhist, i should not even worship Buddha. Buddhists do not have a god. They do not worship Gautama Buddha ~ the founder. Buddhism is more a philosophy, way of life ~ a teaching that emphasises they should keep on purifying themselves in this life and re-incarnate and purify some more until they achieve buddhahood, enligtenment, find nirvana.

 

There are some buddhist sects who deify The Buddha, who can say what a "true" buddhist is or isn't. The argument works the same for any belief.

[pug]

mwc,

 

It's not the best explantion but see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roller. I've attended these worship services and it sounds pretty much like what you are saying here. I have to admit it was quite the odd sight to see. Group hypnotic suggestion is very powerful and faith healers, among others, use it to their advantage all the time.

That incident, that particular pastor was not a faith healer ~ he was just going to deliver his sermon. A normal event. One woman started crying and laughing. She (not the pastor) touched one youth; and one by one they started laughing except one ~ but eventually, 30 minutes later, he also collapsed laughing. In the end, the episode lasted over an hour, he had to give up his sermon.

 

Some people will say they're having an experience as you describe and others admit to feeling nothing but "going along with the crowd." It happens outside of religion (any highly charged emotional event will do) as well so it's really nothing special that only "god" can do.

It wasn't a highly charged emotional event at all, that's why it was so odd. Every adult also wished to go along with the youths' joy but i don't think you can force it can you?

 

What about the slaying in spirit? Do you think other gods can do it, on a regular basis? To me it's extraordinary, as you know i'm in the mysterious East, i've witnessed super human episodes when mediums are taken over by spirits ~ fire walking, speaking for the dead, body piercing and so forth.

 

But these are mediums, so no big deal. In church, it's just ordinary folks. A pastor prays and they faint (fall) right away. Sometimes they scream (getting the evil spirits out?), cry or vomit. But the laughing, the first time i've witnessed it ~ well, up till today.

 

And i don't have a point here. Or wish to prove any stuff. Just reporting...

[pug]

IF i was a true Buddhist, i should not even worship Buddha. Buddhists do not have a god. They do not worship Gautama Buddha ~ the founder. Buddhism is more a philosophy, way of life ~ a teaching that emphasises they should keep on purifying themselves in this life and re-incarnate and purify some more until they achieve buddhahood, enligtenment, find nirvana.

 

There are some buddhist sects who deify The Buddha, who can say what a "true" buddhist is or isn't. The argument works the same for any belief.

Agreed. But, specifically for Buddhism, it's do it yourself. No gods to help you along. You are on your own babe.

 

Buddhism has been described as a very pragmatic religion. It does not indulge in metaphysical speculation about first causes; there is no theology, no worship of a deity or deification of the Buddha. Buddhism takes a very straightforward look at our human condition; nothing is based on wishful thinking, at all. Everything that the Buddha taught was based on his own observation of the way things are. Everything that he taught can be verified by our own observation of the way things are.

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/intro_bud.htm

 

Most people have heard of nirvana. It has become equated with a sort of eastern version of heaven. Actually, nirvana simply means cessation. It is the cessation of passion, aggression and ignorance; the cessation of the struggle to prove our existence to the world, to survive. We don't have to struggle to survive after all. We have already survived. We survive now; the struggle was just an extra complication that we added to our lives because we had lost our confidence in the way things are. We no longer need to manipulate things as they are into things as we would like them to be.

 

 

 

Was the Buddha a god?

 

 

No, he was not. He did not claim that he was a god, the child of a god or even the messenger from a god. He was a human being who perfected himself and taught that if we followed his example, we could perfect ourselves also.

 

 

If the Buddha is not a god, then why do people worship him?

 

 

There are different types of worship. When someone worships a god, they praise and honor him or her, make offerings and ask for favors, believing that the god will hear their praise, receive their offerings and answer their prayers. Buddhists do not indulge in this kind of worship. The other kind of worship is when we show respect to someone or something we admire. When a teacher walks into the room we stand up, when we meet a dignitary we shake their hand, when the national anthem is played we salute. These are all gestures of respect and worship and indicate our admiration for certain persons or things. This is the type of worship Buddhists practice. A statue of the Buddha with its hands rested gently in its lap and its compassionate smile reminds us to strive to develop peace and love within ourselves. The perfume of incense reminds us of the pervading influence of virtue, the lamp reminds us of the light of knowledge and the flowers which soon fade and die, remind us of impermanence. When we bow, we express outwardly what we feel inwardly; our gratitude to the Buddha for what his teachings have given us. This is the nature of Buddhist worship

 

 

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda01.htm

[mwc]

What about the slaying in spirit? Do you think other gods can do it, on a regular basis? To me it's extraordinary, as you know i'm in the mysterious East, i've witnessed super human episodes when mediums are taken over by spirits ~ fire walking, speaking for the dead, body piercing and so forth.

 

But these are mediums, so no big deal. In church, it's just ordinary folks. A pastor prays and they faint (fall) right away. Sometimes they scream (getting the evil spirits out?), cry or vomit. But the laughing, the first time i've witnessed it ~ well, up till today.

While all the things you describe are quite amazing I'm sure there is a rational explanation for them since these types of things, as you point out, happen with or with bible god being involved. If this was unique only to xianity you would have some major evidence but since these things happen outside xianity they must have a reasonable explanation. Voodoo and even self-help events share these types of amazing displays and yet I don't think you'd really attibute those things to some supernatural force. Research into some of these things, like body piercing, have already given rational explanations (sorry, I don't have any links handy).

 

mwc