Why Should I Worship Jeezus(tm) And Not Odin?

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Astreja]

Dad doesn't need or want a concession from Amy, but says 'Thanks anyway.'

 

This whole thread is starting to remind me of the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. "I am invin...cible!"

[Lycorth]

^..^

[nick5]

"Within this generation..." The generation alive to see his second coming. He lists all the signs that must take place, including the preaching of the gospel to the world.

Amy, I don't remember the exact number, but there is a verse where he says "some of those who are standing in front of me shall not die untill those things have come to pass".

Are any of the disciples still alive today?

PLEASE ANSWER THIS AMY. IT'S IMPORTANT.

 

Is there someone who was alive back then, who is still alive today? Even just one. Is there still even just ONE person who is alive now, who has seen and heard Jesus say this. Think about it amy. That person would be nearly 2000 years old now. But Jesus clearly says that at least one person would still be alive.

 

So? Is Jesus lying? If not, please tell me which one of those guys is still alive today. Jesus can't lie, right? So it has to be true. Surely he knows what he's talking about?

[nick5]

Amy, I have been very polite with my last question. I would appreciate it very much if you could answer it. PLEASE. It's the post that is just above your own. I am not trying to bully you or anything, just asking a honest question. If you maintain that Jesus didn't lie, then I would really like to meet those 2000 years old people who are still alive today.

Jesus said some of them (those standing in front of him) would still be alive during the end times. Clearly the end times have not come yet, so they must still be alive, IF JESUS WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.

 

I am serious. If you tell me who they are, I WILL believe and I WILL become a christian. A 2000 years old person isn't something you see every day. That's the miracle I need to make me believe.

[Lycorth]

^..^

[white_raven23]

Yes Nick. I will gladly anser your question. I'll get back to you in a second.

 

Deja' Vu'

 

I could swear she typed the words "I'll answer you later." In a thread earlier today.

 

Couldn't be.

 

Hey! Anyone want to bet 'someone' is going to confuse fact with feeling again? And follow that with a claim that we are all so mean and that she DID answer the question?

 

Anyone want to put money on it?

[nick5]

I'm sorry amy but I am not convinced. Jesus sais the kingdom would COME with power. He was on earth when he said this, right? So it meant, come to earth. As in end times.

I have to disagree with your interpretation.

 

Also, even if your interpretation is right (which I doubt, because it is clear to me he was talking about the end times), it is nothing that can be verified today, and could easily have been made up. So it still fails to convince me, especially since I do agree that Jesus also lied elsewhere (for example, in his promise to answer prayers).

[Lycorth]

^..^

[nick5]

it remained right where it was, and nothing else on Earth changed, according to the story.

Precisely.

 

Besides, what can it convince? It was an alledged "miracle" that was only seen by a handful of people, and in and of itself requires no extra-babblical proof to help validate or rationalize it - or evne prove that it did happen and the participants really did exist.

Exactly. Now, if she had shown me living, breathing 2000 years old people that are still alive today, I would have admitted that it was not a lie, since they are still alive and the end times have not come.

But what I see is a fable that can not be verified in any way.

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Lycorth]

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[mwc]

Amy, I have been very polite with my last question. I would appreciate it very much if you could answer it. PLEASE. It's the post that is just above your own. I am not trying to bully you or anything, just asking a honest question. If you maintain that Jesus didn't lie, then I would really like to meet those 2000 years old people who are still alive today.

Jesus said some of them (those standing in front of him) would still be alive during the end times. Clearly the end times have not come yet, so they must still be alive, IF JESUS WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.

 

I am serious. If you tell me who they are, I WILL believe and I WILL become a christian. A 2000 years old person isn't something you see every day. That's the miracle I need to make me believe.

 

Nick,

 

Here's the verse you referred to: "I tell you, solemnly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kindom of God come with power." Mark 9:1 The Gospel writer starts the chapter with this verse. The next verse begins the story of the transfiguration of Jesus. Matthwe !7:1 picks up the story. Matthew gives a little more disciption than Mark. "His face shown like the sun and His clothes became as white as light." You know the rest of the story. A cloud overshadows Peter, James and John and they hear the voice of the Father. Also Elijah and Moses appear to Jesus. There must have been power there because Matthew says the disciples fell on their faces, overcome with fear.

