Two Questions for Christians...

[Ouroboros]

If you can't base your faith and beliefs on your life experiences, then what else is left that you can base it on? The bottom line is, your life, and your life experiences is all that you have. Everything else is in the mind.

 

On the contrary, only a person in his "right mind" can explain it. Wishful thinking is irrelevant.

 

Nothing can change reality. It just is. Nothing can make a God nonexistent if it's truly there, just the same as nothing can make a God exist if it doesn't.

So very true.

[Amanda]

Two Questions for Christians...

Consider the following.

 

Often answered, when asked, a Christian will tell you that in heaven you will spend your time glorifying and praising god and then I often wonder, how is that any different then spending all your time praising and glorifying God on Earth? When a Christian says that they feel that God is with them all the time, again, how is that any different than being in heaven and feeling the same here on Earth?

 

Conversely when asked about hell, the Christian will tell you that in hell you are without God. (So, God is not in all things and not omnipotent.)  Yet, on Earth, we are told that we can be close to God by following the Bible and believing in Jesus, otherwise we are without God. What about a baby without any beliefs? Are they languoring hell? Remember, a belief in Jesus is necessary. Newborns, toddlers, do not have beliefs. Taking the argument at face value, it is safe to assume that in fact, newborns or toddlers, are presently in Hell. Am I in Hell, right now, because I do not belive in God/Jesus?

 

Now here’s a kicker and an additional question. Can I be in Hell (the physical burning eternal part of it) and still believe in God and Jesus?

 

What I would like from the Christian here is to harmonize these contradictions.

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Hello Quicksand!

 

Pardon me, as I have not read the entire thread yet. It seems to be a great question for a topic!

 

I believe that basically, heaven and hell are within us. Heaven is created when one lives with a devotion to respecting and honoring life, including one's own (the Christ nature); and hell is created by the opposite.

 

And yes you can be in 'hell' and still believe in God and Jesus, IMO, because faith without actions is dead. But no one is going to hell for ALL times.

 

My $.02, fwiw.

[Guest dastywoo]

Your brothers in the Lord spoiled it. I don't trust you or any Christian that comes to this site anymore. 99% of them have been trolls, and you could be just one more.

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As someone who considers himself "Christian", I'm comfortable saying this: Christians are assholes!

 

Sorry for all my asshole brethren...

Peace!

[quicksand]

And yes you can be in 'hell' and still believe in God and Jesus, IMO, because faith without actions is dead. But no one is going to hell for ALL times.

Well, Hell is only temporary? Is it even temporary for the believer languishing in hell as it is just as temporary for the non-believer too?

 

IF that's the case, what does it matter what I do or what I believe? To avoid torture? Nah, sorry, belief doesnt work that way.

[Amethyst]

And yes you can be in 'hell' and still believe in God and Jesus, IMO, because faith without actions is dead. But no one is going to hell for ALL times.

 

Then why make hell in the first place? It's supposed to be the scare tactic to get people to believe. If it's a temporary state, why create it at all? Why not let people learn from their mistakes while they're alive (or even in other lives, which goes against Christian teachings)?

[pug]

Oh yeah? Well, I'm a mouse, and I eat pussy! 

 

Waitaminute...

 

Wrong thread. Sorry. 

 

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YEAHHH? I'm a dog and I also enjoy feasting on a pussy once in a while.

 

[pug]

Pug, is that you? You sure sound like Pug.

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Nahhh.

 

Errrr... how can I prove that i'm not dave?

 

Believeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee?

[pug]

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Hi Pug... hey excellent post! Lot of meat to chew on and you’ve tried to answer the questions before you, and with humor too. Cool.

Is this bait? ha ha but ok i bite.

 

Well, first off, the question of whether or not the soul , that is your sum of your personality (foibles, faults included) will either extinguish or survive after physical death is a great question in itself, but not really central or important to the two or three question I asked above. It’s called a gimme, (a vehicle to further the debate) however, successful arguments against the immortal soul prove that there can be no heaven or hell waiting for you after death.

Proof? You have proof of hell or heaven?

 

So I won’t really delve too much into your quote above, but you should be aware that in all ways your physical body does define who you are. In all ways your faults contrast the highlights of your persona. Remove one and a person becomes a house of cards.

Yeah the physical body dies. Your soul goes to a "possible" heaven, you get a new body (don't know what kind) and you suffer no longer. Ahhh... that's the "theory".

 

But when you pray, are you not in heaven and at those time when you feel closest to god? If so, then what is the difference?

No bloody way! God have mercy on me! Does that sound like Heaven? I'm asking Him to help me in my life. Oh ok, maybe when I pray, "In the name of Jesus, I command you to leave this room"... wait a minute, that's not heavenly either, more like power. Hmmmm...

