◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended The bible. A rather uninteresting work of fiction. It's funny, he says that using the scripture to support your own agenda and using it for the purpose it was intended are different things, but wasn't the original purpose of the scripture to support the agendas of people who wanted power and used religion to control others? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted September 1, 2013 Share Posted September 1, 2013 I am so tempted to keep commenting, but I know the best piece of advice for usenet days is "DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!" Feeding the trolls continues the perverted entertainment. :-) Oh, I get it! Sort of like messing with Sasquatch! In that case, feed away! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended The bible. A rather uninteresting work of fiction. It's funny, he says that using the scripture to support your own agenda and using it for the purpose it was intended are different things, but wasn't the original purpose of the scripture to support the agendas of people who wanted power and used religion to control others? Exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ThereIsNoGod Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 I'm sorry Clifford but it sounds like you are "mission driven" in coming here. Maybe even you don't know exactly why you came here, but whats coming out right now makes it seem as though you are hoping to please God somehow by coming here and I think that is the case with most Christians that come here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 "Proof, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder" I have proof of unicorns living amongst us. It's just something "I know." No verification required. And the unicorns want you to give me money. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
directionless Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 ... BAA questions wether Cliff is any kind of christian at all... ...because of the the most important thing the Bible says - which he hasn't hinted at, referred to or mentioned in any post since he arrived. The glaring absence of this from his words is most un-Christian! How about it, Cliff? Anyone else see what's totally missing from Clifford Stamper's the troll's posts? The one thing that should be there, if he were a REAL Christian? The one thing that REAL Christians hold to be true? The one thing that explains everything else in the Bible? Anyone... ? BAA This has me stumped. Anyone... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended Quote Marty I have found that the more you read and.understand the bible, the less you believe The more Marty read the Bible the less he believed. The more Cliff reads the bible the more he believes Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to. Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to Cliff knew that LEV 20;13 was in the bible. Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays. Had Cliff been given the chance he would have explained that. Marty, Cliff questions your understanding and intent concerning the bible OMG Seriously? K, here's what it is... YOU don't like the icky feelings you get when a bible verse says something about you don't like. Your god is the fluffy bunny loves, hugs and skittles god. Now I GET IT. You interpret the bible through warm, mushy feel good goggles. If you really believed your bible you'd be more like Westboro Baptist Church. They may be hateful, but guess what? They actually read the bible as it is written.. They are right a lot of the time... mot remotely moral, but right about what the bible says (except for abortion - the bible actually supports it in cases of suspected infidelity) That's NOT what is there Clifford, open your damn eyes. The god of the bible is a monster, a blood-thirsty, war-loving, arbitrary, racist, misogynistic, genocidal monster. From the time this 'god' set up his creations to fail in Genesis, through child sacrifice for favour in war to genocide of whole peoples, on to commanding the slaughter of babies, the abduction and rape of young women, to supporting husband killing kings with lust on their minds and calling them righteous, and all the way through his AVATAR... the supposedly meek and mild Jesus who condemns pretty much everyone except a very select few to eternal damnation (it's pretty clear that this 'death' includes torture - even if one subscribes to final annihilation). And i've only touched on maybe 6 or 7 stories in the book... there's hundreds of atrocities, all 'blessed' by this god. Who says he never changes, but he does.. quite often, so is also a liar. He seems to be powerless over iron chariots as well lol maybe iron is his kryptonite. Some interesting passages: The next day an evil spirit from God came over Saul, and he raged in his house. David was in attendance, playing the harp as at other times, while Saul was holding his spear. Saul poised his spear, thinking to nail David to the wall, but twice David escaped him. (1 Samuel 18:10-11 NAB) God commands you to kill: Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB) Bad people are made by God: The Lord has made everything for his own ends, even the wicked for the evil day. (Proverbs 16:4 NAB) A little bit of killing to please God: "This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.'" (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB) God does evil: [The prophet Jeremiah speaking] "Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, to whom you sent me to offer your prayer: If you remain quietly in this land I will build you up, and not tear you down; I will plant you, not uproot you; for I regret the evil I have done you." (Jeremiah 42:9-10 NAB) (Please explain how an omniscient god can REGRET anything.) Teh GAYS must die! "If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives. (Leviticus 20:13 NAB) Human sacrifice in the Bible, or, Stories not heard in Sunday School: The one who has stolen what was set apart for destruction will himself be burned with fire, along with everything he has, for he has broken the covenant of the LORD and has done a horrible thing in Israel. (Joshua 7:15 NLT) The Prince of Peace: If anyone comes to me without hating his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he can not be my disciple. (Luke 14:26 NAB) Torture from The Prince of Peace: The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will collect out of his kingdom all who cause others to sin and all evildoers. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth. (Matthew 13:41-42 NAB) Murder, rape and pillage, oh my They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves. (Numbers 31:7-18 NLT) Rape and baby killing, another story not seen in Sunday School: Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) Human sacrifice,, again: You shall not delay the offering of your harvest and your press. You shall give me the first born of your sons. You must do the same for your oxen and your sheep. (Exodus 22:28-29 NAB) Even more ritual human sacrifice: Note also that any one of his possessions which a man vows as doomed to the Lord, whether it is a human being or an animal, or a hereditary field, shall be neither sold nor ransomed; everything that is thus doomed becomes most sacred to the Lord. All human beings that are doomed lose the right to be redeemed; they must be put to death. (Leviticus 27:28-29 NAB) God does evil: For since with this city, which is called by my name, I begin to inflict evil, how can you possibly be spared? You shall not be spared! I will call down the sword upon all who inhabit the earth, says the Lord of hosts. (Jeremiah 25:29 NAB) Moses should be on CSI, as a perpetrator: Many years later, when Moses had grown up, he went out to visit his people, the Israelites, and he saw how hard they were forced to work. During his visit, he saw an Egyptian beating one of the Hebrew slaves. After looking around to make sure no one was watching, Moses killed the Egyptian and buried him in the sand. (Exodus 2:11-12 NLT) Jesus really doesn't want to save everyone: And when he [Jesus] was alone, those present along with the Twelve questioned him about the parables. He answered them, "The mystery of the kingdom of God has been granted to you. But to those outside everything comes in parables, so that 'they may look and see but not perceive, and hear and listen but not understand, in order that they may not be converted and be forgiven.'" (Mark 4:10-12 NAB) God lies about the destruction of Babylon, or What God Didn't Know: Send out a call for archers to come to Babylon. Surround the city so none can escape. Do to her as she has done to others, for she has defied the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. Her young men will fall in the streets and die. Her warriors will all be killed," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 50:29-30 NLT) (After God promises a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kick by Babylon in Jeremiah 52.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to. Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to Marty never said Marty was forced to read the bible cover to cover. Marty read it for the first time in 6th grade under Marty's own volition. Marty was shocked at what Marty read about women and neighboring cultures. Marty was even more shocked that Marty's mother, teachers, and church elders seemed to sweep away these verses and pretend like they didn't exist. And you have already been shown your ass when it comes to knowing and understanding scripture. We know more about it and understand it better than you do. That is why we are EX christians. Marty was not able to figure out how to properly multi quote from another thread... From "Punk Ass Kids": The bible does not tell anyone to kill gays. Obviously you ,like many others, choose to repeat something you know little to nothing about. You have read this from the bible??? Proof Please Read it again friend . It says that they shall be put to death !. That is not the same as kill them. 2.God was making a statement. not giving a command. 3. That statement was to a particular people at a particular time, under certain conditions none of which are present today. Lets put the issue of killing gays to rest for the moment though (and that jesus TWICE said that not one word of the old law is to be changed until he returns at the end of time), OK? What are your thoughts about the over 20 some odd verses within the old and new testaments that condone slavery and give rules and regulations on who can be slaves and how to treat them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Hmm....BAA, I'm stumped, Resurrection? Original sin? Satan? Creationism? He states faith quite often, obliquely though. ??? Are you going to make me go through all his posts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 There is a vast difference between "knowing" whats in the bible and understanding it. There is a vast difference between using scripture to support your own agenda and knowing it.and using it for the purpose it was intended Quote Marty I have found that the more you read and.understand the bible, the less you believe The more Marty read the Bible the less he believed. The more Cliff reads the bible the more he believes Marty read the the bible cover to cover because he was forced to. Cliff studies the bible daily.and has for the past 14 years because he wants to Cliff knew that LEV 20;13 was in the bible. Cliff also knows the Bible does not tell (us) to kill gays. Had Cliff been given the chance he would have explained that. Marty, Cliff questions your understanding and intent concerning the bible Cliff talks about himself in the third person. Funny guy. OMG! what was that Seinfeld character... ? JIMMY!!!! LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 3. That statement was to a particular people at a particular time, under certain conditions none of which are present today. Matt 5: 17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Exodus 21:1-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. Exodus 21:7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor." Deuteronomy 21:10-14 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her." Deuteronomy 20:14 "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself" Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Luke 12:47-48 The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 Marty I don't know how to explain this with out it turning into another "dammed" argument. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 Exodus 21:1-4 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing. If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master's, and he shall go out by himself. Exodus 21:7 When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. Leviticus 25:44-46 "Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigor." Deuteronomy 21:10-14 "When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her." Deuteronomy 20:14 "But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself" Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. 