Vaccine awareness 😉

[Joshpantera]

As for Florida, we've been watching the charts and it does look like entering September the delta variant spike is already trending back down. 

 

[freshstart]

8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So more update: Spoke to the doctor. He thinks it was likely the jab that caused it because migraines are related to inflammatory forces and the 2nd jab does cause a decent inflammatory response. However its normal and nothing to be concerned about, especially since the last two days I've been fine. He thinks I'm now out of the reaction period.

For me, headache lasted off-and-on for weeks, but finally went away.  That was a common reaction among my family members.  It should still be reported as a vaccine reaction. You can do that here: https://vaers.hhs.gov/

Although, not sure if you need to be a US citizen to do that?

 

14 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

I've lost another good surfing buddy. He was only 43. I don't know if he was vaccinated or not. But he got covid and was hospitalized and died in a very short period of time. Leaving behind a wife and three daughters. I'm going to ask around and see if anyone knows if he was vaccinated or not. 

I'm so sorry to hear this .

[freshstart]

42 minutes ago, Joshpantera said:

As for Florida, we've been watching the charts and it does looks like entering September the delta variant spike is already trending back down. 

Hmmm.  This is not what I'm seeing.  What source do you use?  I use https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ which shows a very sharp increase in active cases.  Seems like there is more of a see-saw trend with overall increase. 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

@Joshpantera I'm sorry for your loss. It sucks. It really does, this virus kills so fast if it gets in the right person.

 

I wish my parents would get the shot. Apparently someone around here is giving an alternative treatment for those that become infected. My dad told me about it. I think its that stuff they were trying to treat it with last year. 

 

Next morning after the shot. My arm is really sore and feels weak like I expected. Had a slight headache earlier. And I feel lethargic. Same as last time. Other than that I'm good. 

 

[LogicalFallacy]

Earlier in this thread we were discussing whether masks help slow the spread of Covid. We have a new large study:

 

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19 (nbcnews.com)

 

A link to the actual study for those so inclined to delve into the methods etc

 

Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf (poverty-action.org) 

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

4 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Earlier in this thread we were discussing whether masks help slow the spread of Covid. We have a new large study:

 

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19 (nbcnews.com)

 

A link to the actual study for those so inclined to delve into the methods etc

 

Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf (poverty-action.org) 

 

 

If you can distribute masks and get people to wear them, do they work?" 

 

^ taken from article ^

 

This is the trick.

 

I dont think any of us doubt that IF everyone wore masks that it would cut down the spread of germs. I saw that last year. Other than my experience getting covid I didn't get sick with anything last year other than allergies. 

 

The problem is getting EVERYONE to wear them. And possibly just important is getting them to wear them correctly. Everyone is sick of wearing masks and especially here in the south there aren't many people wearing them anymore. 

 

On top of that, what are we to do about the potential for contracting covid from an animal. Say we all wear masks for the next 4 years, we all get vaccinated, and we get numbers down to manageable lows. Low enough for us to feel safe again. We tak off the masks and boom. We start getting flare up everywhere and they find that it's from the animal population? Do we wear masks the rest of our lives then? Ugh I hope not. 

 

I'm not saying we shouldn't wear masks. But if we don't all wear masks. Its almost pointless. 

[Joshpantera]

12 hours ago, freshstart said:

Hmmm.  This is not what I'm seeing.  What source do you use?  I use https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ which shows a very sharp increase in active cases.  Seems like there is more of a see-saw trend with overall increase. 

 

 

It's the same data everyone is using. The new daily cases from I assume the big delta spike has already peaked and started trending down on both charts. Looks like the projections of a sharp, but short lived spike in new cases is finally starting to pan out and reveal itself. 

 

But the bigger issue is the problem of continuous variants and new spikes, short lived or otherwise. That seems to be the issue we'll be facing for years to come. There's several people that I have business relations with in town that got covid this time around after dodging it previously. I know for sure the anti-vax nutter fundie wasn't vaccinated. The others I'm not sure of. But I'll be asking when they return to work. If they survive. 

 

I feel good enough about hedging my bets on getting the Moderna vaccine. The nutters think I've taken the mark of the beast, and I'll drop dead with everyone else when the genocidal conspiracy drug kick's in, but, meh, fuck'em all. They can kiss my ass and keep praying to an imaginary jesus for the end of days to come soon. If these vaccines can help thwart this spike and future spikes then ok. If not, I'm not as protected as I hoped for. It will be what it will be. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

9 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

@Joshpantera I'm sorry for your loss. It sucks. It really does, this virus kills so fast if it gets in the right person.

