I Get It

[CliffordStamper]

 bill

 

Thank you for that clarification. At least I now know where you are coming from. But as has already been pointed out to you, relying on the UCMJ is not the same thing as relying on the bible.

Basically it is. It is submission of oneself to a higher authority. Granted the bible represents (to me) the highest authority.,God..

Both cases there are many reasons for ones submission or lack there of to a higher authority.

 

If you believe the bible to be the word of god, how can you
question it and why do you question it?

I believe it in part because I can and do question. How can one know someone or thing unless one asks questions. I question the bible and God. Prayer is talking to God. Look though the bible. . .  A lot of people in the bible questioned God and what they saw.and what they were told,

"BLASPHEMY!!!! "the pastor said "YOU DARE QUESTION THE WORD OF GAUDDD!!!!!!!

​It is not god that doesn't want you to interpret for yourself. It is the fear mongers, the apostate church. It is the money changers.

If your going to get the truth of god then you need to get it directly from god.

Another thing I do is question my understanding of scripture. I prove one against another  .And everything I get from man against scripture.

 

Do you really believe that anyone who doesn't believe as you do, that Jesus was the
savior and was god, that they will burn in hell for eternity? Why do you believe that?

NO!  I do not believe that. I believe that because I know God/Jesus and knowing that, I know that if I do that which demands Damnation I will be cast into hell 

 

To my current understanding of scripture, Those who don't know don't believe. And those those who don't believe and / or are deceived will be given the truth and have the choice of eternal life or ceasing to exist.
Since you say that you will question the bible, did you question your belief in Jesus?

At times I do, At times (like when I'm going though bad times) I question a lot of things. Where are you?  Are you real? What have I done?

[sdelsolray]

He "knows", says he.  He just hasn't questioned that part of it yet.

[SquareOne]

I'm about as angry at God as I am at Lord Voldemort.

[awworrell]

 

Do you really believe that anyone who doesn't believe as you do, that Jesus was the

savior and was god, that they will burn in hell for eternity? Why do you believe that?

NO!  I do not believe that. I believe that because I know God/Jesus and knowing that, I know that if I do that which demands Damnation I will be cast into hell 

 

To my current understanding of scripture, Those who don't know don't believe. And those those who don't believe and / or are deceived will be given the truth and have the choice of eternal life or ceasing to exist.

Cliff I actually have a question about what you believe since I am slightly confused. 

 

You said in the above Quote when asked if a person doesn't believe that Christ is the savior and was god then they would burn in hell. Your answer was no that you do not believe that a person who doesn't believe would burn in hell.

 

What I am confused on is the Bible seems to be pretty clear in terms of what is expected from Christ. There are three verses I want to point out,

 

First, John 3:16 states "For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

 

Second, John 3:1-5 states "Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[b] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

 

Thus from these two verses alone taking them on their face value, in order to get into heaven in the Christian tradition one must accept Christ and be born again in Christ. The question of course is well what about hell. 

 

In Matthew Chapter 25:41-46, Christ is talking about hell where he says

 

• Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

  44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

  45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

  46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

   

  So, this conversation with Jesus is pretty clear. Either a person comes to him via the father in which case goes into eternal paradise. If Christ doesn't know you or a person doesn't see Christ and do things for him, then he goes into eternal punishment.

   

  I suppose my question then is if a person must go through Christ and be born again so that they can access the father then

•  

• 1. Where do they go if they do not believe in Christ as there really are only two choices?

• 2. If a person doesn't believe in Christ then chances are they wouldn't see Christ in people, thus are they a goat by Christ's own admission and thus condemable to eternal torment?

[RipVanWinkle]

bill: "But as has already been pointed out to you, relying on the UCMJ is not the same thing as

relying on the bible."

Cliff:"Basically it is. It is submission of oneself to a higher authority. Granted the bible represents (to me) the highest authority.,God..

Both cases there are many reasons for ones submission or lack there of to a higher authority."

