My Father Is Becoming A Pastor

[Fernweh]

Your father doesn't seem to understand that your marriage will be a legally recognized institution between you and your future spouse by the State of <INSERT STATE OF MARRIAGE LICENSE> and has fuck all to do with his Theocratic ideas of marriage.

[sarahinprogress]

Your father doesn't seem to understand that your marriage will be a legally recognized institution between you and your future spouse by the State of <INSERT STATE OF MARRIAGE LICENSE> and has fuck all to do with his Theocratic ideas of marriage.

right!?!?

[Adrianime]

Ah, I almost cried when i read this.  This crap happens too too often.  I will hopefully be able to give you a real response when I have more time.

[Adrianime]

Ah, I read the original post and didn't realize this was an old thread.  I'm glad things are going well.  Personally I had a pretty jacked up home life growing up and I strongly believe in letting things slide, and forgiving (if I didn't believe in those I probably would have gone crazy by now).  So from my persepective, even if a parent refused to come to my wedding, I wouldn't hold it against them for the rest of their life (like limiting contact, or not sharing grandkids).  I think if your dad is a person who you enjoy the company of, who you care about, and who you like/love, then don't cut him out of your life because of an action he made because of his beliefs.  Only if he becomes a person you don't like/love/care about/want to be around.  If his personality changes to something you can't stand.  Yeah, don't be around him. 

 

Anyways, those are just my thoughts.  But keep in mind, if you still live with your parents, things will change ALOT when you are not dependant on them.  Once you are independant and can look at your parents as near-equals, your way of interacting with them changes.  And how much their actions affects you change.  You still have a few stages of life to go through before you know how you and your father will ultimately get along.  My GF for instance was driven CRAZY by her parents when she lived with them.  Now she talked to at least one of them almost every day on the phone.

[sarahinprogress]

Ah, I read the original post and didn't realize this was an old thread. I'm glad things are going well. Personally I had a pretty jacked up home life growing up and I strongly believe in letting things slide, and forgiving (if I didn't believe in those I probably would have gone crazy by now). So from my persepective, even if a parent refused to come to my wedding, I wouldn't hold it against them for the rest of their life (like limiting contact, or not sharing grandkids). I think if your dad is a person who you enjoy the company of, who you care about, and who you like/love, then don't cut him out of your life because of an action he made because of his beliefs. Only if he becomes a person you don't like/love/care about/want to be around. If his personality changes to something you can't stand. Yeah, don't be around him.

 

Anyways, those are just my thoughts. But keep in mind, if you still live with your parents, things will change ALOT when you are not dependant on them. Once you are independant and can look at your parents as near-equals, your way of interacting with them changes. And how much their actions affects you change. You still have a few stages of life to go through before you know how you and your father will ultimately get along. My GF for instance was driven CRAZY by her parents when she lived with them. Now she talked to at least one of them almost every day on the phone.

yeah, at this point, I can't stand him and barely tolerate him. as an important part of my life I want him to be there and share my life with me, but not if it costs. love shouldn't cost. even according to his religion it should be unconditional. >_< it's just so frustrating and heartbreaking

[alpha centauri]

Duckiegirl, so sorry you are having to go through that. Christianity can be so divisive!

 

I hope for all the best for you and your boyfriend, and hope your dad has a change of heart -- or better yet, sees the light of reason and deconverts himself (although that may be too much to wish for).

 

Hang in there -- there are many of us who have suffered for leaving the falsehoods of christianity behind.

[RipVanWinkle]

Duckiegirl: You have received plenty of advice and I can't think of any that hasn't already been suggested. I just want to tell how sorry I am to hear of these very difficult problems. As others have said, it is not your fault. You should repeat that over and over again 1,000 times. Not really, but it is important for you to know that in the marrow of your bones. Your father is abusing you emotionally. I'm sure he doesn't know it because he has been totally indoctrinated by his religion. He has given up his freedom to think as a human being on matters that he believes is covered by his religion. 