 

So the context of the verse is about the transfiguration. Peter, James and John were the ones who saw the kingdom come before they tasted death. Jesus did fullfill His promise. The kingdom of God did come in power on the mount of transfiguration. They saw Jesus glorified. They heard the voice of the Father. They were swept into the Shekinah cloud of God. That day Heaven touched earth

 

I see no contradiction here.

Except...

 

You want us to believe that the context of this verse is governed by the chapter breaks. I might be inclined to believe this...but that only works in Mark. Since you were nice enough to point out Matthew we can see that chapter 17 begins at the transfiguration story, unlike Mark which begins a bit awkwardly.

 

Matthew chapter 16 ends, appropriately enough, with the following two verses:

16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

16:28

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Now, of course, the previous chapter of Mark ends with a verse very similar to verse 16:27 but we'll forget that for now.

 

I can also imagine you're saying that you just answered this question so why am I going on about it? The reason is by omitting the first verse you can get away with the answer you gave. A nice tidy answer about the transfiguration. However, by including it you can see that we are talking about two very different events. The transfiguration does not have jesus coming in the glory of his father with his angels where he rewards every man according to his works (which, if you're not paying attention, sort of contradicts Paul's saved by grace alone doctrine). To be taken literally at least one disciple should still be living to this day as that's who he was speaking to in Matthew 16. Your answer fails when put into context.

 

So, back up one verse in Mark, look up the parallel verses in Matthew (as I did for you here), don't go to some apologetic website and really discover what the BIBLE has to say about this stuff. It's all written inside for anyone to read.

 

mwc

[mwc]

You didn't like my answer and now you're being mean to me.

 

With all due respect, why do you insist that I don't go to some apogetic website? That's my right, isn't it?

You do whatever you want.

 

I'm just entertained by xians who claim to get all their info from the "word" which really just means apologists, church doctrine and hearsay. The bible is more inconvenient than anything and is usually ignored when it comes into conflict with any of the aforementioned items.

 

1.) I didn't get my answer form no where else from me, myself and I. I have always thought about that passage in the manner I have described.

I always have a little break when I "get" an answer from my memory. Sure. Sounds reasonable. No reason to think you researched it somewhere or anything.

 

2.) I already read the verse in both Matthew and Mark.

Good for you. Apparently you didn't care that none of that stuff actually happened within the transfiguration itself? That's not somehow, oh what's the word? Dishonest?

 

3.) No matter how you read Matthew and Mark the transfigeration happened soon after Jesus' statement. There's a reason both Gospel writers included the story of the transfiguration in that order. It's plain to see they wanted the reader to understand this is how Christ fullfilled the promise. He said that some standing there would not die until they saw the Kingdom come. Peter, James and John did. . They saw Christ transfigured and looking very much how He will appear at His second coming. Plus there were other proofs of the Kingdom's power. I mean even God the Father spoke from the cloud. The Kingdom comes in many different ways. The ultimate will be Christ's return.

It doesn't matter the order. The writers make many breaks in the texts. Some abrupt and some more subtle. It's plain to see that after he stops speaking at the end of Matthew 16 that six days pass. Are we to believe that jesus thought it important to do this? "...be some standing here, which shall not taste of death...And after six days..." because he wasn't sure that they would actually live out another week? Is that what you're telling me? He that he had to give them this warning of doom for a week? Doesn't that seem a bit far-fetched to you? Their lives were just in that much peril from moment to moment? Not even at this point in his ministry are we to believe that people were that anxious to get these guys. I don't even think Bin Laden hands out these kinds of dire warnings to his closest guys and they are (supposedly) in this kind of danger.

 

So there are two distinct events being discussed. One is longer term, but within the lifetime of some of the disciples. This will be the event where jesus comes in glory, with angels, and rewards based on deeds (of course you mention none of this stuff since it's in conflict with your beliefs...strange how your beliefs will allow you to deny the words of your own god). This event NEVER HAPPENED!

 

The second event is the transfiguration. This is the event you keep speaking of. Did this event happen. I don't care. Let's say it did to make you happy. We get a light. We get to see three people. We get to hear god. We don't get angels. We don't get rewards. We don't get power. We don't get what was promised just a few verses ago. Since those things didn't happen we can conclude that jesus was lying or this isn't the same event.

