Akheia Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I don't think ignoring him right off is a good idea. He needs boundaries set before that can happen. You don't have to write much--just a quick note that you found his behavior unacceptably aggressive, unloving, undermining, condescending, and domineering, and you do not appreciate his attempt to subvert your marriage or destroy his adult daughter's relationships. Call him out on his manipulative and controlling tactics politely but firmly, and let him know that if he cannot treat you like an adult and back off from your family affairs, you'll have to set healthy boundaries to keep him out of your life. The goal is an icily-polite display of utter revulsion at a boor who lacks all social graces. Your FIL sounds like he's really good at facing anger, disagreement, and aggression--they all sound like a huge part of his religious outlook. He's good at stomping on anybody who dissents. I can just see him in the back room of the church guffawing with the other good ol' boys about how he "done tole his heathen-in-law that he'd tear his butt up! That'll larn him!" But I bet he ain't that good at dealing with contempt and disdain, nor with healthy boundaries, nor with someone who treats him with utter politeness but distance. It doesn't sound like he's had a lot of reining-in in his life, not with that ex-football-player mentality. I really also gently suggest you don't let him have unsupervised access to your kids because if he can't be trusted not to go behind your back with your wife, I don't think he'll magically turn trustworthy around those malleable little minds. And PLEASE make sure your wife is totally on board. She's the weak link at the moment. Her father's put her in a really difficult position, but if she can't stand firm with you against this onslaught, it's hard to have a lot of confidence that you'll come out with your dignity intact. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinprogress Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I'm trying to think long-term here, though. If no boundaries are set, will that come back to haunt me in the future when the in-laws come to visit? When he talks to my wife? When the mother-in-law gets involved and either starts talking to my wife or tries to contact me? Etc. Have you noticed how most people get really angry at your situation? Why don't you? Appeasement is not a solution and the asshole will not ever begin to recognize any boundaries. He should be totally removed from your life, and the chips shall fall where they may. I second this, although only partly his participation in your life depends on him recognizing who the boss is in this situation (not him) and sticking to those boundaries. if he can't toss the bum out. But as to the rest of what I quoted he is totally right you need to get angry and aggressive he won't respect anything less. and ignoring him will encourage things to get even worse. he may even think he has "the spirits in you bound" or some other such nonsense. at the very least respond to both emails and make it crystal clear what your position is and that he needs to back the fuck off. Getting angry would only serve to inflame the FIL sense of righteousness and justice regarding his faith. As a pastor he feels the need to control ("protect") his flock ("the children of god".) as elec's FIL though this seems to be heavily overridden by his need to "protect" his daughter. This man sounds very much like my father and my father FLIPPED his lid when he found out that it rejected Christianity.y father doesn't evn know that I consider myself an atheist now, but I can just imagine his reaction. It would be something like this man fearing his daughter corruption. Elec: i think The best response is a civil, calm, firm but not angry or aggressive response laying down the boundaries for your future relationship. If he can't treat you like a grown up, then he doesn't deserve any future relationship with you, outside of what is necessary insofar as his daughter and your childreb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Damn. I keep going back and forth on this one. Maybe you should go ahead and send a reply ASAP. The more I think about it the more I think your silence will make him think he's got you runnin scared. Seems like the women on here are for you writing him- they're usually right in situations like this. Our male sense tells to say "fuck him" and leave it alone. But he needs to know you aren't afraid of him. I wouldnt write more than 3-4 sentences though. Anything more will appear like an engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Damn. I keep going back and forth on this one. Maybe you should go ahead and send a reply ASAP. The more I think about it the more I think your silence will make him think he's got you runnin scared. Seems like the women on here are for you writing him- they're usually right in situations like this. Our male sense tells to say "fuck him" and leave it alone. But he needs to know you aren't afraid of him. I wouldnt write more than 3-4 sentences though. Anything more will appear like an engagement. Electech could respond to the e-mail, letting his father in-law know that he received it, and tell him that he isn't willing to discuss his beliefs or lack thereof with him as it is none of his business. This allows him to respond without