 

NO, IT IS NOT. NOT BY A LONG SHOT. WE KNOW WITHOUT ANY DOUBT WHO ISSUED THE UCMJ, THAT IT WAS WRITTEN

BY REAL PEOPLE AND APPROVED BY REAL PEOPLE WITH PROPER LEGAL AUTHORITY. THE SPECIFIC NAMES AND TITLES

ARE PROVIDED, UNLIKE THE BIBLE, WHOSE AUTHORS AND AUTHORITY ARE UNKNOWN. The UCMJ'S APPROVAL WAS NOT

VOTED ON BY COUNCILS OF MEN WHO WERE TOLD BY AN EMPEROR TO APPROVE A CANON FOR THE CHURCH. IT DIDN'T

TAKE HUNDREDS OF YEARS FOR ITS APPROVAL. IT DOESN'T REPORT PREPOSTEROUS MIRACLES WHICH CONFLICT WITH

NATURAL LAW. IT DOESN'T STATE THAT THE EARTH IS THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE AND IS FLAT. IT DOESN'T

REPORT A HISTORY THAT NEVER OCCURRED, AS DOES THE BIBLE. IT WAS NOT CREATED FROM ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS

THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD AND COPIED AND RECOPIED OVER HUNDREDS AND EVEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS WITH MULTIPLE ALTERATIONS, FORGERIES AND CONFLICTS. IT DOESN'T HAVE MULTIPLE CONTRADICTIONS WITHIN ITS "FOUR CORNERS".IT DOESN'T MAKE PROPHESIES THAT ARE VAGUE AND UNCERTAIN AND YET ARE CLAIMED TO HAVE COME TRUE. IT DOES NOT REPORT OF TALKING ANIMALS. IT DOESN'T DESCRIBE A GOD WHO ORDERS EVERY MAN, WOMAN AND CHILD KILLED AND VIRGINS KEPT FOR SEX SLAVES OR FOR MARRIAGE BY THE VICTORS. THERE AREN'T MULTIPLE VERSIONS OF THE

UCMJ PUBLISHED WHICH ARE INCONSISTENT WITH EACH OTHER.IT DOESN'T MAKE THE ABSURD CLAIM THAT IT IS THE

WORD OF GOD. IT DOESN'T CLAIM THAT MOST PEOPLE WILL GO TO AN ETERNAL PUNISHMENT IN A LAKE OF FIRE AFTER

DEATH.I COULD GO ON AND ON (AND I ALREADY HAVE FOR TOO LONG)FOR PAGES. THE BOTTOM LINE IS YOU CAN CITE NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT EITHER THE TRUTH OF OR THE AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE. YOU SIMPLY CITE THE BIBLE FOR ITS OWN AUTHORITY. SO DO THE MUSLIMS FOR THEIR KORAN. BUT WHAT SUPPORTS THE BIBLE'S CLAIMS OTHER THAN THE BIBLE? NOTHING. Your personal belief is not evidence of truth or authenticity. GET REAL.

 

I'll pick this up possibly tomorrow as to your other points. bill

[CliffordStamper]

Your personal belief is not evidence of truth or authenticity

 

ok

[Ravenstar]

Thanks Florduh!  

 

It's like talking to a wall.. every time... the same conversation, round and round. It's like believers are all actually one person, with one brain, like the Borg.

 

Gobsmacked... hopefully the lurkers, the honestly curious, the seekers and the shy get something out of these circular exchanges.

 

Think I'll go watch some funny cat videos for a bit...

[mymistake]

Thanks Florduh!  

 

It's like talking to a wall.. every time... the same conversation, round and round. It's like believers are all actually one person, with one brain, like the Borg.

 

Gobsmacked... hopefully the lurkers, the honestly curious, the seekers and the shy get something out of these circular exchanges.

 

Think I'll go watch some funny cat videos for a bit...

 

 

It's rigid thinking.  Christians repeat the same thing because they are repeating the ideas that were indoctrinated into them.  I use to say the exact same thing and believe that I was exercising my "free will" while repeating and believing my indoctrination.

[mymistake]

 

 

Thanks Florduh!

 

It's like talking to a wall.. every time... the same conversation, round and round. It's like believers are all actually one person, with one brain, like the Borg.

 

Gobsmacked... hopefully the lurkers, the honestly curious, the seekers and the shy get something out of these circular exchanges.

 

Think I'll go watch some funny cat videos for a bit...

 

It's rigid thinking. Christians repeat the same thing because they are repeating the ideas that were indoctrinated into them. I use to say the exact same thing and believe that I was exercising my "free will" while repeating and believing my indoctrination.

Kinda like material reductionism?....

 

 

Nothing like it.  You could waste years of that topic and never have anything to show for it.  If you want to fail some more why not go back to one of the threads already dedicated to it?