 

There comes a time in everyone's life when she must break the ties with parents. It is part of becoming an adult. My wife had a controlling father and there came a time when she had to let him know that she was in control of her life, not he. I think this is harder for a woman that it is for a man because the ties between a father and a daughter are so very special. I know; I have three daughters, all of whom are adults. I would swear an oath to the devil himself to avoid a serious interference with my relationship with any of my daughters. (I can say this because there is no devil.) You can bet that he is feeling the conflict deeply. Just as you are. But the ties to his religion are so strong because they of governed by fear. But I believe the problem will continue as long as you allow it to. 
By that I don't mean you are to blame. Rather, the tight control over you he is exerting will not be severed unless one of you breaks it. You know it will not be he who does it. So it will be up to you. I can't tell you when to do it. You will have to decide that. But do it you must or nothing will change.

 

I think you can tell that all of of us here feel for you because all know how hard it must be for you. Best of luck and come back here often.            bill

[Akheia]

Good call, Duckie. If he can't make up his mind, then proceed without him. If someone's holding a decision over your head, do whatever you must to remove that person's entire decision from the situation. If Daddy just isn't sure how God will feel the morning of your wedding, then I'd go so far as to say maybe Daddy doesn't need to be there at all.

 

YOU DESERVE people at your wedding to be there because they are 100000% on board with you getting married, are 100000% happy for you, and 100000% thrilled to be there. YOU DESERVE THIS. If any person you might invite might be one-half of one percent not sure he wants to be there, give him a hearty FUCK YOU and have a wonderful day surrounded by the people who actually love YOU, and not your obedience to their agendas.

[electech98]

Duckie,

 

Just so you know, it is really good to hear from you. It seems like forever since we last talked. It is good to see you taking a stand against emotional blackmail from certain family members...sorry that is has to be your dad.

 

Please keep us updated, and I hope your upcoming wedding is totally awesome!

 

Jeremy

[mymistake]

"so that's what happened. this made me decide once and for all that while I do want my father to come I DO NOT want him to walk me

down the aisle. I'm not having him hold his attendance over my head and hold my breathe hoping he decides that he'll come, I don't want to give him the fucking option.

if he can't fucking tell me if he can go or not, because of his beliefs or because of fucking SCHOOL, then he doesn't GET that choice. it gets taken the fuck away."

 

So are you going to do the bride march solo?  I think that is cool.  A woman doesn't need an escort.  The wedding is her day.  All eyes are on the bride for the march anyway.  You might as well do it solo.  Good on you.  I hope that becomes the new trend.

[Ellwood]

I agree doing the march solo is "cool" also.   Imagine the impact as word spreads of why you are walking alone.   Except for a few nuts who may feel your father is to be admired for his sticking to his "faith", most people will feel it is the ultimate shame and condemnation of a religion that would advocate a way of thinking that would keep a father from walking his daughter down the aisle on her wedding day.   

And good for you for doing that, if that is what you decide.

[Akheia]

Haha, yeah, just tell the guests "Yeah, Dad thinks I'm going to hell for legally committing to the man I love and isn't sure he can show support to me on this horrific day. Tragic, isn't it? More champagne?"

 

You know, this is a good time to think about a nice theme wedding. If you're going to blow the old guy's gaskets, might as well go all out. I'm thinking hiring Hell's Angels to march you down the aisle, with shades and fingerless gloves and EVERYTHING, or doing a Nightmare Before Christmas wedding.

[electech98]

By the way, since you and I hail from the same denomination, just thought I'd tell you: my sister-in-law, who lives with us, is trying to leave the church I used to go to for a more low-key, contemporary Reformed church in town. Her reasons for leaving are various, but include things like stodginess, lack of feeling included in the group, lack of positive growth or movement toward getting away from outdated traditions, etc. She had a meeting with the pastor last night...it did not go well. As I expected, he berated her and attempted to make her feel guilty for wanting to leave...basically, it is wounded pride talking. He did the same stuff with me. My SIL's good friend is also leaving that same church, and I'm sure it'll be the same thing - guilt trip after guilt trip for wanting change or wanting to leave instead of really listening to the reasons why.

 

That seems to be common in that denomination - guilted into becoming a member, guilted into keeping your opinions to yourself, guilted when trying to change or leave...guilt, guilt, guilt! I hope you are still not having to go to your dad's church any more. If you are, I'm sure you marriage and moving away can't come fast enough!

