Two Questions for Christians...

[spirit1st]

May be true? But today we have weapons that can destory whole nations.And people who would gladly do it.

Only a matter of time now ,I think? I hope I am wrong.But do not see a future for many on earth?

[SkepticOfBible]

Proof of Lucifer

 

Isaiah 14:12-17

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:  I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Didn't you mention how context is very important in interpretation the bible?

 

Is this really the Devil?

 

Let's see the context

 

Isiah 4-12

 

4That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

 

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

 

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

 

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

 

8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

 

9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

 

10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

 

11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

 

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

 

As the context shows, the passage is aimed at Nebuchadnezza, king of Babylon and is a taunt to be issued to him.

 

The King of Babylon is never said to be satan.

 

Jesus claimed that he was the morning star.

Rev 22:16

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

So does that make him a devil too.

 

Biblegateway Link

Most Bible Commentary would tell you that

 

Lucifer or Nebuchadnezzar? (Christian Commentary Page)

 

Now let's see some passages which identifies Devil as the Bogeyman of god in the OT.

 

The jews definately don't believe in the Devil

 

And incidently many of the other translation don't even mention lucifer. All they say is "Morning Star"

 

Biblegateway

[Fweethawt]

Yes , They grow up? But look at our world.  It is a mess,  But we have raised these young people. Who many have no feeling even for there familys.

Talk to Daniel1012 about this. He believes very "deeply" in the "lesson" taught in Luke 14:26. With the way Christianity has spread, and undermined the intelligence and "morality" of the people, it's no wonder a lot of children are like this.

 

We hear most every  day here in this nation,  of kids killing there  dads and moms.or  putting them away.  with out any feeling.

How often do you hear of the dads and moms killing their children and putting them away? Especially those who do it in the name of God, the Christian God™ to be more precise.

 

Do  you think this world will get better?

I'd very much like to think that it can. I'll just leave it at that for now.

[Cerise]

May be true? But today we have weapons that can destory whole nations.And people who would gladly do it. 

Only a matter of time now ,I think? I hope I am wrong.But do not see a future for many on earth?

 

But you believe this kind of "fatal flaw" in humanity to be part of an ultimate plan by some deity that cannot rightly be explained?

 

Why?

[Fweethawt]

May be true? But today we have weapons that can destory whole nations.And people who would gladly do it. 

This is true. However, the people who would "gladly do it" are usually the ones who think their paper-god wants the world destroyed. So, blame it on the idiots who keep pounding the old Armageddon story into people's heads. If they wouldn't do that, things could possibly make a turn for the better.

 

Only a matter of time now ,I think? I hope I am wrong.But do not see a future for many on earth?

I agree with this to a certain extent.

[Mythra]

spirit1: I think that you have been listening to the christian rhetoric that says that we are in the end times. Some christians read the bible, particularly the book of revelations, and try to equate the imagery and allegorical symbolism contained there with things that are happening today.

 

2,000 years ago, the writers of the books in the new testament talked like it was very near the end. It wasn't.

 

And, it isn't now. 2,000 years from now, humankind will still be here. We don't have the capacity or the will to destroy ourselves or the earth. People will die in wars, there will be hurricanes and tsunamis and earthquakes. But, life, for the most part, will go on like it always has.

 

And, it is my belief that there is no need to watch the clouds for the return of Jesus.

[Fweethawt]

We don't have the capacity or the will to destroy ourselves or the earth.

Please, enlighten me on this. I'd very much like to know how you came to this conclusion.

 

 

I'm serious, Mythra.

No jokin' from me this time.

 

I seem to have come to the understanding that even if this religion spreads across the entire globe and the whole world converts to Christianity, that someone (a devout believer in Christianity) will still have no problem pushing "the button".

[All Gods Fail]

Do you believe in God's existance?  I guess you have to say yes, cause if you don't change your story and say no as you have been, you'll be repeating yourself, which is clearly uncalled for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dan, you are an unintelligent person. I defy anyone to make sense of that reasoning.

 

Let me explain this so even you might understand.

 

1) There is no such thing as god. He didn't make the universe, he didn't create mankind, he didn't flood the world, there was no exodus, no moses, no wandering in the desert for 40 years. None of it happened outside of sheepherder's imaginations.