[Guest Marty]

 

 

You are absolutely right about one thing  Fear causes anger.What does that tell you about those who are still angry at me?

 

 

It means I (and others) are afraid of christians bringing an American Taliban into power.  It is not as crazy and far fetched as it may sound at first.  Over the last 20 years christians have been trying to get the 10 commandments into schools and courthouses, faculty led  prayer put back into school, redefine the definition of science to include supernatural causes (ie. creationism), prevent schools from teaching children sex education and in the process causing all rates of disease and teen pregnancy to rise sharply, prevent an entire segment of humanity having equal rights to love and marry whom they choose, prevent and deny women control over their own bodies even when the womans life is at risk, refused funding for scientific research that can (and does) offer "miracle" cures and treatments on a genetic level (stem cells), they have (in the past) been against inter-racial marriages, and was even behind the prohibition of alcohol, and we all know how great that (and the war on drugs) have turned out.  All this while secretly banging hookers (and alter boys) and "rent boys" and smoking meth and embezzling millions from their organizations.  And then they try to claim "seperation of church and state" when people try to investigate them.

 

I am not mad at you.  I can not speak for others here, but I am willing to bet no one here is angry at you, even if they attack you or your words personally.  You need to realize that you represent what we left; what we chose to leave behind us (and it has nothing to do with an icon given when you signed up.  It was removed before I even saw any of your posts and I knew you were a christian from the first sentence in "I Get It").  But in this free country, there are powerful movements by well funded uber minorities that are trying to force bronze age beliefs down our throat.  

 

And none of what they want to do is healthy for this country or even backed by empirical evidence.  In fact, many of their ideas go directly against empirical evidence, such as abstinence only education resulting in more STDs and teen pregnancies than other school districts that teach contraception, etc.  Sarah Palin is an "abstinence only" politician and her daughter had a kid at, 16 was it?

 

That is why I am angry.  Not because they believe what they do, and not because they want to make it American law.  I am angry because they have a shot to actually make that happen in this day when government can be bought for the highest dollar if we (the majority) do nothing to try and stop them, and that scares me.  I am afraid of losing my freedom in this "land of the free" and be forced back into a dark world that I ran away from as soon as I was able to do so.  I am afraid we will become a third world country in short order if these jesus freaks get enough control.

 

THAT is why I am angry.

[Guest Marty]

This napkin is the one true religion because it says so right here on this napkin This napkin is the one true religion because it says so right here on this napkin This napkin is the one true religion because it says so right here on this napkin This napkin is the one true religion because it says so right here on this napkin... ad nauseum.

...snip...

 

Or even better.. just pick up a good astronomy book, get a feel for how incredibly unbelievably huge the universe is, and how deadly to our kind of life... beautiful as well.

 

Yea, but Raven, look at his signature.  "Proof, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder".  How can you have a discussion with someone who says "Show me where the bible says to kill gay people",  is then shown Lev 20:13 and comes back with "That says 'put them to death' it doesn't say 'kill them'"

 

[◊ crazyguy123 ◊]

NO!  I do not believe that. I believe that because I know God/Jesus and knowing that, I know that if I do that which demands Damnation I will be cast into hell 

 

To my current understanding of scripture, Those who don't know don't believe. And those those who don't believe and / or are deceived will be given the truth and have the choice of eternal life or ceasing to exist.

 

So, do you believe that damnation is simply ceasing to exist? No burning in a lake of fire, where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth and utter darkness? If damnation is ceasing to exist, then if I found out that your god was real, I'd completely reject him because as far as I know about the guy, whether he is real or fictional, he seems like a giant prick.

 

Besides, what actually demands damnation and why does it demand damnation? I know that things like murder, stealing, lying, two men getting in bed together, and mowing the lawn on the Sabbath are all sins, according to scripture. For what reason could they all be considered equally terrible and deserving of the same punishment? It looks like the god of the Bible was either making up a bunch of arbitrary rules, simply because he could, or people made up the rules of the Bible and created a god to threaten people with for not conforming.

[Guest Marty]

 

Another thing I do is question my understanding of scripture. I prove one against another  .And everything I get from man against scripture.

 

 

I question your understanding of scripture too.  For someone who claims to read and study the bible, I've seen you schooled on it once already.  I honestly thought everyone knew about Leviticus 20:13, but you didn't know it existed.