 

We can't conclude that this is a preview ala "looking very much how He will appear at His second coming." We can't make up the same excuses like we did for his failed messiah-ship. I'm pretty sure we only get to use those reasons just once per god-man. You said you read the verses. Jesus says what the signs would BE not would they would sort of be like or that they would come in different ways like you want to say to me. Don't twist it around (all the things I highlighted in your reply to me cannot be supported by the words of jesus himself in the text we are discussing). It is either what jesus (your god) says it is or it isn't. And so far it isn't.

 

mwc

[Asuryan]

 

Amen! Allow me to jump on THIS particular band wagon, for I was HOPING it would drive by!

It has driven by, but it has also been ignored by amy altogether. I suppose realizing that on this website, atheists, odinists, pagans, agnostics, and christians alike are all either angered or saddened at her way of continuously avoiding questions with the magical 3 tricks, is a bit too much for her.

 

The magical 3 tricks!

When asked a question that you can't afford to answer directly, you...

1) Ignore it altogether, or say you need time and then ignore it anyway.

2) No matter what they asked, answer with some emotional story, something moving, inspiring, and describe the wonders of jesus (the cheesier, the better). This works everytime, even if they asked you to solve a first grade equation.

3) Try to get your opponents angry, so that it will show in their posts, and then USE the feelings they've shown to refuse to answer: becoming judgemental, as if angry people didn't deserve any answer, and as if you were better and more mature than them, is a great weapon that you can use.

 

Please...If you've NEVER understood ANYTHING else I've posted to you...PLEASE understand THIS!

 

Ohhh... which one of her magical tricks will she use to address your question? Or will she use the first one? I'm all excited!

 

I think there are probably good things you have learned and applied in your devotion to Odin. However, yes, I have to draw the line as far as worshipping him.

...huh?

 

So, basically, you're saying that...

- He learned good things from his worshipping of Odin.

- He shouldn't worship Odin.

WTF? What sense can it possibly make??

 

See this is typical of you. I answer your questions and because it not the answer you want ~ anger and more anger. It's like a child who can't have his favorite candy and throws a temper tantrum.

I recognize it! It is Trick N° 3! *claps her hands* Look at how skillfully she attacks that "if you're angry it is because you're without jesus" strawman... how wonderfully she makes people angry so that she can climb up a pedestal and claim moral superiority!

 

Oh, that wacky amy marie! Will she ever learn?

[Golden Meadows]

Amy, I have been very polite with my last question. I would appreciate it very much if you could answer it. PLEASE. It's the post that is just above your own. I am not trying to bully you or anything, just asking a honest question. If you maintain that Jesus didn't lie, then I would really like to meet those 2000 years old people who are still alive today.

Jesus said some of them (those standing in front of him) would still be alive during the end times. Clearly the end times have not come yet, so they must still be alive, IF JESUS WAS TELLING THE TRUTH.

 

I am serious. If you tell me who they are, I WILL believe and I WILL become a christian. A 2000 years old person isn't something you see every day. That's the miracle I need to make me believe.

 

Nick,

 

Here's the verse you referred to: "I tell you, solemnly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kindom of God come with power." Mark 9:1 The Gospel writer starts the chapter with this verse. The next verse begins the story of the transfiguration of Jesus. Matthwe !7:1 picks up the story. Matthew gives a little more disciption than Mark. "His face shown like the sun and His clothes became as white as light." You know the rest of the story. A cloud overshadows Peter, James and John and they hear the voice of the Father. Also Elijah and Moses appear to Jesus. There must have been power there because Matthew says the disciples fell on their faces, overcome with fear.

 

So the context of the verse is about the transfiguration. Peter, James and John were the ones who saw the kingdom come before they tasted death. Jesus did fullfill His promise. The kingdom of God did come in power on the mount of transfiguration. They saw Jesus glorified. They heard the voice of the Father. They were swept into the Shekinah cloud of God. That day Heaven touched earth

 

I see no contradiction here.

 

 

Amy,

From my previous post that has not been answered yet:

 

"But the following passage from Mathew:

 

Mat 24: 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken;

30. then will appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory;

31. and he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32. "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.

33. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

34. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place.

 

Jesus does not speak in the future tense, he speaks in the present tense. My own opinion why the gospels were written long after the event was because Jesus firmly believed in his second coming happening very soon, and so did his disciples, therefore a written book was a waste of time - it didn't happen and so the by the time the gospels were written down they had become distorted in the transmission."