 

2) Therefore, the bible is a collection of myths and debatable philosophy.

 

3) Quoting from it does not make it true.

 

4) We know better.

 

 

 

On top of all that, why are you so happy about condemning us all to hell? You don't seem to have much love for humans. spirit1st, although also a delusional believer, at least seems to be positive towards people. I get the impression he would actually be upset at the idea of all of us burning in hell, and wouldn't want that to happen. You seem to be gloating about it.

 

And Amanda, whatever she believes (I don't quite understand it), I also get the impression that she genuinely likes other people, and would be glad to lighten anybody's burden if she could. You seem like you'd enjoy strapping an extra 50 pounds on everybody through this forced march we call life.

 

Now I'm putting you on the ignore list so I don't have to read any more of your vain, self-serving preaching.

 

Good luck!

[Razor]

spirit1:  I think that you have been listening to the christian rhetoric that says that we are in the end times.  Some christians read the bible, particularly the book of revelations, and try to equate the imagery and allegorical symbolism contained there with things that are happening today. 

 

2,000 years ago, the writers of the books in the new testament talked like it was very near the end.  It wasn't.

 

And, it isn't now.  2,000 years from now, humankind will still be here.  We don't have the capacity or the will to destroy ourselves or the earth.  People will die in wars, there will be hurricanes and tsunamis and earthquakes.  But, life, for the most part, will go on like it always has.

 

And, it is my belief that there is no need to watch the clouds for the return of Jesus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra,

Most Christians talking about the End times, are referring to the Earth entering the End Age after the Bible Phophecy of the rebirth of the Nation of Israel was full filled in recent Earth History.

 

There is no actual Mention of how long the End age will last however, only God knows the answer to that.

 

Peace

[Asimov]

So daniel...no debate? You don't seem to inclined to have a formal debate with me regarding Evolution and Creationism....what's wrong?

[daniel_1012]

I defy anyone to make sense of that reasoning.

 

I agree, it does defy reasoning. Hence the reason I said it. I'm glad you see that, and I'm sorry you see me as unintelligent considering that you have just confessed the point I was trying to make, without even knowing that you did so. In otherwards, you did exactly what I expected... you confirmed that what was said to me, was illogical. I don't do anything different than any of you when I repeat what I say... It's just that what I am repeating, is a different tune..

 

Myrtha

Yeah. Me too. Hope to (hell) I can get to sleep tonight for worrying about it.

 

This guy must be a salesman for a living. Or a kindergarten teacher.

 

He subscribes to the rules:

1. Tell em.

2. Tell em again.

3. Tell em that you told em.

4. Remind em that you told em that you told em

5. Repeat.

 

Daniel. It's cool. We get it. If we fry in hell, we will never claim that you didn't warn us. You're off the hook.

 

And you're right, quoting from the Bible does not make it true. It is true before I quoted it.

[Fweethawt]

And you're right, quoting from the Bible does not make it true.  It is true before I quoted it.

 

OOooooo! He's got'ya there, Mythra!

 

There just ain't no come-back to that one.

 

It was true before he quoted it.

 

So there!

 

<<<snaps fingers>>>

<<<does the sideways head whip>>>

 

 

 

Daniel, do you really think that the entire Bible is true?

[Razor]

OOooooo! He's got'ya there, Mythra! 

 

There just ain't no come-back to that one.

 

It was true before he quoted it.

 

So there! 

 

<<<snaps fingers>>>

<<<does the sideways head whip>>>

Daniel, do you really think that the entire Bible is true? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes I think the entire Bible is true, so far it is the only book that accurately for tells of comming events.

 

We can never be sure of the time line between those events happening, but the events or phropesy have always come to pass, some are still yet to happen of course.

 

Most Christians believe we have just entered the End Age for life on Earth as we know it, nobody knows how long the end age will be for though, only God knows that, we are on his time table here.