[R. S. Martin]

Wonderful thread. Read several pages. Helped me better understand that what I experienced truly was abuse and not just my "not liking certain treatment." The concept of abused kids "loving" their abusive parent also spoke to me. My mother is dead and I'm GLAD. Yet I felt closer and more intimate with her than anyone else. The love-hate relationship was intense and devastatingly confusing. This thread helped with understanding and I agree with Duckiegirl's decisions.

[sarahinprogress]

thank you all for replying!! I'm in bed sick right now, but once I feel a bit better ill get in my computer and respond individually. just to answer a one question:

my best friend has agreed to walk me down the aisle, and I couldn't ask for better person. He is a Christian, but has never EVER made me feel guilty about who I am or what I believe.

I did consider walking alone, but I like this idea much better, because for me walking down the aisle with someone wasnt so much about a handing over of goods, but of a meeting of two parts of my life, and a transition. I think my best friend will fulfill this much better than my father (who once told me that my body was his until I got married and then it belonged to my husband with a completely straight face, not seeing how absolutely twisted that sounded), ever could. ok back to bed rest and fluids for now. I love you all so much!!

[Akheia]

Your wedding is going to be absolutely wonderful without that asshole of a father pushing into it. I couldn't see any way he wouldn't find some way to make it all about him and his twisted religious worldview. Your friend is going to be a better walker and the symbolism will work a lot better because your friends are the ones who have truly loved and supported you in your journey.

 

Get well soon!

[sarahinprogress]

so today at church my father asked my boyfriend and I both to read Romans chapter 12 saying it has to do with our wedding.

so I agreed to read it and all I can gather is "do what god says and everything else is evil."

yah, thanks dad.

looking  forward to what he has to say about it. Im sure it'll be some more bullshit about how he has to follow what gods word says. sigh.

[sarahinprogress]

Duckiegirl, so sorry you are having to go through that. Christianity can be so divisive!

 

I hope for all the best for you and your boyfriend, and hope your dad has a change of heart -- or better yet, sees the light of reason and deconverts himself (although that may be too much to wish for).

 

Hang in there -- there are many of us who have suffered for leaving the falsehoods of christianity behind.

 Thank you!

[sarahinprogress]

Good call, Duckie. If he can't make up his mind, then proceed without him. If someone's holding a decision over your head, do whatever you must to remove that person's entire decision from the situation. If Daddy just isn't sure how God will feel the morning of your wedding, then I'd go so far as to say maybe Daddy doesn't need to be there at all.

 

YOU DESERVE people at your wedding to be there because they are 100000% on board with you getting married, are 100000% happy for you, and 100000% thrilled to be there. YOU DESERVE THIS. If any person you might invite might be one-half of one percent not sure he wants to be there, give him a hearty FUCK YOU and have a wonderful day surrounded by the people who actually love YOU, and not your obedience to their agendas.

THANK you. This is the conclusion that i came too as well. I know i'll be sad on the day if my father does decide not to come, but i also know it wont help me to hold my breath in HOPES that he will come. hence my decision for him to not walk me down the aisle.  Thank you so much for your words of support. they mean so much to me.

 

Duckie,

 

Just so you know, it is really good to hear from you. It seems like forever since we last talked. It is good to see you taking a stand against emotional blackmail from certain family members...sorry that is has to be your dad.

 

Please keep us updated, and I hope your upcoming wedding is totally awesome!

 

Jeremy

Yeah, its tough, but neceassary. Im done letting him use fear to control me, whether he is doing it with that intention or not. I cant let him control me anymore, you know? Im my own person. My mother told him that i chose someone else to give me away and he FREAKED out, had a total emotional meltdown, was sobbing and crying and yelling about how "he can't change gods will" and how hurt he is cause he wanted to give me away more than anything, and all i see is this pathetic man who cant een be accountable for his own actions, he has to blame god. its so sad.

