My Father Is Becoming A Pastor

[Guest Valk0010]

My fathers response:

 

Think about what your saying. Your comparing the actions and determination of cultural groups as the qualification of the moral absolutes. The site gives a clear concise description of moral absolutes in terms which on an individual level which are intrinsically understood. Your arguing that a cultural groups historically married off young children and this "by today's definition." would be defined differently. The questions are not about what some group did culturally at sometime, an if you hold to the argument you are making, that cultural laws on morals are not absolute (because they change over time,) then in one sense you are agreeing with the argument, while at the same time you are using a principle of intrinsic absolute understanding to qualify your defense against a question on absolutes, which you are skirting. if your defend the idea that there is nor absolute definition of moral right and wrong, then you cannot condemn anyone for anything. Think about that. Why is RAPE wrong? If a group moves into power and saying RAPE is legal, does that change the principle that RAPE is wrong?

Problem with objective morals for the believer is it cuts both ways. Was the Russian military wrong for allowing Russian soldiers to rape German women after taking over berlin. Most people would say yes to that. But at the same time, they write it off, when god says to do it in the Old Testament.

 

Also there is another question, how could a Omniscient and omnibenevolent god, do one thing and call it correct, like he did in the OT, and have us realize that actions like that are wrong. If we have absolute moral ethics, we wouldn't call people like Mao wrong.

[Zephie]

Couldn't you just point out that God commanded rape or something like that in the OT? Why can't the man respect your views? He's being a poo-head.

[sarahinprogress]

Couldn't you just point out that God commanded rape or something like that in the OT? Why can't the man respect your views? He's being a poo-head.

 

I could but he would just respond with "it's gods right to do with us as he wills"

[electech98]

Morality never comes from ancient documents...morality is only reflected in documents (ancient and modern) as relating to a people at the time.

 

Cultures have almost always generally agreed that murder, etc. is wrong WITHOUT the help of the Bible.

 

And yet, the Bible is a clear indicator of what the people back then thought was moral and not. For example: 1) slavery, 2) forcing a rapist to marry the victim, 3) the murder of anyone caught breaking commandments in the slightest of ways, 4) etc. etc. All these things we would consider grossly immoral today.

 

Morals tend to improve over time as societies advance in understanding, communication, technologies, research, etc.

 

And that sight is very much confusing TRUTH with MORALS. They are different.

[Zephie]

Couldn't you just point out that God commanded rape or something like that in the OT? Why can't the man respect your views? He's being a poo-head.

 

I could but he would just respond with "it's gods right to do with us as he wills"

 

Ouch. So much for a loving god. Guess it wouldn't do any good to tell him that clearly it's god's will that you don't believe in a god...eh...I hope you can get out of there soon. Feeling trapped and manipulated like that sucks big time.

[electech98]

Also, please watch this series:

 

Part 1:

 

[electech98]

Part 2:

 

[electech98]

Part 3:

 

[Guest Valk0010]

Couldn't you just point out that God commanded rape or something like that in the OT? Why can't the man respect your views? He's being a poo-head.

 

I could but he would just respond with "it's gods right to do with us as he wills"

Couldn't you just point out that God commanded rape or something like that in the OT? Why can't the man respect your views? He's being a poo-head.

 

I could but he would just respond with "it's gods right to do with us as he wills"

My response would be, to bring up the arguement from authority fallacy. Authority doesn't imply correctness.

 

As well, if he will say that bring up the part of the euypthro dilemma about god's will making ethics by fiat and the conclusions one has to make by that. Like it being pointless to say god is good. Another thought is, how can we determining anything to be good. George tiller could be a saint, if god's ethics are by fiat. You can't learn anything about how to live as a person.

[sarahinprogress]

thank you everyone for your thoughts/support, and thank you electech for the vids!

[sarahinprogress]

Morality never comes from ancient documents...morality is only reflected in documents (ancient and modern) as relating to a people at the time.

 

Cultures have almost always generally agreed that murder, etc. is wrong WITHOUT the help of the Bible.