 

Peace

[spirit1st]

You do know?The bible tells us the earth will nevrert end,But be changed one day. And we are creatures of habit,We do not like change very well.We pretty much do the same things,eat the same foods and drink the same drinks.So with this as truth? We would not be changing in life for no reason. People would never ,if they had a choice do some of the very bad things they do.I don"t explain well.But you know like cooking people or eating there babys or other insane things.They do them,because? demons put those thoughts in there minds.No normal person would do such things.In order for a being to do such things? They would have to ,Have there minds taken over.I have smelled dead people. And could not stand the smell.

Now I know we could blame it on God or the things they believe? But I don"t believe that. I believe a force puts these evil thoughts in there minds.And they live them.I have been around lots of people like this.And watched them very close.They are very unstable people.They act sane for a while.Then go nuts.Of course I have had dealings with evil spirits and even satan once.once my boy when about 4 and another little boy ,I took in for about 6 or 61/2 years saw a demon.I saw nothing.But I knew they were not lying!But that another story.I really have enjoyed talking with you.

[mwc]

Here's another long post. I'm looking forward to a nice coherant answer to all this mess. I'm curious on how the eternal law was "fulfilled" by the death and resurrection of Jesus even though Jesus said that the law would be in effect until "heaven and earth pass." I also want to know how Jesus and his disciples, as Jews, could break the law and not be subject to its punishment. I'd thought about creating a new topic but since this thread is talking about this stuff I just thought I'd toss it in here (if it's out of place I'm sure a nice moderator can help me sort this out).

 

Instead of including all the verses I've just put a reference (for anyone interested in looking them up to see proper context) and a quick summary of the verses. So the quotes aren't really quotes in this case but are summaries instead.

 

Matthew 12:1-13

    On the sabbath Jesus and disciples gather corn to eat and are confronted by the Pharisees.  He condemns the Pharisess.  Jesus then heals a man.  He then tells how it is okay to pull a sheep from a ditch on the sabbath.  He sums it all up by saying it is okay to do well on the sabbath.

So according to Jesus it is okay for men to go out and gather food on the sabbath. It is also okay to heal people and rescue a sheep or whatnot. It's nice to know we're at least better than a sheep. So the Pharisees are misreading intentionally, or unintentionally, what can be done on the sabbath.

 

John 5:2-20

    A man crippled man is unable to get into a magic pool that, when an angel stirred it up, would heal any ailment.  Jesus heals the man and tells him to take up his bed and walk.  Too bad the Pharisees declared that carrying your bed on the sabbath is in violation of the law.  Jesus sees the man later and tells him not to sin anymore unless he wanted a worse illness.  The Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy but Jesus says he can't do anything without the Father.  The father uses Jesus to show great works so people can marvel.

Here it appears that there is a healing pool that cures people on a regular basis. Apparently angels can work miracles too. It's kind of sad that not only did anyone outside the bible mention this pool but that this powerful healing device has apparently disappeared.

 

So then Jesus cures a guy and the guy carries his bedding. It would appear that these too are violations of the sabbath as improperly interpreted by the Pharisees. Jesus warns the guy to not sin since Jesus believes illness is caused by sinning.

 

Jesus also falsely states that he has no power but only the father has powers. Why didn't Jesus know he was god too and that god has powers? Isn't part of the definition of god is that he is all powerful? Oh well. It's one of those great mysteries that can't be explained since to explain it would somehow destroy god since explaining, understanding and having some sort of proof of god seems to hurt and kill him...or some such irrational bullshit.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

So I guess Jesus didn't alter any of the OT rules that were given about the sabbath after all. There was only tons of ambiguity about what people could and could not do and the priests took advantage of this situation for their own gain.

 

Oh, what the heck, lets look at a few verses from the OT just for fun. Even if I'm wrong I like to show the details. I know it's a little boring just to confirm what we already know but bear with me.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

Exodus 16:22-30

    Moses and the Israelites gathered twice as much food on the sixth day.  Everyone was to bake up their food since the sabbath was the next day and they couldn't gather or bake on that day.  Some people did go out on the sabbath and YHWH asked Moses how long they were going to keep breaking his laws.  People are to only rest and not go out on the sabbath.

So there you have it. Jesus was right and his dad agrees with him here. But wait. No. Actually you are not to gather food on the sabbath. In fact daddy god wants you to pretty much stay home and do nothing on the sabbath. Apparently it is a violation of the commandment to gather food on the sabbath and this is by daddy god's own mouth.