 

I would add that St Paul seemed to think the return of Jesus was soon e.g 1 thes 4:13-18 and rom 13:11-12

[Lycorth]

^..^

[Thurisaz]

See this is typical of you. I answer your questions and because it not the answer you want ~ anger and more anger.

 

Wrong baby. We are furious because in your utter arrogance you ignore the vital points again and again.

 

I've (kind of) held my hand above you for a bit of protection until this very minute. There now, you got what you want. Kiss my arse jebus zombie.

 

You were somewhat better at trying to deceive than the average braindead bastard that likes to drop in here, but in the end... the difference is so small that it doesn't matter.

 

Like we say since the goo' ol' days in usenet:

 

*PLONK*

[Sparrow]

 

Text ...

 

 

 

Careful guys, .... please go easy at the moment.

 

 

She's clearly an evangelical and possibly her faith has collapsed (which is why she is here) or she is a evangelical Bible student who is doing research (which is also possibly why she is here.

 

I'm going to take a risk on the former

 

Amy-Marie - please read the whole text and think about it for at least 30 minutes before you respond.

 

Amy, please be honest. If you want we’ll get a moderator to change your name so no one will know it is you. Are you having trouble with your faith?

 

If this is true, then it is OK. Try to take a moment to understand that we all went through this.

 

The people on this web-site are very good people and they're trying very hard to understand, and if it is like I think it is, then you are going through what we all went through.

 

Collapsing faith and straight-out denial.

 

I know I may be speaking too early, but understand that it is ok. Whether you admit it today, or in 5 years is irrelevant. You are disappointed, something, maybe even something trivial, has happened and it set the wheels in motion.

 

Amy-Marie, certainly a lot of us have a number of things to be angry at Christianity about. However, most of us are beyond that now and we have achieved a certain peace. Many of us have found alternatives, some of us have accepted the world just as it presents itself.

 

You wanted to know in another thread why some people left Christianity, well let me help you understand. Firstly understand that most of them down-played their hard-luck stories.

 

Well I’m going to tell why I left Christianity Amy-Marie.

 

Firstly, I am not going to tell you my real name – sparrow or spatz will have to do. Spatz is a play on words with my name and means sparrow in german.

 

In November 2001 my husband and I were driving towards munich with our two children. We were driving to there because our youngest daughter need and operation on her liver because of a complication of a disease called Alpha-1-Anti-trypsyn depletion.

 

Whilst I know this sounds like a Mills and Boone novel, the sad thing is that it really happened.

 

As usual, when one needs to be at a certain place at a certain time then shit really happens. I think you call it Murphy’s Law in English, well we got a flat tire, and when my husband changed it and stood up to abuse the traffic, he must have stood back t far and was hit by truck doing something like a 100 kilometers an hour. He was killed instantly. I still had to get my daughter to the hospital though.

 

Three (3) months later my mother, my father and my sister died. My sister died with the final stages arising out of a dreadful lung transplant that resulted from the same disease as my daughter. My mother died from a variation of the disease. Six months later my sisters youngest daughter was diagnosed with the same disease.

 

Amy- Marie. I haven’t finished yet - … it goes on and it gets worse.

 

At the end of the day Amy-Marie, the point is that prayers are not answered. Prayers are a waste of time. Satan didn’t kill my husband. Satan didn’t make my daughter or my sisters daughter or my Mother or my uncle, etc, ill and die. My husband died because of bad luck and the other family members because of a genetic disease.

 

There is no god Amy-Marie, there is no jesus, there is no buddha, there is no allah. They don’t exist. We create them because we still need “teddy-bears” in the darkness of the reality in which we live.

 

I think you are here Amy-Marie because you are having trouble with your faith, and by challenging us, the faithless, you seek to bring back the assurances you once had. You’re trying to bring back the wonderful warm comfortable feeling you had before reality bit you.

 

People on this forum left christianity Amy-Marie because there is no more reason to believe and we have found other reasons and ultimately, we’ve grown past it all.

 

And finally, it is really ok if you don’t believe any more too Amy-Marie.

 

You’re amongst friends and we’ll always tell you the truth.

 

Spatz.

[Ouroboros]

Spatz/Sparrow. I'm sorry for all that happened to you. Did you write your ex-imony yet? I have to go and take a look. I had a disaster happened in my family too, but not as drastic as yours. But my feelings go out to you and the family you have left.