 

The answer to your question if right from another Christian’s mouth. Hell and heaven exists regardless of what I choose or not choose to believe in. The question is I believe in God/Jesus right, but go to hell. If I am in hell and still feel god is with me, then how can that be hell? Have fun with that one there Pugmeister.

Ummm... god will not be with you in hell. Yeah, He did visit hell ~ but you will only wish HE'S WITH YOU. Errr whether hell or heven exists or not is irrelevant (to you).

 

Anyways, Christians have such a masochistic side. Well, then I guess they’ll enjoy their eternal suffering then, but, heck if they enjoy it so much is it really suffering? He he.

ha ha serious fun i guess. So masochistic, we are aren't we?

 

Well, very true in the first part. You’re a pretty liberal Christian up there, which is cool by me. However, you’ve exposed your flank as you have no reliable way to establish what is exactly God’s word or what is innovation by humankind. We, the skeptics, (including evey you - Pug) will tell you all you can do is special plead for whatever position you choose to advance.

Exposed my flank? Hee hee... well now, what huh? i do not choose to advance any theory or prove any thing. Troll remember? You folks already know every thing there is possibly to know; you've heard all the circular logic; excuses; gymnastics; ooooh no need for me, a mere rookie, to defend my god luuuuu.

For instance, take the religious right. To them, god and Jesus is the god of Constantine - a god of war and retribution. They, like Robertson and esp. Farwell (google it up) will tell you that war is Biblically justified. Liberal Christians like yourself will say that no Jesus was all about compassion and God is a caretaker of humanity and not the parental punisher of the right.

Woweee, new label for me. Liberal. Hey, thanks. Ok, can pin that to troll, rookie (plus retard, fake, fuck, bastard, oooh... what else). You are almost christ-like.

 

So who is right? You don’t have to anwser that directly, but something to consider. The Bible is a horrible way to figure these issues out. As fiction, as allegorical its fine to discuss, but to say that something is biblically justified is ludicrous and preposterous.

Yep... the bible... ummm... ok i'll be going to another (yes, another) bible class this friday. Sure will kick up a storm there. Read a link earlier about god being this and that... will quote thaaaat as well. Will you pray that i won't get kicked out?

 

Really? How do you make this distinction? From where do you base this assumption on that babies are special category?

Wild speculation!!! What else? Well, they are born sinners but not old enough to understand the gospel.... so god gives them a baby chance.

 

Here’s a kick in the ribs for you. If babies go to heaven, welcomed by Jesus, society better start killing their children before they get old enough to sin , you know. Concerned parents should kill their children before they can well disobey them (OT law and a SIN) . Andrea Yates should be out of prison for the murder of her sons and we as a Christian soceity should lionizer her as model of perfect parenting.

Yeah, yeah. But un-believers won't. And believers will? EeeeeKkkk! Don't know. Some people say the good die young. OK kill, kill. Wait a minute, they must die naturally. No cheating. Really, quicksand, i don't know.

 

Well never mind all that.

So, Pug you are in hell then? Right now you are in hell. If I kick you the nuts and it hurts are you going to tell me it only ”feels” like it and therefore the paint doesn’t really ”exist?” Your making a preposterous argument here.

You're turning it round to suit your understanding of what i want to say. You know what i mean! So, never mind.

 

On the issue of purgatory, a priest was opining in the paper the other day that purgatory is place where ALL people get cleaned up before going to the robotic assembly line of praise and devotion to God up thar in heaven. Anyway, if that is really the case, then what does it matter what I do or what I believe here on Earth? Eh? Hell is definitely unnecessary and irrelevant.

Nobody knows. no proof, remember?

 

Your describing an evil demon Pugmiester, not a loving being that by definition is all loving being all powerful. Well, your point is really irrelevant. Do you read Dante much?

Maybe He's loving when He wants to? Maybe He chooses people? Not sure. No I don't read much. I'm a big TV watching couch potato ~ whenever i can. But tuesdays (tonight, 8:30pm) is.... aaaahhh... no need to guess... hee hee.

 

That’s too bad you feel that way however, you do not sound like a person that is really “alive”. Wow, everyday for me is a quantity that I can not adequately qualify. Your waiting for a life to live after your dead. I live it now. I start today and everyday. I live to live and it seems to be that those of the afterlife variety are living to die.

Oh i'm sorry. Do i not sound alive? Must be the sombre feeling i get in this forum. And where did i tell you i'm waiting to live a better life? Sheeesh.

 

OK quicksand, enjoy living your exciting life. Thanks for your thoughtful replies to my post.

 

[Guest queen annie]

I read my comment again, and I hope it makes sense. It's not really a complicated thought, but a bit tricky to explain. It is a valid question. Was I an atheist as a Christian, and now I'm a believer while I'm atheist? I need a Christian to give me a straight answer, and I'm sure they will take either side and argue against the other. Just because the Bible supports this paradox, and no one knows which foot to stand on. 