 

Exodus 31:12-17

    YHWH tells Moses to tell the Israelites to keep the sabbath.  The sabbath is a sign between YHWH and the Israelites throughout their generations (all time).  Working on the sabbath is punishable by death.  YHWH says that this is a perpetual covenant.  He finishes by explaining how he made everything in six days and rested on the seventh (and was refreshed).

Well this is interesting. Daddy god says here that the sabbath must be kept for all time. Of course he's only referring to Jews though so that lets Jesus and followers off the hook. Whew. For a second I thought that Jesus was going to be at risk of being cut off and put to death for not keeping his own daddy's word.

 

But, darn the luck. Jesus was born of a real live Jewish famale and that makes him a real Jew. In fact I think most of his disciples would be Jews also. That means that they're bound by this very law. Baby god and his pals can't be exempted because no exemptions are listed for that situation. Daddy god can't change his mind so all Jews are bound by this for all time.

 

Numbers 15:32-36

    Some Israelites found a guy gathering sticks on the sabbath.  They take him to Moses, Aaron and the entire congregation to see what should be done to him.  YHWH tells Moses that the man should be put to death.  YHWH declares stoning to be the method of execution.  So everyone went out and stoned the man who gathered the sticks.

I've moved to Numbers since maybe it's just Exodus where there's some confusion as to what daddy god really wants. Surely, Moses and the rest misunderstood old god and he really wanted a more relative approach to his laws. So a guy gathers some sticks and is taken before Moses. He isn't simply killed so the group from Exodus obviously did misunderstand what god really wanted and have lightened up. Gathering sticks can't be a violation of the law and therefore they need to have a meeting to determine the just punishment based on what daddy god really intended.

 

So, daddy god, tells Moses that gathering sticks isn't a violation and the man is let go but admonished to keep the sabbath in the future. At least that's what should have happened if Jesus, from Matthew, would have spoke to Moses. Here we have daddy god, in no uncertain terms, order the man put to death for gathering sticks. He is stoned and is killed. As Moses and the priests (and later the Pharisees from the story in Matthew) selfishly misinterpreted the law for themselves? Nope. As GOD himself commanded them to do in compliance with his laws.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

So it appears I was wrong. Jesus didn't get it right. God left no room for error in his laws. A simple, and minor, violation got you killed in short order. I can't imagine why anyone would possibly be very uptight with these rules with that penalty hanging over your head. I can't imagine anyone being absolutely terrified into the most strict interpretation of all the laws under these circumstances.

 

Yet, Jesus says they got it all wrong. He says that there is relatavism built into the laws. Apparently Jesus didn't get the memo from daddy stating that death is the proper punishment for any violation of this (and most other) laws. Jesus himself,

as a Jew, violated his own rule. His followers violated his own rule. The Pharisees did not. Jesus and his followers put themselves above the law. The Pharisees were obligated to uphold the law by daddy god (and by extension little baby god Jesus). The Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong.

 

Jesus was bound by his own laws as a Jew and a human. Let's look at a couple more verses.

 

Matthew 5:17-20

    Jesus declares that he is not here to destroy the law or the prophets but to fulfil.  Jesus further explains that the law will be unchanged until "heaven and earth pass" until all is fulfilled.  Anyone who breaks even the least commandment, and teaches other the same, will be called the least in heaven and vice-versa.

So there we go. Jesus did not come to destroy the law until it is fulfilled. Exactly how it can be 'fulfilled' I'm not quite sure. Jesus seems to say the laws end at the end of time when "heaven and earth pass." If he, like xians seem to think, means all the laws go away if someone keeps them perfectly then it's pretty obvious he didn't get the memo from old dad. Dad says those laws are a "perpetual covenant" and as such

cannot be ended.

 

If you want to try to misinterpret what daddy god said then we'll go by baby god here. He says all laws are in effect until he fulfills them. He either fulfilled them during the death and resurection or he will fulfill them upon his supposed return. Either way the laws are in full effect when he and his minions violate them. They should have all been put to death right then. If anything the Pharisees were quite liberal in the way they dealt with the law and baby god still tells them they're too strict. By his own words he and his followers should at least be considered the least in heaven for violating and teaching this strange interpretation of the law.