addressing any of the particular points that the father in-law has brought up, cutting off his father in-law's attempt to scare him back into the kingdom at the knees. It's sort of like acknowledging him while at the same time ignoring him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Damn. I keep going back and forth on this one. Maybe you should go ahead and send a reply ASAP. The more I think about it the more I think your silence will make him think he's got you runnin scared. Seems like the women on here are for you writing him- they're usually right in situations like this. Our male sense tells to say "fuck him" and leave it alone. But he needs to know you aren't afraid of him. I wouldnt write more than 3-4 sentences though. Anything more will appear like an engagement. Electech could respond to the e-mail, letting his father in-law know that he received it, and tell him that he isn't willing to discuss his beliefs or lack thereof with him as it is none of his business. This allows him to respond without addressing any of the particular points that the father in-law has brought up, cutting off his father in-law's attempt to scare him back into the kingdom at the knees. It's sort of like acknowledging him while at the same time ignoring him. It is his business though, since you're trying to lead his children into hell. So he may not view it like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akheia Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Electech could respond to the e-mail, letting his father in-law know that he received it, and tell him that he isn't willing to discuss his beliefs or lack thereof with him as it is none of his business. This allows him to respond without addressing any of the particular points that the father in-law has brought up, cutting off his father in-law's attempt to scare him back into the kingdom at the knees. It's sort of like acknowledging him while at the same time ignoring him. I like the cut of your jib. Whatever the note says, it needs to be very short and absolutely NOT discuss the actual religious ideas. The religion isn't the issue at the moment; the problem here is the FIL's outrageously controlling behavior. Elec, you're so sweet and so patient. While half the forum is frothing at the mouth wanting to send the asshat-in-law close-up videos of their junk in mid-slap on a camera lens (the other half lacks some of the equipment, but not the desire), you're being calm and civil and collected. I admire that a lot. Feel free to let us express your inner Poland at this intrusion upon your sovereignty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Centauro Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I am 61 years old, and have dealt with fundies and severely co-dependent people for over 30 years. The last 20 dealing a a severely rabid fundamentalist wife. FWIW, this is what I have learned. 1. Your FIL is gonna be pissed...no matter what happens. Unless of course you come back to the fold. 2. REINFORCE the fact you love your wife and am fully committed. As you have said, they know somewhere in their minds that what they beLieve is a crock, but to keep their world safe, secure and predictable they will fight tooth and nail to maintain that until they have the confidence to "go it alone", so to speak. 3.Be kind, compassionate and polite. It drives Fundies crazy when non Christians are so "Christlike"? 4. Be clear about your boundaries, and firm in maintaining them. There will be no let up from your FIL. If he continues to intrude in your family life, banish him. If your wife chooses to side with him the die is cast. Ignore his mean spiRited emails. Debated these morons is pointless. Set your ground rules and and be firm but kind. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Electech, you deserve a medal for your patience in this situation! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 The goal is an icily-polite display of utter revulsion at a boor who lacks all social graces. Completely agree, even though I'm truly repulsed by icy politeness. He's your children's grandfather, so it's not so easy to just dismiss him out of hand even though that's what he is asking for with his behavior. The situation requires non-confrontational assertiveness for both your wife's and your children's sake. Seems like you get that already Elec, so I'm just offering my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Who cares WHAT he thinks. His thinking ability is highly questionable on a good day. If he thinks he won, maybe thats a good thing and he'll stfu. I agree. He can think whatever he wants. But the line is crossed when he harasses you via email or any other form of communication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Astreja Posted May 25, 2012 Popular Post Share Posted May 25, 2012 A slightly different (and twisted) tack, one you probably shouldn't use but which is good for a vicarious giggle: "Dear Dad: We're having great fun discussing your high-and-mighty e-mails on Ex-Christian.net. Please send more, as they reassure the newly-deconverted that they did the right thing in leaving Christianity. Love, etc." 