 

I wish my parents would get the shot. Apparently someone around here is giving an alternative treatment for those that become infected. My dad told me about it. I think its that stuff they were trying to treat it with last year. 

 

Next morning after the shot. My arm is really sore and feels weak like I expected. Had a slight headache earlier. And I feel lethargic. Same as last time. Other than that I'm good. 

 

 

I had some fatigue for a few days after the fever conditions. But when it was gone, it was just gone. Never to be seen again. 

[Joshpantera]

23 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

Earlier in this thread we were discussing whether masks help slow the spread of Covid. We have a new large study:

 

Largest study of masks yet details their importance in fighting Covid-19 (nbcnews.com)

 

A link to the actual study for those so inclined to delve into the methods etc

 

Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf (poverty-action.org) 

 

 

Slow the spread is being conflated with stopping the spread in the above post.

 

It may slow the spread to some degree but the argument is that these masks haven't, nor can they stop the spread. For X reasons. It can be slowed by factors and yet never go away. Or take a dam long time to go away regardless of masks. The reasons cited previously range from the transmission anyways, the virus crossing species and basically getting out of our control altogether, not being able to get everyone vaccinated within a very short period of time, and all other factors that go into it. 

[LogicalFallacy]

2 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

Slow the spread is being conflated with stopping the spread in the above post.

 

It may slow the spread to some degree but the argument is that these masks haven't, nor can they stop the spread. 

 

Who is arguing they can stop it completely? That isn't a strawman over there on the field is it?

 

If anyone is arguing that vaccines and masks and prayer can 100% stop covid they are wrong, but that would be missing the point. And here in this thread it would be a strawman.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

8 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Who is arguing they can stop it completely? That isn't a strawman over there on the field is it?

 

If anyone is arguing that vaccines and masks and prayer can 100% stop covid they are wrong, but that would be missing the point. And here in this thread it would be a strawman.

 

There is also the argument here that if everyone doesn't wear them and wear them properly then they aren't really doing any good. That's what makes mask wearing useless right now in this area. If there are only 10 people in a store filled with 100 plus people, the masks arent doing much at all. I agree that if everyone would wear them that it would be a good thing. It's just not happening here right now. 

 

I literally saw a fundy friend post a meme that said if God says it's your time there is no amount of masks or handsanitizer that's going to save you. 

 

That's the type of mentality that we are dealing with from the fundy Christians around here. My mom said, " If it's your time to go it's your time. We ain't gonna die until the good lord wants us to. "

 

Ugh. Ya see logical. That's what we are dealing with here. I know multiple people that are in that mind set. And they are fighting mad about possibly being forced to take the vaccine. If you've heard a conspiracy about the vaccine. I guarantee I know someone that believes it as gospel truth. Even down to the "it's gonna kill you in 3-5 years" BS. I've heard it all. Nanobots, population reduction, magnets sticking injection sites, chips, big pharma conspiracies, Govt. Conspiracies, I'm surrounded by stupid here. Atleast I just wanted to see better numbers before I took it. Better numbers came out and now I support the vaccine. I even support mask wearing if everyone would do it. 

[Joshpantera]

16 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

 

Who is arguing they can stop it completely? That isn't a strawman over there on the field is it?

 

If anyone is arguing that vaccines and masks and prayer can 100% stop covid they are wrong, but that would be missing the point. And here in this thread it would be a strawman.

 

The best thing would be for you to clarify what you think the point is. Then we can go from there. 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

Final update on my second dose. Only had soreness and a mild headache. Everything has cleared up. No other issues. I'll let ya know if anything weird happens. 

[LogicalFallacy]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:25 AM, Joshpantera said:

 

The best thing would be for you to clarify what you think the point is. Then we can go from there. 

 

Well I'm confused. I advocate mask wearing based on evidence that it slows the spread of the disease (And thus helps in a number of areas such as the medical system, lessening impact on the economy etc

 

So in response to my post you said: "It may slow the spread to some degree but the argument is that these masks haven't, nor can they stop the spread. For X reasons. It can be slowed by factors and yet never go away"

 

So, the POINT, as referred to above I think is that while masks do not stop the virus, they, in conjunction with other tools such as vaccines and lockdowns, help slow the spread and protect the population therefore being a net benefit.

 

So saying that masks don't "stop" the virus I think misses the point.