 

Ephesians 2:14-16

    Paul tells the Ephesians that Jesus fulfilled, and destroyed, the law through the death and resurrection.

Okay, so it appears that Paul tells the Ephesians that the laws are abolished so we know it was the whole death and resurrection thing that accomplished this. This is in spite of what Jesus said that the laws would last until "heaven and earth pass."

 

So apparently the definition of "throughout their generations" and "perpetual covenant" are magically redefined by what baby god supposedly did. Apparently the idea of perpetual that I, the dictionary, and pretty much everyone understand to be "never ending or changing" is suddenly redefined to mean ended altogether.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

Of course abolishing something that is never ending and unchanging is not really a contradiction is it? I mean something can be both unending and ended can't it? The perfect and unchanging "god" can declare laws that will last forever and then abolish those same laws a scant thousand or so years later without any contradiction whatsoever, right?

 

Making eternal laws that end makes perfect sense to "god." Making deals that can be altered, or negated later, makes perfect sense to "god" and in no way shows a lack of perfection on his part. He is perfect and unchanging so he can't change his mind. He must have fully intended to end the never ending laws before he even gave them to Moses.

 

This is in perfect harmony with what "god" is. It's our own fault that we misunderstood all the times he told us they were never ending and unchangable. We should have taken perpetual to mean a thousand years or so. Damn us and are stupid inability to understand what "god" tells us perfectly in our very own language ("our language" as in the primary language of the people he was giving this perfect information to in a perfect way).

 

I imagine that all the xians here will dig right into their bibles (meaning apologist books and websites) and explain everything all nice and neat wrapped in a little bow for me. Yes, I am being sarcastic but it would be nice, for once, to see an actual rational explanation to these contradictions instead of the usual excuses and junk answers. I can tell you not to bother with the old "you must believe before you can understand" and all its variations. I did understand it when I believed. It's so easy to "understand" something you don't question and never think about (at least critically and this contradiction never even made my radar as the book was supposed to be perfect and to question a sin...not that I would have even thought to question "god" then).

 

mwc

[daniel_1012]

OOooooo! He's got'ya there, Mythra! 

 

There just ain't no come-back to that one.

 

It was true before he quoted it.

 

So there! 

 

<<<snaps fingers>>>

<<<does the sideways head whip>>>

Daniel, do you really think that the entire Bible is true? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you really think everything someone tells you that combats that legitimacy of Christianity is true?

 

Yes, I believe the Bible is a carbon copy of the truth, though the Bible itself is not the truth... it is the shadow of the truth, and we go to it for the shape of God.

[spirit1st]

Can I explain something?

You see JESUS CHRIST had to live in faith and suffer as we do.Then we could follow HIm,knowing he has felt everything we do.Worse I would say?

But when we accept HIm as LORD .Then the HOLY GHOST causes us to be new creatures,in our spirits.You know!GOD is a spirit.We can not see a spirit.

But once this takes place in us.We are not of this world.Nor are we under the laws given before or now.But we are trapped in these dumb bodys.That sin and get sick .And always want something.GOD COULD NOT SAVE MAN KIND.Man was a lost cause.Which we see?Because every person dies and returns to the dirt it was made from.So ,What did HE die for?Our inner man.Our spirits.These never die.But they too are affected by sin.So they had too be changed.Once we accept HIm as LORD.By the way?By accepting HIm as LORD.We are saying?You can rule my body and my life!

Not many really ever do this.So with this new birth,we become JUST LIKE HIM.perfect with out sin.And HE keeps us sin less forever more.

Now don"t confuse this with the mind or the body.Because both can sin.But of course we will shed the body.And recieve a perfect body also.But the mind,which is our soul.It must be changed .Because it is programed for this world! But must take on HIS way of thinking,to understand the things of GOD.Now we need no person on earth for this!He has given ,HIS very spirit too those willing too accept hIm as LORD .Because HE also wanted kids.This is why HE made these new creatures.As you know!We are born of GOd.By HIS own spirits.These things make no sense in our natural thinking.Because they are of GOD.But I know?Some here understand this!

