My Father Is Becoming A Pastor

[sarahinprogress]

Well, i lied about no saying anything else, but it seems like my dad may be actually starting to hear what im saying and accept that i am not going to just submit to his view, that i have my own view now....so...thats good.

[sarahinprogress]

Talked to my dad a bit tonight and had an actual converstation.

 

Tried to tell him about some of the contradictions im finding in scripture but he is him, so of course nothing stuck.

 

 

He also told me he thinks the bible is 98% accurate and any discrepancies therein are not significant since the over arching message remains the same:

This when i was telling him about the inconsistencies in the resurrection stories.

He said that they might all say different things, but probably just the same story told from different perspectives. And anyways, they all say Christ was gone and rose and appeared.

 

it makes it far more difficult to have a discussion about discrepancies if he doesnt CARE about that.

 

ugh

 

EDIT: also talked about the flat earth, to which his response was "he stretches the north and hangs the earth on nothing"

 

just....

 

 

My mother says "well of course your going to find inconsistancies if you go looking for them!" WHAT?>?!

[Guest Valk0010]

Usually with police reports, you find generally, you won't get problems like. He was black and wearing a blue shirt according to one witness and he was white and wearing polka dots according to another witness. That is what you get with the gospels.

[Guest Valk0010]

Also it may not hurt to ask him, how he thinks the bible is written. I would bet a dollar he says, it was men inspired by the holy spirit. If that is the case, then the 98 percent bit makes no sense. And if its just written by men alone, why should we bother at all believing it?

[sarahinprogress]

I did say something along those lines and his response was that the base message was inspired, but the superficial inconsistencies are products of man. SO the message is from god, and is almost perfect, but the imperfect parts are from man, or our misunderstanding of what was intended.

[Guest Valk0010]

I did say something along those lines and his response was that the base message was inspired, but the superficial inconsistencies are products of man. SO the message is from god, and is almost perfect, but the imperfect parts are from man, or our misunderstanding of what was intended.

That is called, having your cake and and eating it too.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_one%27s_cake_and_eat_it_too

[Guest Valk0010]

http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/cru-chart.html

 

Maybe helpful...

[sarahinprogress]

http://www.outreachj.../cru-chart.html

 

Maybe helpful...

 

 

oooooo thank you! That's very interesting.

[Guest Valk0010]

Something else that might be helpful

 

 

The nuts and bolts of Slavoj's arguement is that christianity is exactly like any ideology you could find and that to really live out the christian gospel its best to be a nonbeliever. It starts at 6:00.

 

 

 

This one starts around 6:30

[Rando]

Hi Duckiegirl,

 

Your story is heartbreaking from this father's perspective.....I have a 28 year old daughter that I raised in the charismatic faith. When I was 40, a part time music minister and christian radio dee jay (and she was 16), I lost my faith (long story), and found my brain again. I'm happy to say that my daughter is doing great in spite of my former fundy teachings and restrictions. She occasionally reminds me about the scary churches I dragged her to, shows I didn't let her watch, etc, but she forgives me.....

 

Anyway, my relationship with my daughter was one of the first things that made me start really questioning my faith. I knew I would never stop loving her, and no mater what she did I would never want some horrible eternal punishment for her. I couldn't imagine that I could be a better, more loving father that the god of the bible. I knew all the bs about his ways being beyond our understanding, requirements for being holy before god, yada, yada....but that does not compare with the real love I had for her.

 

I feel really pissed when I read about what your father is doing, and I hope that he comes to his senses. Even knowing the way I believed and acted at one time, it's still hard to understand how a bunch of oral-tradition stories about a made-up tribal god could make modern, educated people hurt and alienate the people they love.

 

I agree with the earlier posts, it will be so much better when you leave. I hope one day your father has if not a conversion, at least a more open mind.