 

Have I missed the point? That's my point, care to clarify what you think the point is?  

[Joshpantera]

15 hours ago, LogicalFallacy said:

So, the POINT, as referred to above I think is that while masks do not stop the virus, they, in conjunction with other tools such as vaccines and lockdowns, help slow the spread and protect the population therefore being a net benefit.

 

My point is that I'm done with the masks. I'm vaccinated. Could I spread it anyways, yes. But so what? It's in the air. It's running through wild animals. Mutations are not going to stop any time soon. I've determined that it's a situation where people have to determine what they are going to do as individuals and mandates and forcing people into things isn't going to produce better results than what we've seen so far. 

 

If we could stop it, great. 

 

But we can't. 

 

So get ready for a potentially long, long, long ride. I guess some people are facing the possibility of masking themselves for potentially the rest of their lives. Have a nice life then, folks. I won't be joining you. 

[Margee]

21 hours ago, Joshpantera said:

 

My point is that I'm done with the masks. I'm vaccinated. Could I spread it anyways, yes. But so what? It's in the air. It's running through wild animals. Mutations are not going to stop any time soon. I've determined that it's a situation where people have to determine what they are going to do as individuals and mandates and forcing people into things isn't going to produce better results than what we've seen so far. 

 

If we could stop it, great. 

 

But we can't. 

 

So get ready for a potentially long, long, long ride. I guess some people are facing the possibility of masking themselves for potentially the rest of their lives. Have a nice life then, folks. I won't be joining you. 

Josh I think you would love listening to Zach Bush, M.D. He studies evolution, the microbiome, bacteria, soil and all the different viruses in the human species.. (without any political gains) And he's not anti-mask, anti vaccine but what he says makes so much sense to me.  And no, I do not trust every medical doctors opinion.  I like to listen to those who study evolution and this guy does. I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. 

 

 

[Joshpantera]

Thank you @Margee

 

I am enjoying this! Especially 9:00 forward. More perspective. 

 

 

[mwc]

     The US has a long history of mandating vaccinations.  Back to its founding.  It's just that it normally applies to us as children as a prerequisite to admission to school so we don't tend to think much of it as adults.  These sorts of vaccine requirements go back to the 1800's and were when we used live virus in the vaccines so it was possible to actually get the disease from the cure.  It took years to get any level of compliance and, really, it wasn't until about 100 years later when clear mandates and enforcement happened that kids were actually properly vaccinated.  People simply do not willingly take vaccines without fairly strict mandates is the unfortunate reality and history reflects this.  It would be nice if this wasn't the case but it is.

 

          mwc

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:09 AM, mwc said:

     The US has a long history of mandating vaccinations.  Back to its founding.  It's just that it normally applies to us as children as a prerequisite to admission to school so we don't tend to think much of it as adults.  These sorts of vaccine requirements go back to the 1800's and were when we used live virus in the vaccines so it was possible to actually get the disease from the cure.  It took years to get any level of compliance and, really, it wasn't until about 100 years later when clear mandates and enforcement happened that kids were actually properly vaccinated.  People simply do not willingly take vaccines without fairly strict mandates is the unfortunate reality and history reflects this.  It would be nice if this wasn't the case but it is.

 

          mwc

 

I can completely understand it with this vaccine in particular tho. In my opinion it isn't effective enough to warrant mandates. If it was the cure that they initially portrayed it to be I'd be more comfortable with a mandate. But it isn't. Realistically about 60% effective at stopping the virus. More so if you've already had the virus and the vaccine. Key words like "If" you still get the virus it "might" lessen severity of symptoms. Ifs and mights aren't good enough to force it on someone. 

 

I got it and for the time being I'm glad I did. But my ex got the vaccine and still caught covid. So meh. I think people would want to get it if it was more effective. 

[mwc]

16 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I can completely understand it with this vaccine in particular tho. In my opinion it isn't effective enough to warrant mandates. If it was the cure that they initially portrayed it to be I'd be more comfortable with a mandate. But it isn't. Realistically about 60% effective at stopping the virus. More so if you've already had the virus and the vaccine. Key words like "If" you still get the virus it "might" lessen severity of symptoms. Ifs and mights aren't good enough to force it on someone. 

 

I got it and for the time being I'm glad I did. But my ex got the vaccine and still caught covid. So meh. I think people would want to get it if it was more effective. 

     I'm going to disagree.  Here's just a taste: Guardian article:

Quote

 

Vaccination reduces the risk of dying or being hospitalised with Covid-19 by 90%, a French study of 22.6 million people over the age of 50 has found.