 

"so that's what happened. this made me decide once and for all that while I do want my father to come I DO NOT want him to walk me

down the aisle. I'm not having him hold his attendance over my head and hold my breathe hoping he decides that he'll come, I don't want to give him the fucking option.

 

if he can't fucking tell me if he can go or not, because of his beliefs or because of fucking SCHOOL, then he doesn't GET that choice. it gets taken the fuck away."

 

So are you going to do the bride march solo?  I think that is cool.  A woman doesn't need an escort.  The wedding is her day.  All eyes are on the bride for the march anyway.  You might as well do it solo.  Good on you.  I hope that becomes the new trend.

 

Im not doing a solo march, my best friend will be walking with me, and i cant imagine a better person who loves and supports me more: AND he's a christian lol

I agree doing the march solo is "cool" also.   Imagine the impact as word spreads of why you are walking alone.   Except for a few nuts who may feel your father is to be admired for his sticking to his "faith", most people will feel it is the ultimate shame and condemnation of a religion that would advocate a way of thinking that would keep a father from walking his daughter down the aisle on her wedding day.   

 

And good for you for doing that, if that is what you decide.

 

Yeah, my mother told me that she asked him if he had talked to the Spiritual Council about going to my wedding and they ALL told him, including the pastor told him that he should be very careful and not alienate. 

 

By the way, since you and I hail from the same denomination, just thought I'd tell you: my sister-in-law, who lives with us, is trying to leave the church I used to go to for a more low-key, contemporary Reformed church in town. Her reasons for leaving are various, but include things like stodginess, lack of feeling included in the group, lack of positive growth or movement toward getting away from outdated traditions, etc. She had a meeting with the pastor last night...it did not go well. As I expected, he berated her and attempted to make her feel guilty for wanting to leave...basically, it is wounded pride talking. He did the same stuff with me. My SIL's good friend is also leaving that same church, and I'm sure it'll be the same thing - guilt trip after guilt trip for wanting change or wanting to leave instead of really listening to the reasons why.

 

That seems to be common in that denomination - guilted into becoming a member, guilted into keeping your opinions to yourself, guilted when trying to change or leave...guilt, guilt, guilt! I hope you are still not having to go to your dad's church any more. If you are, I'm sure you marriage and moving away can't come fast enough!

Well thats good news! it was really hard at me in the beginning to not try and convince my parents how wrong they were in their beliefs, but i eventually realized that even when they SAID they wanted to know my reasons all that ever happened was my father telling me how everything i said was wrong and shoving the bible back at me. sigh

 

Wonderful thread. Read several pages. Helped me better understand that what I experienced truly was abuse and not just my "not liking certain treatment." The concept of abused kids "loving" their abusive parent also spoke to me. My mother is dead and I'm GLAD. Yet I felt closer and more intimate with her than anyone else. The love-hate relationship was intense and devastatingly confusing. This thread helped with understanding and I agree with Duckiegirl's decisions.

I totally understand that feeling: sometimes i wish that my father would die, as horrible as that is, because it would be so much easier to just remember him fondly instead of having to deal with the intensity of his love and obsession with god. My relationship with my father has been volatile since puberty, and the intensity of it has been tearing me apart since then as well. It is coming as such a relief to break those binds and break that cycle. Even tho i have accepted that what he has done is emotional abuse, i also dont think he is cognitively  aware of it. It just so sad.

[VacuumFlux]

I totally understand that feeling: sometimes i wish that my father would die, as horrible as that is, because it would be so much easier to just remember him fondly instead of having to deal with the intensity of his love and obsession with god. My relationship with my father has been volatile since puberty, and the intensity of it has been tearing me apart since then as well. It is coming as such a relief to break those binds and break that cycle. Even tho i have accepted that what he has done is emotional abuse, i also dont think he is cognitively  aware of it. It just so sad.

 

My parents were in an accident a few years ago, and I had similar thoughts while they were in the hospital I did feel pretty guilty about it, but I have realized that I can only hate people that I have loved and feel betrayed by. I've never bothered hating anyone that I don't have a strong emotional attachment to. So in a sense, even the intensity of negative emotions is a sign of affection. Once I stop beating myself up with guilt it's easier to look for constructive ways to handle the situation. Sounds like you're doing a good job of that.