 

Randy

[SusanStoHeli]

One thing for talking to your dad - don't expect him to deconvert. Don't expect him to change his faith. He won't. He's not going to see inconsistencies, because he can't think that way or he'll go to hell. Instead of talking about inconsistencies, I'd work on tolerance - he has his beliefs, and believes in them solidly - you have your beliefs, and they deserve equal respect - he doesn't have to respect your beliefs, but he should respect your right to believe them. You are an adult, you make your own decisions, find your own path - if a lifetime of church and his teachings aren't enough to guide you eventually to the right path, that's your choice, he's more than had his say, during your entire childhood, and trying to force you as an adult will only push you further away. Ask where it says in the Bible that adults should be forced to go to church, talk about free will, etc. Maybe, if you've got it on top of your head, talk about some biblical story where a son found Jesus and defied his father to follow - to point out that as an adult, you should be following what you think is right.

[sarahinprogress]

 

these were a little hard for me to follow...am i correct in saying his premise is that Atheists have a more structured version of morality than the bible imposes because they have to regulate it themselves?

[sarahinprogress]

 

I knew I would never stop loving her, and no matter what she did I would never want some horrible eternal punishment for her.

 

I feel really pissed when I read about what your father is doing, and I hope that he comes to his senses. Even knowing the way I believed and acted at one time, it's still hard to understand how a bunch of oral-tradition stories about a made-up tribal god could make modern, educated people hurt and alienate the people they love.

I agree with the earlier posts, it will be so much better when you leave. I hope one day your father has if not a conversion, at least a more open mind.

 

Randy

 

Its much better now that hes trying to have rational conversations with me - even though his underlying goal is to show me i'm *wrong* in my 'assumptions' of biblical fallibility. At least he's stopped responding in anger, so far. i didn't know about his belief that the bible may have some faults, but is still the word of god, and that makes getting him to accept that my concerns have merit even harder. Its such a cop-out and yet he cant see that. It's so frustrating.

Its also frustrating that if i want to have a relationship with my father, TALK to him, THIS is really the only thing i can talk about. Nothing else is worthy of his time.

c'est la vie.

 

I dont think i'll be moving out within the next year, since if i get into the nursing program i want to get into, i wont be able to work enough to afford to support myself, but i think i can handle one more year.

[sarahinprogress]

One thing for talking to your dad - don't expect him to deconvert. Don't expect him to change his faith. He won't. He's not going to see inconsistencies, because he can't think that way or he'll go to hell. Instead of talking about inconsistencies, I'd work on tolerance - he has his beliefs, and believes in them solidly - you have your beliefs, and they deserve equal respect - he doesn't have to respect your beliefs, but he should respect your right to believe them. You are an adult, you make your own decisions, find your own path - if a lifetime of church and his teachings aren't enough to guide you eventually to the right path, that's your choice, he's more than had his say, during your entire childhood, and trying to force you as an adult will only push you further away. Ask where it says in the Bible that adults should be forced to go to church, talk about free will, etc. Maybe, if you've got it on top of your head, talk about some biblical story where a son found Jesus and defied his father to follow - to point out that as an adult, you should be following what you think is right.

 

Its not so much that i want him to deconvert (although of course i hope someday he does), or rather i'm not TRYING to deconvert him, but rather trying to show him that i have REASONS for not believing anymore that go beyond "i want to sin and christianity restricts me" or just being a "rebellious child." There's a really interesting video that Electech shared with me called "the Bad parent" by theramintrees on YouTube that discusses the way religion forces a parent-child dichotomy, that really opened my eyes to the way my father treats me. in fact the way he treats everyone.

 

In example: my boyfriends family was going to stay in the mountains this weekend, and invited me. I simply said yes, with no intention of asking for permission from my father. My boyfriend came over one day to drop some stuff off to me and ASKED my father if he could take me to the mountains this weekend, and my father immediately shut him down. Stern, angry voice, serious face, just like you would talk to a young child who has done something naughty. My boyfriend was simply trying to be respectful of the conditions in which i live, and the rules my father has placed over me while i live here. I confronted my father last night about how he treats my boyfriend like a child, and he had no idea what i was talking about, he said "i do?" and looked perplexed.

 

its so sad that his religion not only forces him to treat people with this parent-child dichotomy, but also that it blinds him to the fact that he is doing it.