 

The research published on Monday also found that vaccines appear to protect against the worst effects of the most prevalent virus strain, the Delta variant.

 

“This means that those who are vaccinated are nine times less at risk of being hospitalised or dying from Covid-19 than those who have not been vaccinated,” the epidemiologist Mahmoud Zureik, who oversaw the research, told Agence France-Presse.

 

     Those numbers are higher that what our CDC reports but they may be including simply getting infected (I don't recall).  Anyhow, the CDC mentions a rate around 6 times.  Nonetheless, it's still a considerable difference than just taking your chances without a vaccine or hoping that you are one the the people that get an easy case then develop a "natural" immunity (which has been shown to not develop in everyone that has gotten the virus...I'd have to check but I want to say it's close to a third don't develop any or get a very weak natural immunity compared to the nearly universally strong response the vaccines provide).

 

          mwc

 

[TABA]

I think these trends from the state's COVID dashboard here in WV are probably typical, and a good illustration of why being vaccinated is so much better than not...

 

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

I choose the right to choose. I am choosing to take the vaccine. If someone else chooses not to. That's none of my business. I've said all I'm gonna say to my friends and family trying to get them to take it. I've lost some friends, probably because they chose not to take the vaccine. But in the end. It was their choice.

[☆ DarkBishop ☆]

10 hours ago, mwc said:

I'm going to disagree.  Here's just a taste: Guardian article

 

This article is flawed in a couple ways. 

 

1. It's only on peeps over 50

2. They only conducted the study for 1 month after the delta variant was discovered. 

 

I'll be Interested to see what comes out next. From what I've read and seen from my friends that have got delta is that this variant seems to be more harmful to younger people under 50. One friend died she was 38, another died he was 38 as well, and another was hospitalized but recovered, he was 41. All unvaccinated as far as I know. 

 

TABA s numbers from WV look promising if I only trusted any American published findings right now. I'm more confident in the French study you just posted and the isreali study I posted a couple months ago than anything from the states. I feel like the media here is basically like the Bible in ancient times. Being twisted to suit the politics and move the people. I do hope they are correct because it looks good.

[mwc]

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

 

This article is flawed in a couple ways. 

 

1. It's only on peeps over 50

2. They only conducted the study for 1 month after the delta variant was discovered. 

     How are these flaws?  They're pointing out the llmits of this particular research.  Given these they then provide their findings.

 

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I'll be Interested to see what comes out next. From what I've read and seen from my friends that have got delta is that this variant seems to be more harmful to younger people under 50. One friend died she was 38, another died he was 38 as well, and another was hospitalized but recovered, he was 41. All unvaccinated as far as I know. 

     I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take away from this.  Not being vaxxed they don't really seem to apply here.

 

12 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

TABA s numbers from WV look promising if I only trusted any American published findings right now. I'm more confident in the French study you just posted and the isreali study I posted a couple months ago than anything from the states. I feel like the media here is basically like the Bible in ancient times. Being twisted to suit the politics and move the people. I do hope they are correct because it looks good.

     Cheer up.  Life isn't that bad.

 

          mwc

 

[LogicalFallacy]

17 hours ago, DarkBishop said:

I choose the right to choose. I am choosing to take the vaccine. If someone else chooses not to. That's none of my business. I've said all I'm gonna say to my friends and family trying to get them to take it. I've lost some friends, probably because they chose not to take the vaccine. But in the end. It was their choice.

 

True. But I also choose the right not to be infected and affected by people who have chosen not to take the vaccine. For this reason I support the rights of business to choose not to have unvaccinated people working for them, and I support the rights of those who don't want to work next to those who are unvaccinated.

 

Whenever I hear the "my body my choice" rights argument being made here in NZ I never hear the corresponding talk about responsibility and consequences.

 

So yes, it is anybody's choice whether they get the vaccine, and no one should be forced to get it, but if a person choses not to get it then don't come near me, don't work in my workplace, and don't infect my friends and family.

 

People who don't get vaccinated reminds me of the joke (Ok its religious but gets the point across)

 

A person dies of covid and ends up at the pearly gates and is taken to meet God.

They ask God why he didn't cure them of covid.

God says: I sent you experts telling you to lockdown and isolate, I sent you pharmacies to create vaccines to protect you, I sent doctors and nurses to care for you! Instead you said the vaccines were fake, and used disinfectant as a cure! What more did you want me to do!?