 

And yet, the Bible is a clear indicator of what the people back then thought was moral and not. For example: 1) slavery, 2) forcing a rapist to marry the victim, 3) the murder of anyone caught breaking commandments in the slightest of ways, 4) etc. etc. All these things we would consider grossly immoral today.

 

Morals tend to improve over time as societies advance in understanding, communication, technologies, research, etc.

 

And that sight is very much confusing TRUTH with MORALS. They are different.

 

 

What i found interesting (and slightly insidious) is that the designer of this website is clearly insisting that the Bible god is true, and therefore X, Y, and Z, without stating that the bible itself is true.

 

I have no objection to people claiming there is a god, just so long as said god is not a crazy meglomaniac child slayer who imposes his will on me and then punishes me for it.

 

 

 

EDIT: actually is more like X, Y and Z and therefore the bible god exists

[mymistake]

Dad just posted this on my FB wall: http://www.proofthat...s.org/index.php

 

 

with the message: would like to know what you think about the proof section of this site.

 

Wow. That section on absolute truth is annoying, deceptive and wrong. It's constantly using the false dilemma fallacy and an annoying menu system to force you down a path.

 

Did I mention is was annoying?

 

Typical Christian tricks.

[Blue elephant]

I am really concerned because this argument is making you feel dreadful. Is there someone you can go to for support and comfort at this stage?

 

You don't seem to be swayed by his arguments and have the intuitive sense that they are deceitful.

 

The discussion is really playing around with words and twisting concepts to justify a forgone conclusion. You might want to think about how you can best close this discussion with your father down. Or get out of there in some way, even if it is just temporarily.

 

Reminds me of some of the discussions that bullies and perpetrators of domestic violence may have with their victims. ie. victim ends up agreeing that the tiny speck of dust on top of the picture frame is 'just not good enough'.

 

Once you get out of this environment on a long term basis, this sort of approach will still be used to try and haul you back in. So be prepared.

 

Once again, please seek some support from friends and people around you straight away!

[sarahinprogress]

AAAAnd fathers response to: why would god force a woman to marry her rapist

 

http://www.equip.org...rry-her-rapist-

 

 

EDIT: prefaced by this: "Thank you for being more open. I don't have all the answers, but I want you to think about what you are committing your self to in your arguments and stated belief. Take a look at this link.."

[sarahinprogress]

I really dont know how to shut down this conversation.

My father will never stop, i know this. But i feel like if i just sit there and take it i am weak, i have done that for so long.

I dont know how to stop this.

[Guest Valk0010]

AAAAnd fathers response to: why would god force a woman to marry her rapist

 

http://www.equip.org...rry-her-rapist-

Some people can't be reasoned with, egads, that was a insane response.

 

Saying that is the decision making of a all loving, all knowing and all powerful god is insane and sort of just still fits into the absurdity that the Christians ask us believe of authority=correctness. So somehow god is benevolent for doing that, yet he creates the world so that the jewish people would have to go through those insane laws. Blegh insane.

[Guest Valk0010]

I really dont know how to shut down this conversation.

My father will never stop, i know this. But i feel like if i just sit there and take it i am weak, i have done that for so long.

I dont know how to stop this.

Move out and stop talking to him. He will either have a heart and get it, if he doesn't, it would be better for you to not be around him.

[jdog]

I'm feeling very self-destructive and like I want to drive my car into a pole.

I would never kill myself. But I am full of thoughts of it today.

 

Yeah I understand that feeling. I have been there. I have also had depression that leads to similar thoughts.

All this shit you are going through is NOT worth doing something so drastic and I think you know that anyway. You know you have people on your side here.

 

You will be out of this situation soon. You just need distance from your parents and it will happen. Hang in there.

 

I also advise to block your parents from posting on your FB wall or from receiving any kind of written material from your father. It is just going to cause anxiety and frustration for you.

[blackpudd1n]

Duckie, this is just awful. Your dad is a toxic person. He is trying to break you- don't let him. If you haven't already, start getting your plan in place to leave. All this mental anguish and stress will soon start affecting your physical helath, if it hasn't already. You MUST get out, as soon as possible.