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackpudd1n Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 A slightly different (and twisted) tack, one you probably shouldn't use but which is good for a vicarious giggle: "Dear Dad: We're having great fun discussing your high-and-mighty e-mails on Ex-Christian.net. Please send more, as they reassure the newly-deconverted that they did the right thing in leaving Christianity. Love, etc." I just spat coffee everywhere! Thanks for the laugh- I needed that! ROFLMAO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Oh, with a link to this thread! Yeah, that's good for a giggle! A nice clear, "This is my choice, and my marriage is between me and my wife." seems in line here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 A slightly different (and twisted) tack, one you probably shouldn't use but which is good for a vicarious giggle: "Dear Dad: We're having great fun discussing your high-and-mighty e-mails on Ex-Christian.net. Please send more, as they reassure the newly-deconverted that they did the right thing in leaving Christianity. Love, etc." Maaaaaaaannn........UGH THIS WOULD FEEL DOWNRIGHT "SINFULLY" GOOD!!!! We've had lots of good 'kiss my ass' options do far. I wish you were more of a prick sometimes ET! Just to fulfil our hedonistic urges! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBluegrassSkeptic Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I know it has been brought up A LOT about how he is grandpa. And that is a very serious issue. Myself, I didn't have any grandparents to associate with growing up until my late teens. The ONLY reason for this was due to difference in views on life and the adults in the family not liking what the other had to say. Now mind you, as the child in the midst of this, I was never affected by THEIR adult problems. So, I really hold a grudge against my parents for depriving me of people that, until the age of about 6, I had wonderfully fond memories of. I was never ever put in the middle of the conflict DIRECTLY. Even when I finally got to spend time with my grandmother (reunited at 10, she died by 18), I was never put in the middle of any conflicts. And I think this is what you need to seriously look at and evaluate. Don't get me wrong her. My grandparents on both sides of the family had their personal beliefs and values they were passionate about, but to memory, never forced such things on me whatsoever. Try to decide if you really truly think FIL will forcefully push his belief sets on your kids. And I am not talking about simple prayers over food. I allow my own parents to do that with my kids in their own homes. I see no ultimate harm simply because my kids and I have discussed this at length as far as what prayer over food is really about. With that said, obviously, you would have to lay out some serious ground rules, but if you are sure you can trust him to keep the problems between him and you, only between him and you...well, why alienate family and put your wife in an even further stressful situation. Vinegar won't necessarily sweeten a deal. And I'm only referring to the kids here. I think sending a short reply without going out of your way to defend your way of life is in order. I would still send an email eviscerating that cocksucker of a pastor of for discussing a private matter in even more detail with FIL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConureDelSol Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 I think the only problem with ignoring him is that he'll be so horribly ticked off by it, that he'll find some way to get to you through your wife and children. Rabid fundies have a way with knowing how to harass people no matter where they go. I know you were trying to rewrite your original letter, but now that I think on it, I think that letter would be entirely too long. With his blinders on he won't even read past the first few sentences. Like others have said, short and sweet will make sure he at least reads a little bit of what you say. Also, if you need any help setting up your email to filter out the FIL's nonsense, I would be MORE than happy to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 OK, here is a first draft of the letter...it was made using some of what I was originally going to email him. Help me shorten it or sweeten it or whatever: Dad, Thank you for expressing your concerns. Nothing has changed from my perspective with regards to my love and responsibility towards my wife and children. My love and care for them will not change, regardless of whether or not I have any specific belief system. At this time, discussions between you and me on religion and faith (including issues related to our marriage, the raising of our children, etc.) will be off-limits, for the purpose of maintaining some sort of mutual peace between us. This is due in part to the perceived impressions of undue intimidation, bullying, and emotional manipulation contained within your two emails to me. I know the events of the past few weeks have put you off-guard, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt in regards to these emails, but it would be wise for you to know how your emails do in fact come across. If there is a point down the road that you would like to communicate with me on these issues with all due respect, courtesy, and reasonableness, as an adult would converse with another adult, then I will consider it. As you are not in a position of authority over me, my wife, our children, or our marriage, I am asking you to respect the boundaries placed here. In order to avoid what may appear to be an attempt to undermine my place as <wife>'s husband, or an attempt to manipulate <wife>'s emotions, I would suggest sending your emails only to me and not carbon-copying <wife>. Otherwise the impression given is that you may be trying to pit <wife> against me, her husband. She has indicated to me that she would like to be left out of the middle, and I would like for both of us to respect her wishes in that regard. Jeremy Thanks, everyone, for your opinions and thoughts on all this! It's great just to be able to converse with people about everything. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SusanStoHeli Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 That is perfect! Send it soon. And when you're frustrated with him, or wife, you can let that fantasy of pointing him at this thread drift across your mind, to diminish stress and tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 OK, here is a first draft of the letter...it was made using some of what I was originally going to email him. Help me shorten it or sweeten it or whatever: Dad, Thank you for expressing your concerns. Nothing has changed from my perspective with regards to my love and responsibility towards my wife and children. My love and care for them will not change, regardless of whether or not I have any specific belief system. At this time, discussions between you and me on religion and faith (including issues related to our marriage, the raising of our children, etc.) will be off-limits. I know the events of the past few weeks have put you off-guard, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If there is a point down the road that you would like to communicate with me on these issues with all due respect, courtesy, and reasonableness, then I will consider it. As you are not in a position of authority over me, my wife, our children, or our marriage, I am asking you to respect the boundaries placed here. Jeremy Thanks, everyone, for your opinions and thoughts on all this! It's great just to be able to converse with people about everything. How I would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinprogress Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 i think this is great, its calm, and reasonable, and tells him how his letters come across without accusing him of doing it on purpose and starting more problems. i'd send it as is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electech98 Posted May 25, 2012 Author Share Posted May 25, 2012 OK, here is a first draft of the letter...it was made using some of what I was originally going to email him. Help me shorten it or sweeten it or whatever: Dad, Thank you for expressing your concerns. Nothing has changed from my perspective with regards to my love and responsibility towards my wife and children. My love and care for them will not change, regardless of whether or not I have any specific belief system. At this time, discussions between you and me on religion and faith (including issues related to our marriage, the raising of our children, etc.) will be off-limits. I know the events of the past few weeks have put you off-guard, so I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If there is a point down the road that you would like to communicate with me on these issues with all due respect, courtesy, and reasonableness, then I will consider it. As you are not in a position of authority over me, my wife, our children, or our marriage, I am asking you to respect the boundaries placed here. Jeremy Thanks, everyone, for your opinions and thoughts on all this! It's great just to be able to converse with people about everything. How I would do it. So, leaving the option to bring up the impressions of bullying etc. for future emails if required? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinprogress Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 So, leaving the option to bring up the impressions of bullying etc. for future emails if required? definitely. Especially as he is similar to my own father: when i brought up how my father treats my boyfriend and I like children, he GENUINELY had no idea that he was doing so. I think it's important to make him aware of it in a none accusatory way, which you have done here. Of course, HE might still TAKE it in an accusatory way, but i think that anyone else reading it will see otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 Don't get me wrong, the original is great. I just think brevity is key, and pointing out to bully that they are a bully usually backfires IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahinprogress Posted May 25, 2012 Share Posted May 25, 2012 oops, read that wrong! im for leaving it in the first email. EDIT: but even if you remove the first part abouthow he comes off sounding, i think you should definitely leave in the part about yur wife not wanting to be put in the middle and having future emails addressed ONLY to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue elephant Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 It is excellent that your wife has come to the point where she doesn't want to be caught in the middle! However, are you still intending to include something about future emails between hime and you? Could prolong the nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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