 

i mean, true, i am forced to live here by my financial situation, and am currently unable to support myself, but that makes me no less of an adult. I can think, ration and DECIDE like an adult, and its time for him to treat me that way!

 

its been hard for me, to actually open my mouth and talk back, protest, argue, contradict, question - because i was raised not to. Daddy was right and that was that, nothing i said contradictory was valid, and he would take apart my arguments piece by piece and point out all the flaws.

 

The interesting thing is my father is the only one i am that way with: any other person who presents me with any kind of argument i will question and object if i disagree.

 

its been very strange learning how to stand up to and talk to my father and stop letting myself be AFRAID of his reaction. His reaction is his choice, or his lack of control. That doesnt mean i have to respond in kind!

 

sorry, i went on a tangent! haha

[sarahinprogress]

as a furthuer aside my father said something last night that made me really sad: "you're my only legacy, you're all i have, if you dont believe then i dont get another chance. Unless you have grandkids and i live to raise them and see them convert"

 

1. because god is all my father has. He thinks life is empty without and apart from god.

2. because as long as i know my father will try to indoctrinate my children, he will not have time alone with them.

3. because he's put so much stock in me turning out like him, that worth is negated now because....i am NOT like him.

 

its so heartbreaking.

[electech98]

Duckie,

 

I found the other day this entry in Wikipedia on Co-dependency, thanks to a suggestion by a fellow ExC member: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Codependency

 

You may need to do more research on codependency, but it sounds like your father probably fits in the same category as my father-in-law, under Control Patterns.

 

Let me say this, though: I'm proud of you for finding your voice and standing up to him!

 

At some point, I'd try to recommend some books for him to read if he is really interested in seeing where you are coming from:

 

1) http://amzn.com/0578003880 - Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary

2) http://amzn.com/B004O6MSY2 - The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager: A Skeptic’s Guide to Christianity (Kindle Edition, much cheaper than the book form)

3) http://amzn.com/B0045EOJU4 - Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks At Old Beliefs in a New Light

[sarahinprogress]

Duckie,

 

I found the other day this entry in Wikipedia on Co-dependency, thanks to a suggestion by a fellow ExC member: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Codependency

 

You may need to do more research on codependency, but it sounds like your father probably fits in the same category as my father-in-law, under Control Patterns.

 

Let me say this, though: I'm proud of you for finding your voice and standing up to him!

 

At some point, I'd try to recommend some books for him to read if he is really interested in seeing where you are coming from:

 

1) http://amzn.com/0578003880 - Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary

2) http://amzn.com/B004O6MSY2 - The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager: A Skeptic’s Guide to Christianity (Kindle Edition, much cheaper than the book form)

3) http://amzn.com/B0045EOJU4 - Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks At Old Beliefs in a New Light

 

Thank you! Im proud of myself, haha. It only took 25 years and near-emotional-breakdown.

I saw that co-dependency thing on the other post! i sent a link to my boyfriend, and we both agree that the control patterns fit my father. Whats interesting is that there are books about co-dependency about the house, and i have never questioned why. Perhaps i should. I just started reading Why I believed, and right now im watching those videos you posted a few weeks ago by QualiaSoup. it's nice to be done with finals =D

[electech98]

Duckie,

 

I found the other day this entry in Wikipedia on Co-dependency, thanks to a suggestion by a fellow ExC member: http://en.wikipedia....ki/Codependency

 

You may need to do more research on codependency, but it sounds like your father probably fits in the same category as my father-in-law, under Control Patterns.

 

Let me say this, though: I'm proud of you for finding your voice and standing up to him!

 

At some point, I'd try to recommend some books for him to read if he is really interested in seeing where you are coming from:

 

1) http://amzn.com/0578003880 - Why I Believed: Reflections of a Former Missionary

2) http://amzn.com/B004O6MSY2 - The Rejection of Pascal’s Wager: A Skeptic’s Guide to Christianity (Kindle Edition, much cheaper than the book form)

3) http://amzn.com/B0045EOJU4 - Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks At Old Beliefs in a New Light

 

Thank you! Im proud of myself, haha. It only took 25 years and near-emotional-breakdown.