1 Timothy 6:1-2 Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. Luke 12:47-48 The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." Marty, I cannot tell what your doing here What are you looking for??If it is "proof", I have none.. Looking for an argument?? I'm no longer playing that game. Cliff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 It's really simple to explain Cliff: The bible is the product of a pre-scientific bronze age culture of goat herders that was simply trying to explain the world around them and how to live with each other. It does not have a divine origin any more than they mythology of the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Hittites, the Amalikites, the Jedi, or the Hobbits, do. It was inspired in the exact same way Sir Arthur Conan Doyle was inspired to write the Sherlock Holmes series and or how I am inspired to write a musical composition... It is the only explanation that makes any sense. All the world's religions can not be correct, Cliff. But it is entirely possible they are all wrong. Why do think you just happened to be born into the one correct religion out of all the possible times and places and religions you could have been born into? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerk Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 I don't know how to explain this with out it turning into another "dammed" argument. Clifford, we don't even really know why you're here. You call yourself an ex-Christian, you post things that seem to say you have something to tell us, something to show us, to help us out of our pain. (And some here really did experience pain as Christians, but many had perfectly happy Christian experiences until the day they had studied their Bibles enough to realize that the book was a compilation of myths, legends, history, and embellished history, finished off with mysticism.) But you come here and post bizarre, cryptic messages, get into arguments, etc., while hinting that you know something that Christians don't know, and that we former Christians need to know -- yet you never say what it is! Please get to the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Marty Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Marty, I cannot tell what your doing here What are you looking for??If it is "proof", I have none.. Looking for an argument?? I'm no longer playing that game. Cliff Oh, I am sorry. I thought you said you understood the bible, and that you believe every word in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 God does not change. God's laws are perfect. Jesus didn't come to get rid of the law, not yet anyway, he stated that clearly. Even if Jesus' sacrifice (sacrificing your first born..LOOK! God set the example.. you do realize that human sacrifice was common at one time, don't you? And that the Bible's precept are based on that ancient practice) pays the price of your crimes (sin.. missing the mark, not upholding the LAW [630 something of them]) the LAW is perfect and does not end. They are not invalid.. EVER. Because god is unchanging. The MAJORITY of the Bible is about god's rules and commands for his people... do you really believe that god would spend 2000 years instructing his people how he wanted them to live, IN DETAIL, and then just say, "Naw, scrap all that, I was just joking" ? Would it make any sense at all? Why doesn't he put out a "Bible 2.0" for the rest of us (the majority of mankind) who don't live in the bronze age, herding goats? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Okay.. you don't have proof, you don't want to debate... and you won't explain your position. It's not a game Cliff, it's what we do here.. most of us take it pretty seriously - though in real life i don't think about it much anymore. The purpose of this site to encourage and support those leaving christianity, as well as debating christianity in all it's aspects. Exploring, if you will. Soooo, why ARE you here? Not that I mind... your kind keeps me on my toes, and I enjoy stretching myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Cliff has an identity crisis the likes of which has never been seen. bill 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mymistake Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 What are you looking for??If it is "proof", I have none.. Decided to tell the truth today? Bravo! I don't have a problem with you holding a mysterious faith that is all mysterious. There are plenty of other things in life to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Like The Sphinx from Mystery Men! THE SPHINX "He who questions training only trains himself at asking questions." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Directionless wrote... "This has me stumped. Anyone... ?" Ravenstar wrote... "Hmm....BAA, I'm stumped, Resurrection? Original sin? Satan? Creationism? He states faith quite often, obliquely though. ??? Are you going to make me go through all his posts?" . . . It's ok Ravenstar, I've already been thru his posts. Here's what's missing from the them and should be there if he were a REAL Christian. . . . Love. . . . Not once has Mr. Stamper the troll mentioned, claimed, stated, asserted, alluded to, hinted at or referred to (no matter how obliquely) ...God being love. Real Christians believe that God is love. Perfect, infinite and eternal love. Isn't God's love the very heart and core and foundation of the Bible and Christianity? Love explains the relationship of the Godhead. Three persons - One God. The Father loves His Son and the Holy Spirit as they love Him and each other. Love explains why God created the entire universe - so that we, His creations could freely choose to love Him. Love explains why God incarnated Himself as Jesus Christ, the Son of God and died for our sins so that we could be reconciled to the Father. But where and when has Cliff ever mentioned anything about the depth of God's love for us? Where and when has Cliff ever written about how much he loves God? Where and when has Cliff ever said how much God loves him? . . . So here we have a (so-called) 'Christian' who never, ever writes a single word about God's love. He's written about power, authority, rules, belief, faith, the Law, sin, salvation and a whole load of other stuff, but when it comes to writing about how God is love and how God loves us...? Nothing. Zip. Nada. Zero. So, imho Clifford Stamper is a Christian. That's Christian, spelled T-R-O-L-L BAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdp Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 This may sound like an odd question Clifford, but is that guy in your avatar from Maple Story? I have never played Maple Story before, but I have seen a few images of it. When avatars first started getting popular I used a program to make the little guy He is a caricature of me. YOU are a caricature of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliffordStamper Posted September 2, 2013 Author Share Posted September 2, 2013 This may sound like an odd question Clifford, but is that guy in your avatar from Maple Story? I have never played Maple Story before, but I have seen a few images of it. When avatars first started getting popular I used a program to make the little guy He is a caricature of me. YOU are a caricature of you. Got it Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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