AS far as the law.He said HE put it in our hearts ,how too live.The sabbath was saturday,But we are not to pick a certain day for the LORD.But every day is His .He says .If a person trys to keep the law?That person must keep every one.But no person except the LORD could do this.So we live by GRACE and in faith!rulers love the law.They can keep the people in bondage.HE came to give us 100% freedom.I live in freedom.I am bound by nothing ,except LOVE.Because LOVE covers all the law.We even the worse on earth?Want love and too give love.Because we were made by love ,to love.

[Razor]

Here's another long post.  I'm looking forward to a nice coherant answer to all this mess.   I'm curious on how the eternal law was "fulfilled" by the death and resurrection of Jesus even though Jesus said that the law would be in effect until "heaven and earth pass."  I also want to know how Jesus and his disciples, as Jews, could break the law and not be subject to its punishment.  I'd thought about creating a new topic but since this thread is talking about this stuff I just thought I'd toss it in here (if it's out of place I'm sure a nice moderator can help me sort this out).

 

    Instead of including all the verses I've just put a reference (for anyone interested in looking them up to see proper context) and a quick summary of the verses.  So the quotes aren't really quotes in this case but are summaries instead.

So according to Jesus it is okay for men to go out and gather food on the sabbath.  It is also okay to heal people and rescue a sheep or whatnot. It's nice to know we're at least better than a sheep.  So the Pharisees are misreading intentionally, or unintentionally, what can be done on the sabbath.

Here it appears that there is a healing pool that cures people on a regular basis.  Apparently angels can work miracles too.  It's kind of sad that not only did anyone outside the bible mention this pool but that this powerful healing device has apparently disappeared.

 

So then Jesus cures a guy and the guy carries his bedding.  It would appear that these too are violations of the sabbath as improperly interpreted by the Pharisees.  Jesus warns the guy to not sin since Jesus believes illness is caused by sinning.

 

Jesus also falsely states that he has no power but only the father has powers.  Why didn't Jesus know he was god too and that god has powers?  Isn't part of the definition of god is that he is all powerful?  Oh well.  It's one of those great mysteries that can't be explained since to explain it would somehow destroy god since explaining, understanding and having some sort of proof of god seems to hurt and kill him...or some such irrational bullshit.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

      So I guess Jesus didn't alter any of the OT rules that were given about the sabbath after all.  There was only tons of ambiguity about what people could and could not do and the priests took advantage of this situation for their own gain.

 

    Oh, what the heck, lets look at a few verses from the OT just for fun.  Even if I'm wrong I like to show the details.  I know it's a little boring just to confirm what we already know but bear with me.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So there you have it.  Jesus was right and his dad agrees with him here.  But wait.  No.  Actually you are not to gather food on the sabbath.  In fact daddy god wants you to pretty much stay home and do nothing on the sabbath.  Apparently it is a violation of the commandment to gather food on the sabbath and this is by daddy god's own mouth.

Well this is interesting.  Daddy god says here that the sabbath must be kept for all time.  Of course he's only referring to Jews though so that lets Jesus and followers off the hook.  Whew.  For a second I thought that Jesus was going to be at risk of being cut off and put to death for not keeping his own daddy's word.

 

But, darn the luck.  Jesus was born of a real live Jewish famale and that makes him a real Jew.  In fact I think most of his disciples would be Jews also.  That means that they're bound by this very law.  Baby god and his pals can't be exempted because no exemptions are listed for that situation.  Daddy god can't change his mind so all Jews are bound by this for all time.

I've moved to Numbers since maybe it's just Exodus where there's some confusion as to what daddy god really wants.  Surely, Moses and the rest misunderstood old god and he really wanted a more relative approach to his laws.  So a guy gathers some sticks and is taken before Moses.  He isn't simply killed so the group from Exodus obviously did misunderstand what god really wanted and have lightened up.  Gathering sticks can't be a violation of the law and therefore they need to have a meeting to determine the just punishment based on what daddy god really intended.