[sarahinprogress]

Sounds like you're doing a good job of that.

EXACTLY! I can't allow myself to feel guilty about things that aren't my fault, but it still hurts.

[sarahinprogress]

so anyways, like I said a couple posts up, my boyfriend and I were asked by my father to read Romans chapter 12 as an explanation of why my father feels he can't come to our wedding. We are waiting to talk to my dad about it but moving closer and closer to simply NOT inviting him to the wedding at all.

 

 

any thoughts about the context of romans 12 and/or any possible comebacks.

[Akheia]

What an asshole. The "emotional breakdown" is just part of the manipulation, if you hadn't already realized that. He knew it'd get back to you that he was OH SO UPSET that you called his bluff you refused to let his "decision" potentially ruin your day. I really can't see any way that letting him have even the slightest say in your ceremony would do anything but result in a huge, over-dramatic clusterfuck. You know, Christians seem like they do that a lot--declare that FINE, screw you guys, they're goin' home if they can't get their way, like it's going to ruin us forever, like the mere concept of being deprived of their holy wisdom and glorious presence will shatter us like fine glass--and when we perk up and go "wait, can I get that in writing?" and they realize just how non-essential they were to the whole game, it's like shifting without a clutch. I live for that shocked, gape-jawed look when an asshole realizes he wasn't really that great to have around to begin with and that nobody'll miss him if he flounces off. You are absolutely doing the right thing. You don't want to be in your pretty dress on your special day standing in front of a locked bathroom door pleading and begging with your dickwidget of a dad to come out, you'll do ANYTHING, just please walk you down the aisle and don't ruin the wedding. If he really thought it was that important, he'd have made it clear by now. Instead, it's just another emotion-football he's deploying to try to force you into line. If you were stupid enough to let him walk you down the aisle, you may be assured that at least a few times between now and then, he's going to withdraw his favor to start another argument.

 

With that understood, why do you have to say anything to him about the Bible reading? Tell him that underhanded emotional manipulation is a good part of the reason you left his religion, and leave it at that. You don't even need to thank him for thinking of you. Nobody sensible thanks an abuser for being abusive. Ta-da, one sentence and you're done. Or ignore him entirely.

 

You only have to engage on the terms you set. Like a lot of abusive parents, he's going to do his damndest to draw you into an engagement on his own terms, and if you let that happen, you will get hurt and confused. This is your game. You own the ball. You get to set the rules. In this case, your abuser wants to engage you and draw you out. He's learned over your lifetime exactly what sets you off and gets you to engage with him, and smugly using Bible verses as underhanded criticism is a surefire, tried-and-tested gambit he's likely employed many times in the past. His attempt to get you to reconsider letting him walk you down the aisle failed, so he's going to look for another method--but in the end, he's positive he'll find a way.

 

The only way to win against someone like that is NOT TO PLAY THE GAME.

[sarahinprogress]

What an asshole

yes.

I cried when I read your response. I've been crying on and off for 2 days.

 

because while I had already decided that I don't want my father to walk me down the aisle, I had still intended to invite him to my wedding....and the thought of him not being there kills me inside....because that's it. that's the last wound. that someone who is supposed to love and support me unconditionally would wound me so deeply and justify it with religious fervor....I can't have that in my life, or in the life of my children once I have them.

 

 

I feel like my father is dying, and I am grieving that death, and it hurts so very deeply and messily.

[Adrianime]

 

What an asshole

yes.

I cried when I read your response. I've been crying on and off for 2 days.

 

because while I had already decided that I don't want my father to walk me down the aisle, I had still intended to invite him to my wedding....and the thought of him not being there kills me inside....because that's it. that's the last wound. that someone who is supposed to love and support me unconditionally would wound me so deeply and justify it with religious fervor....I can't have that in my life, or in the life of my children once I have them.

 

 

I feel like my father is dying, and I am grieving that death, and it hurts so very deeply and messily.

 

I think if you have that strong of an emotional connection with your father, you shouldn't write him out of your life completely.  I've never had an emotional attachment or connection to my parents....I don't think it's something you should give up.