I saw that co-dependency thing on the other post! i sent a link to my boyfriend, and we both agree that the control patterns fit my father. Whats interesting is that there are books about co-dependency about the house, and i have never questioned why. Perhaps i should. I just started reading Why I believed, and right now im watching those videos you posted a few weeks ago by QualiaSoup. it's nice to be done with finals =D

Cool...I'll tell you what, I've never read so much in my life than I have in the past 8 months or so leading up to and after my deconversion. But now, it's like a never-ending quest for knowledge!

[sarahinprogress]

 

Cool...I'll tell you what, I've never read so much in my life than I have in the past 8 months or so leading up to and after my deconversion. But now, it's like a never-ending quest for knowledge!

 

Seriously, i need to put a hold on my amazon account, cause i keep going on there and buying new books to read like, "ooo! and this one! Oooh! this!"

[Guest Valk0010]

these were a little hard for me to follow...am i correct in saying his premise is that Atheists have a more structured version of morality than the bible imposes because they have to regulate it themselves?

Have you watched it all, its a annoying thing about Zizek's lectures. It starts making way more sense near the end of what he is saying.

 

I wouldn't called it more structure, just more understanding to what the world actually is, and its able to change if need be. And if we were a a ideology like Christianity we can't do that necessary thing.

[RintrahRoars]

its been very strange learning how to stand up to and talk to my father and stop letting myself be AFRAID of his reaction. His reaction is his choice, or his lack of control. That doesnt mean i have to respond in kind!

 

I'm 25 and somewhat ashamed to admit that I'm still like that with my dad. This summer I will likely have to have some arguments with him and might be physically trembling through some of that.

 

Wish you luck Duckie! No doubt when you make it through this you'll be a much stronger person.

[sarahinprogress]

its been very strange learning how to stand up to and talk to my father and stop letting myself be AFRAID of his reaction. His reaction is his choice, or his lack of control. That doesnt mean i have to respond in kind!

 

I'm 25 and somewhat ashamed to admit that I'm still like that with my dad. This summer I will likely have to have some arguments with him and might be physically trembling through some of that.

 

Wish you luck Duckie! No doubt when you make it through this you'll be a much stronger person.

 

I still feel like that alot, last night was really the first time that i could open my mouth up and SAY stuff back about what i was thinking/feeling.

 

I think the most important thing to remember is that your ACTIONS are your own, and HIS are his own. that was the most important thing for me, anyways. Realizing that he might be saying "because you are doing this, i must act this way" its really just "i must act this way."

 

I think alot of people raised in any kind of fundamental religion are this way BECAUSE of that parent to child relationship the whole thing engenders.

[sarahinprogress]

these were a little hard for me to follow...am i correct in saying his premise is that Atheists have a more structured version of morality than the bible imposes because they have to regulate it themselves?

Have you watched it all, its a annoying thing about Zizek's lectures. It starts making way more sense near the end of what he is saying.

 

I wouldn't called it more structure, just more understanding to what the world actually is, and its able to change if need be. And if we were a a ideology like Christianity we can't do that necessary thing.

I didnt watch them all cause his accent was making it hard for me to concentrate right now: i have a sinus infection and my head is throoobbing.

oooo, i see! i just watch another video about morality being non-religion based. It was very interesting. Especially since i was raised to thnk that god is the source of morality.

[Guest Valk0010]

The are a couple examples, of how christian morality (if it actually exists and is objective) fails.

 

These come to mind immediately.

 

 

http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsTeenPregnancy/dsTeenPregnancy_626px.jpg

[sarahinprogress]

The are a couple examples, of how christian morality (if it actually exists and is objective) fails.

 

 

Oh, thats interesting! i just read a comic about how norway is like 70% atheist, but have one of hte lowest crime rates, highest literacy and educational scores and one of the lowest unemployment rates world wide, and i went "huh, wouldja lookit that."