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Oddly enough, I had a thought of essentially the same nature about an hour earlier while reading some of the posts on this forum. It wasn't quite to the verbal state where I could articulate it--and it's kind of a hard saying, isn't it?

 

I think it has merit and might perhaps be somehow profound if examined (on a clear day with minimal cloud coverage, that is.)

 

[Amanda]

Well, Hell is only temporary? Is it even temporary for the believer languishing in hell as it is just as temporary for the non-believer too?

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How temporary depends on us. We may struggle to get to our next spiritual level, or we may struggle with a disrespectful characteristic in our own life. Both can be challenging, yet 'hell' is a way to motivate us to overcome it.

 

It's searching for the way out of hell into this heaven/nirvana/whatever, these dynamics keeps everyone guided to the same basic destination, IMO, FWIW.

IF that's the case, what does it matter what I do or what I believe? To avoid torture? Nah, sorry, belief doesnt work that way.

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No, it does matter how we believe! Beliefs are the motivating force of our actions. IF we believe that 'stealing' is a good way to get ahead, we will receive the judgement of hell for it, until we decide not to do that any more! There are these principles in the Bible that guide us out of hell and into heaven... yet one does not need the Bible to do so. It is NOT by our 'labels' that we enter heaven, it is by who we have come to be... and we know who they are by their actions.

[daniel_1012]

Hello Quicksand!

 

Pardon me, as I have not read the entire thread yet. It seems to be a great question for a topic!

 

I believe that basically, heaven and hell are within us. Heaven is created when one lives with a devotion to respecting and honoring life, including one's own (the Christ nature); and hell is created by the opposite.

 

And yes you can be in 'hell' and still believe in God and Jesus, IMO, because faith without actions is dead. But no one is going to hell for ALL times.

 

My $.02, fwiw.

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Amanda,

 

I believe Paul would, quite directly write:

 

Galatians 6:10

 

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--

7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!

9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

 

Case in point, note the "eternally" condemned part. That is eternally; forever; without end; always; never ceasing. Are there other way to say it? I'm sure there are, but they mean the same thing. Your beliefs, are quite unchristian, and it certainly is not the Gospel of my Lord Jesus Christ, who was sent to die for the sins of the world.

 

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

 

You seem so concerned with "respecting" men, you, if you actually convince them of your belief, give them no gospel at all. If these are truly your beliefs, as they are what I have observed and remained silent so that I may learn what it is... truly, it is no gospel, and it isn't Christian. I'm not sure what it is.

 

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servent of Christ.

 

Stop trying to please them, because even if with your philosophy you present here you do please them... which I can certainly fathom. You have pleased them with a lie, which will benefit them nothing at all.

[All Gods Fail]

You seem so concerned with "respecting" men, you, if you actually convince them of your belief, give them no gospel at all.  If these are truly your beliefs, as they are what I have observed and remained silent so that I may learn what it is... truly, it is no gospel, and it isn't Christian.  I'm not sure what it is.

 

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God?  Or am I trying to please men?  If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servent of Christ.

 

Stop trying to please them, because even if with your philosophy you present here you do please them... which I can certainly fathom.  You have pleased them with a lie, which will benefit them nothing at all.

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Is there a biblical difference between trying to 'please' people and being 'respectful'? Is it the same thing? She hasn't pleased me with any of her 'lies', because (all due respect, Amanda) I don't believe her kinder version of xtianity anymore than I believe yours. I'm not worried about hell - it isn't real, anymore than the great flood or the exodus was real.

 

I'm not worried about Vallhalla or pissing off the Fates, either. None of it is anything more than stories.

 

At any rate, you should be paying closer attention to the bible, you hypocrite:

 

Acts 17: 32-34

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter. 33 So Paul departed from among them.

 

Paul knew when to make his exit. (Hint hint.)

 

Shake out the dust of your Thom Mchanns against us and go preach the gospel like Paul told you to. We've all heard it before, and much better, too. Remember the name of this website? EX-Christians? Meaning we used to believe and now we don't? Think about it.

[daniel_1012]

Is there a biblical difference between trying to 'please' people and being 'respectful'? Is it the same thing? She hasn't pleased me with any of her 'lies', because (all due respect, Amanda) I don't believe her kinder version of xtianity anymore than I believe yours. I'm not worried about hell - it isn't real, anymore than the great flood or the exodus was real.

 

I'm not worried about Vallhalla or pissing off the Fates, either. None of it is anything more than stories.

 

At any rate, you should be paying closer attention to the bible, you hypocrite:

Paul knew when to make his exit. (Hint hint.)

 

Shake out the dust of your Thom Mchanns against us and go preach the gospel like Paul told you to. We've all heard it before, and much better, too. Remember the name of this website? EX-Christians? Meaning we used to believe and now we don't? Think about it.