 

I have found that the more you read and understand the bible, the less you believe.  Reading the bible cover to cover in 6th grade was what started me on my deconversion.  

[CliffordStamper]

There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended

 

Quote Marty 

I have found that the more you read and.understand the bible, the less you believe 

 

The more Marty read the Bible the less he believed.

 

The more Cliff reads the bible the more he believes

 

Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to.

 

Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to

 

 

Cliff knew that  LEV 20;13 was in the bible.  Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays.

 

Had Cliff  been given the chance he would have explained that.

 

Marty, Cliff questions your understanding and intent concerning the bible

[TrueFreedom]

Get off of your cross, and show us your dick, Clifford. Your martyr complex has gotten old.  Many of us are perfectly capable of discussing different perspectives of any biblical passage that you would like to discuss.  Several Ex-C members have masters degrees in biblical studies.  I think that you are probably out of your league, but we will welcome your thoughtful contribution to the conversation.

[SquareOne]

Get off of your cross, and show us your dick, Clifford. Your martyr complex has gotten old.  Many of us are perfectly capable of discussing different perspectives of any biblical passage that you would like to discuss.  Several Ex-C members have masters degrees in biblical studies.  I think that you are probably out of your league, but we will welcome your thoughtful contribution to the conversation.

 

[bornagainathiest]

There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended

 

Quote Marty 

I have found that the more you read and.understand the bible, the less you believe 

 

The more Marty read the Bible the less he believed.

 

The more Cliff reads the bible the more he believes

 

Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to.

 

Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to

 

 

Cliff knew that  LEV 20;13 was in the bible.  Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays.

 

Had Cliff  been given the chance he would have explained that.

 

Marty, Cliff questions your understanding and intent concerning the bible

 

BAA questions Cliff's understanding of the Bible...

 

...because of the the most important things it says - which he hasn't hinted at, referred to or mentioned in any post since he arrived.  The glaring absence of this from his words is most un-Christian!

 

How about it, Cliff?

 

BAA

[RipVanWinkle]

Cliff: Do you even realize that you posts do not even address Ravensar's highly informed post #122? She dealt you a knock out punch and you don't even respond? Cat got your

tongue? Nor my post #130? Nor any other post on their substantive Points? You just say: I believe. I believe. And you think that answers? bill

[Lerk]

I am so tempted to keep commenting, but I know the best piece of advice for usenet days is "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

[bornagainathiest]

Taking MisterTwo's advice...

 

 

...I'm going to change my last post.

 

BAA questions Cliff's understanding of the Bible...

...because of the the most important things it says - which he hasn't hinted at, referred to or mentioned in any post since he arrived.  The glaring absence of this from his words is most un-Christian!

How about it, Cliff?

BAA

 

To read like this...

 

BAA questions wether Cliff is any kind of christian at all...

...because of the the most important thing the Bible says - which he hasn't hinted at, referred to or mentioned in any post since he arrived.  The glaring absence of this from his words is most un-Christian!

How about it, Cliff?

 

Anyone else see what's totally missing from Clifford Stamper's the troll's posts?

 

The one thing that should be there, if he were a REAL Christian?

 

The one thing that REAL Christians hold to be true?

 

The one thing that explains everything else in the Bible?

 

Anyone... ?

 

BAA

[midniterider]

There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended

 

The bible. A rather uninteresting work of fiction.

[midniterider]

Oh before I forget, fuck the bible and fuck the UCMJ.

[midniterider]

I am so tempted to keep commenting, but I know the best piece of advice for usenet days is "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!"

 

Feeding the trolls continues the perverted entertainment. :-)

[sdelsolray]

There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended

 

Quote Marty 

I have found that the more you read and.understand the bible, the less you believe 

 

The more Marty read the Bible the less he believed.

 

The more Cliff reads the bible the more he believes

 

Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to.

 

Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to

 

 

Cliff knew that  LEV 20;13 was in the bible.  Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays.

 

Had Cliff  been given the chance he would have explained that.

 

Marty, Cliff questions your understanding and intent concerning the bible

Cliff talks about himself in the third person.

 

Funny guy.

[mymistake]

 

 

Cliff knew that  LEV 20;13 was in the bible.  Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays.

 

 

 

I knew you wouldn't keep your promise to not lie.  You are such an obvious troll!

 

 

 

  

 

Jesus lover