 

So, daddy god, tells Moses that gathering sticks isn't a violation and the man is let go but admonished to keep the sabbath in the future.  At least that's what should have happened if Jesus, from Matthew, would have spoke to Moses.  Here we have daddy god, in no uncertain terms, order the man put to death for gathering sticks.  He is stoned and is killed.  As Moses and the priests (and later the Pharisees from the story in Matthew) selfishly misinterpreted the law for themselves?  Nope.  As GOD himself commanded them to do in compliance with his laws.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

    So it appears I was wrong.  Jesus didn't get it right.  God left no room for error in his laws.  A simple, and minor, violation got you killed in short order.  I can't imagine why anyone would possibly be very uptight with these rules with that penalty hanging over your head.  I can't imagine anyone being absolutely terrified into the most strict interpretation of all the laws under these circumstances.

 

    Yet, Jesus says they got it all wrong.  He says that there is relatavism built into the laws.  Apparently Jesus didn't get the memo from daddy stating that death is the proper punishment for any violation of this (and most other) laws.  Jesus himself,

as a Jew, violated his own rule.  His followers violated his own rule.  The Pharisees did not.  Jesus and his followers put themselves above the law.  The Pharisees were obligated to uphold the law by daddy god (and by extension little baby god Jesus).  The Pharisees were right and Jesus was wrong.

 

    Jesus was bound by his own laws as a Jew and a human.  Let's look at a couple more verses.

So there we go.  Jesus did not come to destroy the law until it is fulfilled.  Exactly how it can be 'fulfilled' I'm not quite sure.  Jesus seems to say the laws end at the end of time when "heaven and earth pass."  If he, like xians seem to think, means all the laws go away if someone keeps them perfectly then it's pretty obvious he didn't get the memo from old dad.  Dad says those laws are a "perpetual covenant" and as such

cannot be ended.

 

    If you want to try to misinterpret what daddy god said then we'll go by baby god here.  He says all laws are in effect until he fulfills them.  He either fulfilled them during the death and resurection or he will fulfill them upon his supposed return.  Either way the laws are in full effect when he and his minions violate them.  They should have all been put to death right then.  If anything the Pharisees were quite liberal in the way they dealt with the law and baby god still tells them they're too strict.  By his own words he and his followers should at least be considered the least in heaven for violating and teaching this strange interpretation of the law.

Okay, so it appears that Paul tells the Ephesians that the laws are abolished so we know it was the whole death and resurrection thing that accomplished this.  This is in spite of what Jesus said that the laws would last until "heaven and earth pass."

 

    So apparently the definition of "throughout their generations" and "perpetual covenant" are magically redefined by what baby god supposedly did.  Apparently the idea of perpetual that I, the dictionary, and pretty much everyone understand to be "never ending or changing" is suddenly redefined to mean ended altogether.

 

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

 

    Of course abolishing something that is never ending and unchanging is not really a contradiction is it?  I mean something can be both unending and ended can't it?  The perfect and unchanging "god" can declare laws that will last forever and then abolish those same laws a scant thousand or so years later without any contradiction whatsoever, right?

 

    Making eternal laws that end makes perfect sense to "god."  Making deals that can be altered, or negated later, makes perfect sense to "god" and in no way shows a lack of perfection on his part.  He is perfect and unchanging so he can't change his mind.  He must have fully intended to end the never ending laws before he even gave them to Moses.

 

    This is in perfect harmony with what "god" is.  It's our own fault that we misunderstood all the times he told us they were never ending and unchangable.  We should have taken perpetual to mean a thousand years or so.  Damn us and are stupid inability to understand what "god" tells us perfectly in our very own language ("our language" as in the primary language of the people he was giving this perfect information to in a perfect way).

 

    I imagine that all the xians here will dig right into their bibles (meaning apologist books and websites) and explain everything all nice and neat wrapped in a little bow for me.  Yes, I am being sarcastic but it would be nice, for once, to see an actual rational explanation to these contradictions instead of the usual excuses and junk answers.  I can tell you not to bother with the old "you must believe before you can understand" and all its variations.  I did understand it when I believed.  It's so easy to "understand" something you don't question and never think about (at least critically and this contradiction never even made my radar as the book was supposed to be perfect and to question a sin...not that I would have even thought to question "god" then).