[sarahinprogress]

One last latest before i stop responding:

• ME:If "the murder of men woman and children in scripture are not justifiable as good, righteous or any other logically consistent argument based on absolute truth" why would god command it? (in quotes is his response to my questioning the genocides in the OT)
  
• Dad: I do not know. Nor do I believe that any true Christian can answer your question since they are not God. Why would a powerful god who made all things allow the evil which is found in the world? If your honest you have to answer, I don't know. Now I can tell you what the Bible says, I cannot tell you why God does what He does.
  
• Me:And that is one of my biggest issues. If im not suppsed to accept "because i said so" as an explanation from any human, why is god exempt from that? Why should i just "trust and obey" something i dont understand?
  
• Dad: I would never ask you to do that.
  

[Guest Valk0010]

One last latest before i stop responding:

• ME:If "the murder of men woman and children in scripture are not justifiable as good, righteous or any other logically consistent argument based on absolute truth" why would god command it? (in quotes is his response to my questioning the genocides in the OT)
  
• Dad: I do not know. Nor do I believe that any true Christian can answer your question since they are not God. Why would a powerful god who made all things allow the evil which is found in the world? If your honest you have to answer, I don't know. Now I can tell you what the Bible says, I cannot tell you why God does what He does.
  
• Me:And that is one of my biggest issues. If im not suppsed to accept "because i said so" as an explanation from any human, why is god exempt from that? Why should i just "trust and obey" something i dont understand?
  
• Dad: I would never ask you to do that.
  

He might get the point eventually, but you need to get your head together before you go another round with him. Where your head is at, right now, with talking about things like, wanting to run the car into a tree isn't good.

[sarahinprogress]

Also, please watch this series:

 

 

Watched the first video and part of the second. Have class tonight, and have been watching during breaks, so will have to rewatch before i can comment.

but so far i really appreciate these. I have this video maker in my list of stuff to check out, so i def will have to go check some more of his stuff out.

[electech98]

AAAAnd fathers response to: why would god force a woman to marry her rapist

 

http://www.equip.org...rry-her-rapist-

 

 

EDIT: prefaced by this: "Thank you for being more open. I don't have all the answers, but I want you to think about what you are committing your self to in your arguments and stated belief. Take a look at this link.."

I see.

 

1) So, the all-powerful and sovereign God of the universe decides not to steer society in a way that would start treating women with respect and as equals, but has to kow-tow to the unjust societal discrimination against women that makes women the equivalent of "property", and gives the victim of rape the wonderful privilege of being joined together forever in marital hell to her rapist. Way to teach those men, God!

 

2) This is just one example of pig-headed men making "God" and his commands in their own image.

[sarahinprogress]

AAAAnd fathers response to: why would god force a woman to marry her rapist

 

http://www.equip.org...rry-her-rapist-

 

 

EDIT: prefaced by this: "Thank you for being more open. I don't have all the answers, but I want you to think about what you are committing your self to in your arguments and stated belief. Take a look at this link.."

I see.

 

1) So, the all-powerful and sovereign God of the universe decides not to steer society in a way that would start treating women with respect and as equals, but has to kow-tow to the unjust societal discrimination against women that makes women the equivalent of "property", and gives the victim of rape the wonderful privilege of being joined together forever in marital hell to her rapist. Way to teach those men, God!

 

2) This is just one example of pig-headed men making "God" and his commands in their own image.

 

 

LOL! that's pretty much exactly what i said back to him!

[mymistake]

AAAAnd fathers response to: why would god force a woman to marry her rapist

 

http://www.equip.org...rry-her-rapist-

 

I love this one. " . . . and in the culture of the day . . . "

 

God dictates to that culture. You accept what God says or else it's death. And just to show who is boss God strikes a lot of people down. But suddenly God is bound by the culture of that day? This is wack. These arguments are obviously false. If God didn't want a rape victim to have to marry her attacker then God would have dictated other arangements and everyone would have had to obey or die. And why were there rapists in the first place? Why didn't God strike rapists down like he struck down people he didn't like in the Old Testament?

 

God is a scumbag troll.