 

 

(((hugs)))

 

Hans

[KT45]

Can either Varokhar or Thurisaz answer this one,

 

Well I did a trip to Wikipedia and tried to study some more on Odin. I wanted to know some more information and maybe you could help clarify. I found some stuff on Valhalla, excuse me if this wasn't discussed.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valhalla

Valhalla (Old Norse Valhöll, "Hall of the slain") is Odin's hall in Norse mythology, the home for those slain gloriously in battle, (known as Einherjar), who are welcomed by Bragi and escorted to Valhalla by the valkyries. It has five hundred and forty doors, so wide that eight hundred warriors could walk next to each other, walls made of spears, a roof made of shields and benches covered with breastplates. It is said that there is room enough for all those chosen. Here, every day, the slain warriors who will assist Odin in Ragnarök, the gods' final conflict with the giants, arm themselves for battle, and ride forth by the thousands to engage in mock combat on the plains of Asgard. At night they return to Valhalla to feast on roasted boar and drink intoxicating mead.

Okay this all sounds well and good. If I fight and die gloriously in battle I get to go to Valhalla. I'm picturing in my mind a place like heaven except you get to fight all day until that great day we get to fight the giants. But then I read more...

Those who do not get to Valhalla end up in the home of the dead (Hel), a place beneath the underworld (Niflheim), or one of various other places. Those who are lost at sea, for example, are taken to Ægir's hall at the bottom of the sea.

Okay this got me wondering. Hel seems to be spelled a lot like hell. Are they similar? I went to wikipedia for my guide.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_%28realm%29

In Norse mythology, the realm Hel, shares a name with the Hel who rules it. As described in Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda it is a place thronged with the shivering and shadowy spectres of those who have died ingloriously of disease or in old age. Hel is also home to dishonourable people who have broken oaths. Hel is cold and low in the overall order of the universe. It lies beneath Yggdrasil's third root, near Hvergelmir and Náströnd. It is uncertain if Hel and Niflheim are completely different places, if one is part of the other, or if both are names for the same place.

 

Hel is said to be a hall with a roof woven from the spines of serpents which drip poison down onto those who wade in the rivers of blood below. The people who dwell in the halls are given nothing but goat's urine to quench their thirst. The doors of the hall are said to be set in the south, away from Asgard which lies to the north.

 

The hall is surrounded by a river called Gjoll, which is freezing cold and has knives flowing in it.

 

The only way across the river is over a bridge guarded by the giantess Modgud. If a living person steps on the bridge, it rings out as if a thousand men walk across it, yet the dead pass without a sound.

Now why do those who don't get to live nice long lives get taken up to live with odin but instead go to a place that is cold and you get to drink goats urine? Odin still beats jesus, this life is better than burning forever in a lake of fire but it still seems kinda cruel. Why doesn't Odin give these people a better place to go? What about women and children as well? They don't fight wars. Do they have to suffer here too? Is wikipedia not giving me all the facts or am I to believe that most humans on earth will end up here, since very few die gloriously in battle?

 

Oh and what would happen to the wicked warriors who died in battle. Do they still go to valhalla?Please Enlighten me.

[KT45]

Meh no response yet. Well I searched some more on the famous wikipedia and found this stuff.

 

Neiflheim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niflheim

Niflheim ("Land of Mists") is the realm of ice and cold in Norse mythology. It is located north of Ginnungagap and there dwells the hrimthursar (Frost Giants) and here is also located Hel.

 

Niflheim is ruled by the goddess Hel, daughter to Loki by the giantess Angrboda, personally appointed by Odin to rule over Niflheim. Half of her body is normal, while the other half is that of a rotting corpse. Niflheim is broken into several layers. One level designed for heroes and gods, where Hel would preside over the festivities for them. Another is reserved for the elderly, the sick, and those who are unable to die gloriously in battle and enter Valhalla. The lowest level resembled the Christian version of Hell, where the wicked are forced to live forever.

 

 

Oh and I also saw something about sacrifices by hanging but we can talk about that later.

[Ouroboros]

Well, the sacrifices by hanging has been kept in our traditions.

 

The balls and candy in the christmas tree is from that tradition. Sacrifices to the gods.

[Lycorth]

^..^

[KT45]

You ruined my little bit of fun.

 

I was trying to offer up something challenging. Amy was getting boring. Jesus is better because I love him, see look at my story. Yaaawwnnnn!!!! There wasn't anything really new. Oh well if I come up with something else I'll keep writing.