 

    mwc

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are not meant to understand the Bible, if you where then you would be able too.

 

The Bible warns us not to lean on our own understanding of the Scriptures.

Even Theologians cannot agree on many things, because they are only human and not perfect.

 

The Core message of the Gospel is simple to understand however.

 

Jesus said I am the Alpha and the Omega!

 

He is the new begining and end of it all, his name is the only name under Heaven by which men shall be saved.

 

Arguement outside of that is designed to side track you away from Jesus

 

Peace

[Saviourmachine]

Slaves should submit to their masters, or perhaps you don't grasp the context of this.  ... I don't think it is anymore unfair than working for someone your entire life so that you can get paid, eat, and whatever else you want to do.

I guess you don't see any essential difference in this because "freedom of choice" or the philosophical variant "free will" can not be found in your dictionay. Don't you consider freedom to choose a job, freedom to choose an employer as a right?

[Saviourmachine]

The Bible warns us not to lean on our own understanding of the Scriptures.

I am only here to help people to investigate things on their own. When some Egyptian sticks to his holy piramid texts and don't want to use his brain - if there is a danger that he'll be sidetracked from his faith - a priori, I am clueless. If you want to experience that feeling, just start debating another faith like Islam. Try to assure them of the discrepancies in their book. After a few days you will understand the feeling I have regarding you. Cheers.

[daniel_1012]

I guess you don't see any essential difference in this because "freedom of choice" or the philosophical variant "free will" can not be found in your dictionay. Don't you consider freedom to choose a job, freedom to choose an employer as a right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe that's a freedom for you in America. Even for some in America though, we find options seemingly narrow. Some men seem made to work a 9-5 at BK. Many in the workforce have called themselves slaves. Life is painful in each one of our worlds. Slavery in America just has a different name, IMO... it's established by classes we have in society that cannot be denied -- we have rich, we have poor... and we accept this just as they accepted it in Bible times. Things were different in those day, and today's slavery very well may be considered working for BK all your life, paycheck to paycheck. Men do this, and God offers them eternal salvation. He offers it to you to.

 

Jesus said, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

[Amethyst]

Master / slave relationship the same as employee / employer?

 

Hey, it has been in some of my temp jobs. We even had to ask permission to go to the bathroom.

[crazy-tiger]

You are not meant to understand the Bible, if you where then you would be able too.

 

The Bible warns us not to lean on our own understanding of the Scriptures.

Ok...

Even Theologians cannot agree on many things, because they are only human and not perfect.

 

The Core message of the Gospel is simple to understand however.

 

Jesus said I am the Alpha and the Omega!

 

He is the new begining and end of it all, his name is the only name under Heaven by which men shall be saved.

 

Arguement outside of that is designed to side track you away from Jesus

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But that just happens to be your own understanding of the scriptures...

 

 

 

 

You mind telling us why you're berating us for doing exactly the same as you?

[Vixentrox]

Yes I think the entire Bible is true, so far it is the only book that accurately for tells of comming events.

 

We can never be sure of the time line between those events happening, but the events or phropesy have always come to pass, some are still yet to happen of course.

 

Most Christians believe we have just entered the End Age for life on Earth as we know it, nobody knows how long the end age will be for though, only God knows that, we are on his time table here.

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lots of people think Nostrodamus prophecies are true...

[Mythra]

Please, enlighten me on this. I'd very much like to know how you came to this conclusion.

I'm serious, Mythra.

No jokin' from me this time.

 

I seem to have come to the understanding that even if this religion spreads across the entire globe and the whole world converts to Christianity, that someone (a devout believer in Christianity) will still have no problem pushing "the button".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh, I never said that no one would ever push the button. I'm saying that pushing the button will not destroy the world. Let's say that Pakistan and India got into a nuclear war right now. There would probably be hundreds of millions of people killed. Possibly even a billion. But that would not destroy the world or all of humankind.

 

Nagasaki and Hiroshima today are proof of that.

 

And, if anything, I see a stepping down of the nuclear threat right now. With the obvious exception of North Korea. With the fall of the iron curtain, much of the rhetoric has died down.

 

But, I could be wrong about these things.