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Hell is real, and your disbelief in it doesn't make it go away. Just because *you* say its time to "shake the dust off" and go, does not mean that it is. I'm fully aware that many of the people here are professing ex-christians. Should I change the truth for you then?

[Asimov]

Hell is real, and your disbelief in it doesn't make it go away.  Just because *you* say its time to "shake the dust off" and go, does not mean that it is.  I'm fully aware that many of the people here are professing ex-christians.  Should I change the truth for you then?

 

Hell is not real and your adamant statements that it is doesn't make it real.

[daniel_1012]

Who's hell is real, Daniel?  Allah's?  Zoroaster's?  Egyptians Gods?  Greek Gods?  Roman God?  BTW...Apparently the writers of Genesis-Malachi, weren't aware of this place of eternal torment as it is strangely absent.  Besides, who would want to worship such a pathetic and immoral god that would hurt people eternally for his fuck-ups?

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God's.

[Asimov]

God's.

 

God is not real either.

[Ouroboros]

You seem so concerned with "respecting" men, you, if you actually convince them of your belief, give them no gospel at all.  If these are truly your beliefs, as they are what I have observed and remained silent so that I may learn what it is... truly, it is no gospel, and it isn't Christian.  I'm not sure what it is.

So your concern is that Amanda doesn't have a gospel to give us? That she would give us a false gospel if she would be able to convert anyone of us? That is your primary concern? So what was it you wanted to do on this site again? Convert people or learn more about us? Didn't you say you were curious? Yet, you seem more interested in other Christians POV.

 

Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God?  Or am I trying to please men?  If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servent of Christ.

And yet, Jesus was a man. Trying to please him, you're still trying to please at least 1 man.

 

That's so gay it ever could be!!!

 

Stop trying to please them, because even if with your philosophy you present here you do please them... which I can certainly fathom.  You have pleased them with a lie, which will benefit them nothing at all.

 

Please us? Some of us have accepted her point of view, but not all of us, and no one have accepted your's. She got a more compassionate and loving heart than you. I rather listen to her, than YOU!

 

Btw, your "philosophy" stinks, and doesn't hold water.

[Ouroboros]

Hell is real, and your disbelief in it doesn't make it go away.  Just because *you* say its time to "shake the dust off" and go, does not mean that it is.  I'm fully aware that many of the people here are professing ex-christians.  Should I change the truth for you then?

Hell is a fantasy, an invention, a human construct to scare little children, and your belief will not ever make it real.

[Ouroboros]

God's.

Oh, you mean Allah! Or was it JHWH? Or maybe Elohim? Not Jesus you say?

[Vixentrox]

Kinda like...the monster under the bed. If your hell is real than why not the Muslim's hell or any other religions? Use your head...oh wait...you are. It's just brainwashed.

[daniel_1012]

Which god?  Prove it's yours.

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Not my duty. I'm just supposed to tell you about it.

[Vixentrox]

Not my duty.  I'm just supposed to tell you about it.

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Not your duty? Whose is it then? Holy Spirit? Got news for yah. He's failing miserably. Must still have his mind on that hebrew virgin he raped.

[daniel_1012]

So your concern is that Amanda doesn't have a gospel to give us? That she would give us a false gospel if she would be able to convert anyone of us? That is your primary concern? So what was it you wanted to do on this site again? Convert people or learn more about us? Didn't you say you were curious? Yet, you seem more interested in other Christians POV.

And yet, Jesus was a man. Trying to please him, you're still trying to please at least 1 man.

 

That's so gay it ever could be!!!

Please us? Some of us have accepted her point of view, but not all of us, and no one have accepted your's. She got a more compassionate and loving heart than you. I rather listen to her, than YOU!

 

Btw, your "philosophy" stinks, and doesn't hold water.

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I'm willing to see converted, anyone who doesn't know what they are talking about... professing Christians and nonprofessing Christians alike.

[Mike D]

Hell is real, and your disbelief in it doesn't make it go away.

IMO, people who insist that invisible magical places in storybooks are real are suffering from hallucations and should seek immediate medical attention. An inability to distinguish fantasy from reality could be a sign of serious medical and/or psychological problems....

[Ouroboros]

I'm willing to see converted, anyone who doesn't know what they are talking about... professing Christians and nonprofessing Christians alike.

You have some learning to do.

Pick up the book A History of Christianity, by Paul Johnson (a christian), and read how the dogma developed. And how conflicting the ideas and interpretations were before the Catholic Church came and established the "True Faith™".

 

Amandas interpretation of the scripture is not less worthy or in any way incorrect, it only is in YOUR mind. Because you think in absolutes, and can't see beyond your own opinion. Man, you live a fantasy! Nothing else.